'17-'18 POY discussion

[ronnymac2]

Anthony Davis is the new age Kareem. It's the second simplest blueprint to offensive success behind only Shaq's strength. The blueprint is impossible length, elite agility/coordination, and shooting touch. KAJ had it; AD has it. Now stylistically, KAJ was a low-post back-the-the-basket guy who surveyed the floor whereas Davis has an insane motor and is constantly moving around - thus, the new age Kareem. They use the same gifts, but Davis has modernized it for the current metagame.

Impressed by his defense. Davis is leading the playoffs in defensive rebound %; Portland's Ed Davis, a truly elite offensive rebounder, was a putrid offensive rebounder in the 4-game sweep. And that's with Davis also roving around the paint and making deflections and blocks. This dude is crazy.

[mischievous]

I may be getting caught up in the moment, but I’m thinking Davis vs peak KG is a legit discussion at this point. He’s not the defender that KG was...but offensively, he’s almost impossible to stop from getting his, and it’s almost all off ball, from cuts, PnR, PnP, and offensive rebounds. Not the passer that Garnett was...but does that offset the fact that Davis just seems much better as a scorer, without being ball-dominant whatsoever?

Not to mention that although he’s not KG defensively, he’s still one of the best defenders in the league imo.

I can’t go there just yet. Davis while a monster scorer, creates pretty much nothing for his teammates offensively. I mean 1.3 apg/2.5 tov? I know apg ain’t gospel but there’s really nothing by eye test that says he’s creating for others its not like he’s a Dirk who’s gravity opens up teammates. It kind of is reflected in OBPM too, that’s why despite averaging 33 om 64 ts% his OBPM is merely just 3.5. I don’t think it’s even clear cut that he’s better than peak Garnett on offense, and I don’t think he’s even close to Dirk/Barkley on O although he obviously has a huge edge on d.

With that said though i love what I see from him so far, he seems to not be one of those stars who’s performance drops in the playoffs. We’ll see how he does against better competition and better defenses.

[mischievous]

I think up to this exact moment in time my list would be this.

1. Harden- Clearly the best in regular season, has had a weird series so far. One monster game, one bad one, and one alright game. A little inconsistent, but the playoff samples aren’t really enough so far for him to lose the spot.

2. Anthony Davis- Was somewhere between 2-4th at regular season end, led an impressive sweep so he’s done nothing to lose any ground.

3. Giannis- Was top 5 in regular season, has performed well against Boston so shouldn’t lose a spot.

4. Lebron- Worst on/off of his prime and i get it, but i still think he’s performed well enough to make the list. I think people are kind of judging him too much by his own past standards and subconsciously docking him for that. If Lebron was some new guy that put up those numbers people would be looking at him in surprise.

5. Durant- Yeah, I understand that like Lebron his impact numbers weren’t great but from eye test he’s still 85-90% as good as he ever was and that’s clearly better than someone like Oladipo, or Butler when he was healthy. People can downplay the Spurs but Kd is doing what he’s supposed to do against them.

[dhsilv2]

I think up to this exact moment in time my list would be this.

1. Harden- Clearly the best in regular season, has had a weird series so far. One monster game, one bad one, and one alright game. A little inconsistent, but the playoff samples aren’t really enough so far for him to lose the spot.

2. Anthony Davis- Was somewhere between 2-4th at regular season end, led an impressive sweep so he’s done nothing to lose any ground.

3. Giannis- Was top 5 in regular season, has performed well against Boston so shouldn’t lose a spot.

4. Lebron- Worst on/off of his prime and i get it, but i still think he’s performed well enough to make the list. I think people are kind of judging him too much by his own past standards and subconsciously docking him for that. If Lebron was some new guy that put up those numbers people would be looking at him in surprise.

5. Durant- Yeah, I understand that like Lebron his impact numbers weren’t great but from eye test he’s still 85-90% as good as he ever was and that’s clearly better than someone like Oladipo, or Butler when he was healthy. People can downplay the Spurs but Kd is doing what he’s supposed to do against them.

I assume Paul, Curry and butler are largely out due to missed time for you, so how close do you see KD and Oladipo? To be honest I'm struggling with KD over both Lowry (who yea tends to drop in the playoffs) and Lillard (who is out), but I see good cases to drop them. I'm not so sure I see what KD did better than Oladipo this year.

[mischievous]

I think up to this exact moment in time my list would be this.

1. Harden- Clearly the best in regular season, has had a weird series so far. One monster game, one bad one, and one alright game. A little inconsistent, but the playoff samples aren’t really enough so far for him to lose the spot.

2. Anthony Davis- Was somewhere between 2-4th at regular season end, led an impressive sweep so he’s done nothing to lose any ground.

