'17-'18 POY discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

If by "advance stats" you mean "stuff that was considered advanced before regression statistics changed the game a decade ago", sure. By any form of +/- stats what we see this year is that after a decade plus of LeBron having GOAT level impact, he's become a lot more iffy this year.

There's no doubt that LeBron since his return to Cleveland has utterly mastered the way to rack up huge production with high individual efficiency. He's now become Wilt-like in his ability to rack up numbers no matter how deflated the rest of his teammates get.

For me, LeBron's POY candidacy these past few years have largely been determined based on his proof that he's making his team very effective when he needs to. The Cav culture has been a trainwreck in this time, but as long as LeBron either won it all or lost to GS, in the end it's hard to rank others ahead of him. If that continues this year, the final rankings will tell a similar story for me.

But LeBron made this bed, and his actual accomplishment should be tied to it, in my opinion. I'm done with anything that resembles an excuse of bad teammates. Either he makes his team elite, whoever has survived to the end of the season in the Land, or he does not. If he does not, it's absurd to insist the buck stop elsewhere.

[Doctor MJ]

Some thoughts right now:

Man, Portland. Not like I had high hopes for them to become contenders, but I really liked their Dame-led attitude. In the old days before free agency was so crazy, teams could have pride even if they weren't contenders. They could be "pretty good" but trying their hardest beloved by their city. The Grizzlies achieved something like in recent years. The Blazers gave off the same vibe, but with a core so young, and talking with such ambition, you knew things would be precarious.

I think it's going to be hard for Portland to keep a good attitude after getting swept as a 3 seed by a 6 seed who was missing a core player, and who wasn't themselves seen as a true contender when healthy. Lillard still seems to be talking like he believes he can lead a title contender, and I think at this point it won't take that much for teammates to start rolling their eyes at him. Too bad.

New Orleans should be thrilled, but they also have a dilemma. Because of course they do.

Cousins is finally on a playoff team, that playoff team wildly outperforms expectations as the key players kick it up a new level, and of course all that good news is happening as players pick up the slack after his injury. There is a VERY real chance here that NO's best move would be to simply let Cousins walk away rather than sign him to a veteran max.

But it's hard to see the NO front office doing that. No one really thinks NO will be a serious contender with just a Davis/Holiday star core. If you have the ability to keep a talent like Cousins, and the players seem like they like each other, you almost have to do it, but I won't be surprised if the play we see right now is better than what we ever get from the Davis/Cousins core.

I remain concerns about Houston. I'd still bet on them in any series against any other team currently playing in the playoffs (meaning, GS without Curry), but I'm not seeing signs of them being "a level above" in playoff competition. I'll still be shocked in Minnesota wins, but Houston losing in any series after this doesn't seem crazy.

I feel analogously about Toronto. The difference being that I never thought Toronto was a serious championship contender unless the Western champion had a major injury. This though clearly seems like the year for Toronto to make the finals if they are ever going to, and here they are tied 2-2 in the first round matchup with an 8 seed that almost seems like it is trying to self-destruct.

I feel like LeBron now looks at his own team and says "Yeah, this is the year we don't make the finals", but then looks back at the #1 seed in the East and thinks, "Yeah, but if I can suffer through enough pain, I can still probably beat the Raptors by myself.", and I'd have to agree. Toronto playing their best ought to be able to beat these Cavs, and but seems likely they'll wilt if the Cavs get there with LeBron still appearing to be at roughly 100%.

Philly is the team I'm thinking most about. The reality is, they've been playing the most effective ball in the entire league and their championship-level star talent is undeniable. What we're all undoubtedly thinking though, I know I am, is: "Yeah, but they are too green. There's going to be some snag that takes them down before they get too far."

What I have to say admit though, is that I wouldn't bet on it, there isn't any team currently playing I couldn't see Philly beating.

That is tremendously exciting, and will be exciting going to the off-season even if Brad Stevens performs some magic trick and Philly manages to lose in the 2nd round. We have all of these super-exciting young talents in the league, but of them, Philly is the one who seems to have figured out what it takes to win, and they've done so far quicker than I expected.