3. Giannis- Was top 5 in regular season, has performed well against Boston so shouldn’t lose a spot.

4. Lebron- Worst on/off of his prime and i get it, but i still think he’s performed well enough to make the list. I think people are kind of judging him too much by his own past standards and subconsciously docking him for that. If Lebron was some new guy that put up those numbers people would be looking at him in surprise.

5. Durant- Yeah, I understand that like Lebron his impact numbers weren’t great but from eye test he’s still 85-90% as good as he ever was and that’s clearly better than someone like Oladipo, or Butler when he was healthy. People can downplay the Spurs but Kd is doing what he’s supposed to do against them.

I assume Paul, Curry and butler are largely out due to missed time for you, so how close do you see KD and Oladipo? To be honest I'm struggling with KD over both Lowry (who yea tends to drop in the playoffs) and Lillard (who is out), but I see good cases to drop them. I'm not so sure I see what KD did better than Oladipo this year.

Curry would easily be in there if he was healthy yeah. Paul might’ve been. Butler, no.

Lillard has no case over Kd at this point. He just put up one of the worst performances from a supposed superstar that i can recall in a playoff series. As for Lowry you are a box score guy right? He just put up a sub-20 PER season, that isn’t close to top 5 caliber.

[dhsilv2]

I think up to this exact moment in time my list would be this.

1. Harden- Clearly the best in regular season, has had a weird series so far. One monster game, one bad one, and one alright game. A little inconsistent, but the playoff samples aren’t really enough so far for him to lose the spot.

2. Anthony Davis- Was somewhere between 2-4th at regular season end, led an impressive sweep so he’s done nothing to lose any ground.

3. Giannis- Was top 5 in regular season, has performed well against Boston so shouldn’t lose a spot.

4. Lebron- Worst on/off of his prime and i get it, but i still think he’s performed well enough to make the list. I think people are kind of judging him too much by his own past standards and subconsciously docking him for that. If Lebron was some new guy that put up those numbers people would be looking at him in surprise.

5. Durant- Yeah, I understand that like Lebron his impact numbers weren’t great but from eye test he’s still 85-90% as good as he ever was and that’s clearly better than someone like Oladipo, or Butler when he was healthy. People can downplay the Spurs but Kd is doing what he’s supposed to do against them.

I assume Paul, Curry and butler are largely out due to missed time for you, so how close do you see KD and Oladipo? To be honest I'm struggling with KD over both Lowry (who yea tends to drop in the playoffs) and Lillard (who is out), but I see good cases to drop them. I'm not so sure I see what KD did better than Oladipo this year.

Curry would easily be in there if he was healthy yeah. Paul might’ve been. Butler, no.

Lillard has no case over Kd at this point. He just put up one of the worst performances from a supposed superstar that i can recall in a playoff series. As for Lowry you are a box score guy right? He just put up a sub-20 PER season, that isn’t close to top 5 caliber.

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

[mischievous]

I assume Paul, Curry and butler are largely out due to missed time for you, so how close do you see KD and Oladipo? To be honest I'm struggling with KD over both Lowry (who yea tends to drop in the playoffs) and Lillard (who is out), but I see good cases to drop them. I'm not so sure I see what KD did better than Oladipo this year.

Curry would easily be in there if he was healthy yeah. Paul might’ve been. Butler, no.

Lillard has no case over Kd at this point. He just put up one of the worst performances from a supposed superstar that i can recall in a playoff series. As for Lowry you are a box score guy right? He just put up a sub-20 PER season, that isn’t close to top 5 caliber.

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

[dhsilv2]

Curry would easily be in there if he was healthy yeah. Paul might’ve been. Butler, no.

Lillard has no case over Kd at this point. He just put up one of the worst performances from a supposed superstar that i can recall in a playoff series. As for Lowry you are a box score guy right? He just put up a sub-20 PER season, that isn’t close to top 5 caliber.

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

I asked how close you see him man. I'm just trying to get a gauge on someone I think is pretty close regular season and is also having a good playoff run and I know you value playoffs 1000x more than I do. Just looking for your views not an argument.

[mischievous]

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

I asked how close you see him man. I'm just trying to get a gauge on someone I think is pretty close regular season and is also having a good playoff run and I know you value playoffs 1000x more than I do. Just looking for your views not an argument.

I mean it’s close, but i have no doubt in my mind that KD is still better at basketball. I don’t think a small playoff sample for each one is changing much, they are both doing their thing in the playoffs so far.

[ardee]

Anyone think the Pelicans can give the Warriors some serious trouble, especially if Curry doesn't return?

I wouldn't read too much into their performance against the Spurs, the Spurs shouldn't even really have been in the Playoffs, besides Aldridge their only creator is a 41 year old Manu.