An interesting question I'm pondering, even though I'm not expecting it: Could one of Embiid or Simmons end up #1 on my POY list?

Sounds crazy, but if they keep winning...

[Doctor MJ]

Well I don’t see why Oladipo should be ahead of KD, is it because of the Warriors underperforming in the regular season?

Warriors underperforming is part of it, Oladipo also has better +/-, and Oladipo was the leader of a really solid Pacers squad that nobody expected to make the playoffs this year without George...and they ended up being better than the team George ended up going to, and it's mainly because of Oladipo. He just had a horrible game, but he was murdering the Cavs before that, and their defensive gameplan is focused on him, and they've resorted to doubling him just to get the ball out of his hands, because nobody on their team has any chance of stopping him 1 on 1.

KD is the more talented player, but in terms of actual results this season, I don't think he's played as well as Oladipo.

I mean the Warriors still winning 58 games is considered underperforming, that just shows how high expectations are. I don’t know much we can blame KD though, he pretty much put up the same type of numbers last year and he was pretty much a consensus top 5 then. If you switch them places, do you really think that KD doesn’t get that Pacers to 48 wins or more? I think KD in his place beats the Cavs comfortably. Speaking of which, looking closer at Oladipo in this series he strikes me as someone with mediocre or even poor shot selection at times. The only real case for him is +/-, and well situations have a lot to do with that. It’s easier to showcase impact on a team that would be crap without you.

I think by the time the playoffs are over, no one will be entertaining Oladipo>Kd anymore.

And oh btw, i have a feeling this will be a Tmac-esque outlier for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he shouldn’t be ranked x y or z but I hear from a lot of posters how Tmac’s peak doesn’t stack up to someone like Kobe or Wade because it was such an outlier.

In the regular season, Durant only participated in 49 wins to Oladipo's 48. This despite the fact that Durant had the benefit of playing with Curry in a lot of those game, to say nothing of the rest of the cast.

To me it's really clear who accomplished more in the regular season between the two. Doesn't mean that I'd draft Oladipo ahead of Durant, and doesn't mean that Durant won't be higher on my POY list when all is said an done, but Durant really doesn't belong in Top 5 consideration based on the regular season alone in my opinion. That's just how it goes. When you're not forced to give 100% all regular season on, a lot of times you just don't add as much as those who do.

And this, combined with the focus placed on the playoffs, is the reason why having this POY award is so much better than focusing on the regular season MVP.

[Doctor MJ]

Anyone think the Pelicans can give the Warriors some serious trouble, especially if Curry doesn't return?

I wouldn't read too much into their performance against the Spurs, the Spurs shouldn't even really have been in the Playoffs, besides Aldridge their only creator is a 41 year old Manu.

Tbh it's weird but the Warriors look worse now than they did in 2016 without Curry.

Can't wait to see. My gut tells me that when push comes to shove GS can just plain outclass anyone in the West other than Houston even without Curry, but that's why they play the game.

I'll add that I'd love to see this Davis/Holiday Pel team emerge as a true contender-level team. Not something I expect even now, but I'd enjoy seeing it.

[mischievous]

Warriors underperforming is part of it, Oladipo also has better +/-, and Oladipo was the leader of a really solid Pacers squad that nobody expected to make the playoffs this year without George...and they ended up being better than the team George ended up going to, and it's mainly because of Oladipo. He just had a horrible game, but he was murdering the Cavs before that, and their defensive gameplan is focused on him, and they've resorted to doubling him just to get the ball out of his hands, because nobody on their team has any chance of stopping him 1 on 1.

KD is the more talented player, but in terms of actual results this season, I don't think he's played as well as Oladipo.

I mean the Warriors still winning 58 games is considered underperforming, that just shows how high expectations are. I don’t know much we can blame KD though, he pretty much put up the same type of numbers last year and he was pretty much a consensus top 5 then. If you switch them places, do you really think that KD doesn’t get that Pacers to 48 wins or more? I think KD in his place beats the Cavs comfortably. Speaking of which, looking closer at Oladipo in this series he strikes me as someone with mediocre or even poor shot selection at times. The only real case for him is +/-, and well situations have a lot to do with that. It’s easier to showcase impact on a team that would be crap without you.

I think by the time the playoffs are over, no one will be entertaining Oladipo>Kd anymore.

And oh btw, i have a feeling this will be a Tmac-esque outlier for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he shouldn’t be ranked x y or z but I hear from a lot of posters how Tmac’s peak doesn’t stack up to someone like Kobe or Wade because it was such an outlier.

In the regular season, Durant only participated in 49 wins to Oladipo's 48. This despite the fact that Durant had the benefit of playing with Curry in a lot of those game, to say nothing of the rest of the cast.

To me it's really clear who accomplished more in the regular season between the two. Doesn't mean that I'd draft Oladipo ahead of Durant, and doesn't mean that Durant won't be higher on my POY list when all is said an done, but Durant really doesn't belong in Top 5 consideration based on the regular season alone in my opinion. That's just how it goes. When you're not forced to give 100% all regular season on, a lot of times you just don't add as much as those who do.

And this, combined with the focus placed on the playoffs, is the reason why having this POY award is so much better than focusing on the regular season MVP.

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

[iggymcfrack]

Anyone think the Pelicans can give the Warriors some serious trouble, especially if Curry doesn't return?

I wouldn't read too much into their performance against the Spurs, the Spurs shouldn't even really have been in the Playoffs, besides Aldridge their only creator is a 41 year old Manu.

Tbh it's weird but the Warriors look worse now than they did in 2016 without Curry.

Can't wait to see. My gut tells me that when push comes to shove GS can just plain outclass anyone in the West other than Houston even without Curry, but that's why they play the game.

I'll add that I'd love to see this Davis/Holiday Pel team emerge as a true contender-level team. Not something I expect even now, but I'd enjoy seeing it.

I think if Curry comes back in Game 3 or even Game 4, the Warriors should ultimately be fine even if it takes them 6 or 7 to win. However, if Curry misses any more time that, I think Golden State could be in real, real trouble. I’m honestly not sure who’s a better team between the Pelicans with Davis/Holiday/Mirotic and the Warriors with Durant/Thompson/Green. Those look like pretty evenly matched Big 3s to me with Davis’s superiority over Durant matching the Warriors edge with supporting players.

Say the teams split the first 2 games. Curry comes back in Game 3, plays 24 minutes in a loss; then next game tries to push his knee to play big minutes and re-tweaks it and has to go the sideline. All of a sudden, the Warriors could be facing down a 3-1 hole with no idea when their star’s going to return. Or he could come back and not be moving right and not getting the proper lift on his shot and finish 3/16 and actually hurt the Ws. So yes, if the injury recovery goes exactly as planned, I think the Warriors should be able to dispatch of the Pelicans in probably 6 games, but any little hiccup with that recovery timeline, and it could be anyone’s series.

[dhsilv2]

Dipo is already struggling immensely after the monster game 1. Cavs have really took him out of his game with aggressive traps, and he's missing counters to it, although you can also partly blame coaching for it.

He was even last night still +/- 0 for the game. They lost the game with him off the floor.

[INKtastic]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

His defense has been awful for most of the year, and while he put up nice stat lines in games 3 and 4, he was invisible for most of the 2nd half offensively in both games. They lost game 3 mainly because of how ineffective he was, and they almost lost game 4 for the same reason.

Like I said "If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at the top." No other player gets held to the ridiculous standards that if they don't score 8 or so points in any single quarter, it's held against him.

LeBron is leading the league in playoff points per game in the first quarter, 2nd in playoff points per game in the 2nd quarter, he's 3rd in playoff points per game in the 4th quarter (two different players ahead of him in the 4th quarter than the 2nd quarter). But instead of looking at all of that, rip him because he's not dominating scoring in all 4 quarters while playing 42 minutes/game at age 33. Wha's the low bar for excellence, 40 ppg?

[MisterHibachi]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

If by "advance stats" you mean "stuff that was considered advanced before regression statistics changed the game a decade ago", sure. By any form of +/- stats what we see this year is that after a decade plus of LeBron having GOAT level impact, he's become a lot more iffy this year.