Tbh it's weird but the Warriors look worse now than they did in 2016 without Curry.

[dhsilv2]

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

I asked how close you see him man. I'm just trying to get a gauge on someone I think is pretty close regular season and is also having a good playoff run and I know you value playoffs 1000x more than I do. Just looking for your views not an argument.

I mean it’s close, but i have no doubt in my mind that KD is still better at basketball. I don’t think a small playoff sample for each one is changing much, they are both doing their thing in the playoffs so far.

But lets say the pacers make the conference finals without any absurd "WOW" games, can he catch him?

[dhsilv2]

Anyone think the Pelicans can give the Warriors some serious trouble, especially if Curry doesn't return?

I wouldn't read too much into their performance against the Spurs, the Spurs shouldn't even really have been in the Playoffs, besides Aldridge their only creator is a 41 year old Manu.

Tbh it's weird but the Warriors look worse now than they did in 2016 without Curry.

Aldrige is a legit all nba guy and they spurs had some other quality young guys. They're by no means a bad 7 seed.

AD put up huge numbers in 15 or 16 (think it was 15) against the warriors but their game plan was to pretty much let him beat them if he could...and he couldn't. Can holiday score enough?

I honestly feel like I don't get who this second half of the year holiday is so it's hard to say, but my gut says Dray will step up if things get close and will win the series for the warriors.

[Outside]

Anyone think the Pelicans can give the Warriors some serious trouble, especially if Curry doesn't return?

I wouldn't read too much into their performance against the Spurs, the Spurs shouldn't even really have been in the Playoffs, besides Aldridge their only creator is a 41 year old Manu.

Tbh it's weird but the Warriors look worse now than they did in 2016 without Curry.

I do think the Pelicans are a quality team. If Curry doesn't return, I still give the Warriors the edge, but it won't be easy, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that New Orleans wins.

I have a much different take on the Warriors and Spurs performance so far. The Spurs are outclassed talent-wise and the Warriors are a bad matchup for them, but the Spurs compete and put in good defensive effort. Going into today's game, the Warriors had the best ORtg and the second best DRtg of any team in the playoffs. They've obviously take a hit on those after game 4, but they've been playing pretty well. They show the poise of a championship team, weathering runs by the Spurs with the confidence that they'll have the advantage over the entire 48 minutes. Durant and Klay have been carrying the bulk of the scoring load, but lots of other guys are making significant contributions. Iguodala has flipped his personal switch and looks miles better than he did in the regular season. The defense has come together well after spending the last month of the regular season in a coma. They have room to improve, and they'll never reach 2017 playoff peak performance levels without Curry, but they look much better without Curry than they did in the regular season. In game 4, San Antonio shot great on threes (15-28) and the Warriors didn't (7-28). It happens. San Antonio played desperate and with emotion in front of the home crowd, and the Warriors came back but couldn't get all the way over the hump.

The Pels have great momentum, but the Warriors are a whole different thing compared to Portland. The Trailblazers would only go as far as Lillard and McCollum would take them, and Holiday and Rondo were able to disrupt them. Lillard and McCollum rely on a lot of isolation, and good defensive guard play backed by Anthony Davis turned that into ineffective offense. Mirotic stepped up in a big way. But their rotation is short, with Davis, Holiday, Rondo, and Mirotic all averaging 35 MPG or more, Moore averaging 28, Darius Miller averaging 18, and Solomon Hill averaging 14. Minutes distribution on the Warriors is more spread out and goes nine-deep, and that's not including Curry. In a long series, that means the Warriors can wear them down.

Durant is also an issue. New Orleans doesn't have a good defender at forward like they have at guard, and they can't shut down his jumper and funnel him to Davis like they did to Lillard and McCollum. Klay is also not as vulnerable to defense by Rondo and Holiday because he's taller than Lillard and McCollum, works off the ball using screens far more, and is a catch and shoot guy while Lillard and McCollum depend on their iso magic.

The Warriors don't have anyone to stop Davis, but if Davis gets his and they limit everyone else, Golden State wins.

The regular season games aren't that useful for previewing the series because three of the four matchups occurred before the end of November, which is both really early and the version of the team with Cousins. The fourth meeting was right before the end of the season, when the Warriors were in waiting-for-the-playoffs mode.

We'll see when Curry comes back and how effective he is when he returns. I hope they keep him out until he's able to hold up through the rest of the playoff run, unlike in 2016, when he did great in his comeback game but was visibly limited by the finals.

Should be interesting. The Pels are an easy team to root for, though in my case, I'm a fan of the other team.