There's no doubt that LeBron since his return to Cleveland has utterly mastered the way to rack up huge production with high individual efficiency. He's now become Wilt-like in his ability to rack up numbers no matter how deflated the rest of his teammates get.

For me, LeBron's POY candidacy these past few years have largely been determined based on his proof that he's making his team very effective when he needs to. The Cav culture has been a trainwreck in this time, but as long as LeBron either won it all or lost to GS, in the end it's hard to rank others ahead of him. If that continues this year, the final rankings will tell a similar story for me.

But LeBron made this bed, and his actual accomplishment should be tied to it, in my opinion. I'm done with anything that resembles an excuse of bad teammates. Either he makes his team elite, whoever has survived to the end of the season in the Land, or he does not. If he does not, it's absurd to insist the buck stop elsewhere.

This kind of reads to me as you saying you're not gonna look at the context LeBron is playing in because to some extent he chose it (I would argue against that too, but whatever). How can you have a meaningful evaluation of any player if you're basically ignoring on-court context. By this logic you could literally not watch LeBron all year, tune into the finals, see how he plays and make your judgment there. You won't know him any better as a player doing this than if you just read a wikipedia summary of his season. It feels no different than ring-counting, with little regard for the process and only for outcomes.

I've read your points the past few months regarding LeBron's off-court culture influence, most of which I won't argue with, but I feel you're veering too far into weighing off-court drama over on-court play. It matters that LeBron has a lot of locker room power, but not everything about the Cavs' on-court play can be attributed to LeBron being LeBron off-court. Decisions and outcomes on the court do matter and I haven't really seen you engage with the Cavs on that level without blaming it on LeBron's off-court drama.

I apologize if I seem combative here, but as I said, I think you're weighing off-court stuff too much at the expense of seeing the real strengths/weaknesses of his teammates and the context he's playing in.

[Doctor MJ]

I mean the Warriors still winning 58 games is considered underperforming, that just shows how high expectations are. I don’t know much we can blame KD though, he pretty much put up the same type of numbers last year and he was pretty much a consensus top 5 then. If you switch them places, do you really think that KD doesn’t get that Pacers to 48 wins or more? I think KD in his place beats the Cavs comfortably. Speaking of which, looking closer at Oladipo in this series he strikes me as someone with mediocre or even poor shot selection at times. The only real case for him is +/-, and well situations have a lot to do with that. It’s easier to showcase impact on a team that would be crap without you.

I think by the time the playoffs are over, no one will be entertaining Oladipo>Kd anymore.

And oh btw, i have a feeling this will be a Tmac-esque outlier for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he shouldn’t be ranked x y or z but I hear from a lot of posters how Tmac’s peak doesn’t stack up to someone like Kobe or Wade because it was such an outlier.

In the regular season, Durant only participated in 49 wins to Oladipo's 48. This despite the fact that Durant had the benefit of playing with Curry in a lot of those game, to say nothing of the rest of the cast.

To me it's really clear who accomplished more in the regular season between the two. Doesn't mean that I'd draft Oladipo ahead of Durant, and doesn't mean that Durant won't be higher on my POY list when all is said an done, but Durant really doesn't belong in Top 5 consideration based on the regular season alone in my opinion. That's just how it goes. When you're not forced to give 100% all regular season on, a lot of times you just don't add as much as those who do.

And this, combined with the focus placed on the playoffs, is the reason why having this POY award is so much better than focusing on the regular season MVP.

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

[INKtastic]

In the regular season, Durant only participated in 49 wins to Oladipo's 48. This despite the fact that Durant had the benefit of playing with Curry in a lot of those game, to say nothing of the rest of the cast.

To me it's really clear who accomplished more in the regular season between the two. Doesn't mean that I'd draft Oladipo ahead of Durant, and doesn't mean that Durant won't be higher on my POY list when all is said an done, but Durant really doesn't belong in Top 5 consideration based on the regular season alone in my opinion. That's just how it goes. When you're not forced to give 100% all regular season on, a lot of times you just don't add as much as those who do.

And this, combined with the focus placed on the playoffs, is the reason why having this POY award is so much better than focusing on the regular season MVP.