[Unbiased hater]

Pelicans were on the 5-0 streak before playoff and with these 4 games its 9 wins streak now . My opinion is that on the streaks players are always better then they really are and when they lose they return to the reality and start to play like they played before that so if Pelicans lose first game they're finished and it's gonna be 4-0 or 4-1 but if they win first they have a chance. If they win first two games then their chances to upset the Warrioirs are growing significantly.

[therealbig3]

Curry would easily be in there if he was healthy yeah. Paul might’ve been. Butler, no.

Lillard has no case over Kd at this point. He just put up one of the worst performances from a supposed superstar that i can recall in a playoff series. As for Lowry you are a box score guy right? He just put up a sub-20 PER season, that isn’t close to top 5 caliber.

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

Warriors underperforming is part of it, Oladipo also has better +/-, and Oladipo was the leader of a really solid Pacers squad that nobody expected to make the playoffs this year without George...and they ended up being better than the team George ended up going to, and it's mainly because of Oladipo. He just had a horrible game, but he was murdering the Cavs before that, and their defensive gameplan is focused on him, and they've resorted to doubling him just to get the ball out of his hands, because nobody on their team has any chance of stopping him 1 on 1.

KD is the more talented player, but in terms of actual results this season, I don't think he's played as well as Oladipo.

[iggymcfrack]

Feel like at this point, it's gotta be:

1) James Harden: Hasn't had the best start to the playoffs, but certainly hasn't played bad enough in 3 games to wipe out his entire lead from the regular season where he was clearly the best in the league. And he did have a really massive impact when it mattered in Game 1.

2) Anthony Davis: Had him basically tied with Giannis going into the playoffs, and he's created a tiny bit of separation with the sweep over Portland even though Giannis has played well also.

3) Giannis Antetokounmpo: Was one of the 3 best players in the regular season, has been one of the 3 best players in the playoffs. If the Bucks could come back to win the series with Boston, his stock could still rise.

4) LeBron James: Has been the second best player of the playoffs behind AD and will likely rise if he continues to play at this level and his team continues to advance. Certainly hasn't done enough to jump Giannis yet though.

5) Victor Oladipo: Had him in this spot to finish the regular season, and his postseason performances have only solidified it. He had a little bit of a poor game tonight, but overall has been the driving force behind a very spirited challenge in the 4/5 matchup just like he was the driving force for them to be in playoff position all season long.

Honorable mention (players who have a decent chance to move into the Top 5 as the playoffs move along): Chris Paul, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Joel Embiid

Still in the race for Top 5, but barely: Kyle Lowry, Demar Derozan, Ben Simmons, Paul George, Rudy Gobert, Jimmy Butler, Karl Anthony Towns

[INKtastic]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

[mischievous]

None of that was my question about Oladipo which was really all I wanted to discuss. I just went through other players who I could consider and kinda checked off the rest of the list.

PER is a horrible metric btw, just want to make sure that we all understand it is a nice offensive metric and not much else.

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

Warriors underperforming is part of it, Oladipo also has better +/-, and Oladipo was the leader of a really solid Pacers squad that nobody expected to make the playoffs this year without George...and they ended up being better than the team George ended up going to, and it's mainly because of Oladipo. He just had a horrible game, but he was murdering the Cavs before that, and their defensive gameplan is focused on him, and they've resorted to doubling him just to get the ball out of his hands, because nobody on their team has any chance of stopping him 1 on 1.

KD is the more talented player, but in terms of actual results this season, I don't think he's played as well as Oladipo.

I mean the Warriors still winning 58 games is considered underperforming, that just shows how high expectations are. I don’t know much we can blame KD though, he pretty much put up the same type of numbers last year and he was pretty much a consensus top 5 then. If you switch them places, do you really think that KD doesn’t get that Pacers to 48 wins or more? I think KD in his place beats the Cavs comfortably. Speaking of which, looking closer at Oladipo in this series he strikes me as someone with mediocre or even poor shot selection at times. The only real case for him is +/-, and well situations have a lot to do with that. It’s easier to showcase impact on a team that would be crap without you.

I think by the time the playoffs are over, no one will be entertaining Oladipo>Kd anymore.

And oh btw, i have a feeling this will be a Tmac-esque outlier for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he shouldn’t be ranked x y or z but I hear from a lot of posters how Tmac’s peak doesn’t stack up to someone like Kobe or Wade because it was such an outlier.

[MisterHibachi]

Dipo is already struggling immensely after the monster game 1. Cavs have really took him out of his game with aggressive traps, and he's missing counters to it, although you can also partly blame coaching for it.

[therealbig3]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

His defense has been awful for most of the year, and while he put up nice stat lines in games 3 and 4, he was invisible for most of the 2nd half offensively in both games. They lost game 3 mainly because of how ineffective he was, and they almost lost game 4 for the same reason.