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

aren't you using the same argument you ignored when I used it to claim LeBron has been more valuable than Harden? Harden had 9 more wins on a team that had a massive supporting case. If I recall, Paul was your #2 choice for MVP. You wouldn't even engage in the idea that not playing at all can't be more valuable than another guy having a few sub standard game.

And I see Harden is once again underperforming in the playoffs. WHo's not surprised by that?

[Doctor MJ]

Pretty much all advanced stats have LeBron as 1st or 2nd best player this season. They all have him as the best player in the playoffs, some by a mile, so he’s #4 or lower on everyone’s list? If the exact same season + playoffs was being done by any other player, they would be right at wthe top.

From my post in the LeBron thread.

In this eyar’s Playoffs, LeBron has the best PER, best win share, best value over replacement player, best defensive rebounder, most minutes played. Offensive rating 5th in the league, deffensive rating 3rd in the league. 2nd in the league lead in total points and rebounds. Close enough in both that a single putback basket at any point in the playoffs would put him in the lead in both categories.

He is having his best playoffs ever in rebounding, his second best in assists and his 3rd best at scoring. His playoff PER is 2nd best of his career behind his insane year in 09.

If by "advance stats" you mean "stuff that was considered advanced before regression statistics changed the game a decade ago", sure. By any form of +/- stats what we see this year is that after a decade plus of LeBron having GOAT level impact, he's become a lot more iffy this year.

There's no doubt that LeBron since his return to Cleveland has utterly mastered the way to rack up huge production with high individual efficiency. He's now become Wilt-like in his ability to rack up numbers no matter how deflated the rest of his teammates get.

For me, LeBron's POY candidacy these past few years have largely been determined based on his proof that he's making his team very effective when he needs to. The Cav culture has been a trainwreck in this time, but as long as LeBron either won it all or lost to GS, in the end it's hard to rank others ahead of him. If that continues this year, the final rankings will tell a similar story for me.

But LeBron made this bed, and his actual accomplishment should be tied to it, in my opinion. I'm done with anything that resembles an excuse of bad teammates. Either he makes his team elite, whoever has survived to the end of the season in the Land, or he does not. If he does not, it's absurd to insist the buck stop elsewhere.

This kind of reads to me as you saying you're not gonna look at the context LeBron is playing in because to some extent he chose it (I would argue against that too, but whatever). How can you have a meaningful evaluation of any player if you're basically ignoring on-court context. By this logic you could literally not watch LeBron all year, tune into the finals, see how he plays and make your judgment there. You won't know him any better as a player doing this than if you just read a wikipedia summary of his season. It feels no different than ring-counting, with little regard for the process and only for outcomes.

I've read your points the past few months regarding LeBron's off-court culture influence, most of which I won't argue with, but I feel you're veering too far into weighing off-court drama over on-court play. It matters that LeBron has a lot of locker room power, but not everything about the Cavs' on-court play can be attributed to LeBron being LeBron off-court. Decisions and outcomes on the court do matter and I haven't really seen you engage with the Cavs on that level without blaming it on LeBron's off-court drama.

I apologize if I seem combative here, but as I said, I think you're weighing off-court stuff too much at the expense of seeing the real strengths/weaknesses of his teammates and the context he's playing in.

It's all part of the same phenomenon yes, but I'm not the one ignoring context. That would be all the folks who refuse to deal with the fact that LeBron made this bed. In any other profession that would be absurd. If a start-up founder demands control over personnel decisions and then produces mediocre work, it impresses no one if he says "Yeah all the people I hired sucked, but check it out, I did all of this by myself!", and it doesn't make said founder look any better if he effectively got the same place just by being a passive aggressive prick.

LeBron chose to use his leverage to take control over the franchise he played for, and in doing so the only reasonable way to evaluate his accomplishment is in how the franchise does. Refusing to do that leaves us in a position where we actually praise him more the more he just does everything himself despite the fact that we know that that can lower a team's ceiling.

As others have pointed out, so long as LeBron's team keeps being elite when it counts, this won't really matter to people. But the very idea that I should be watching LeBron's team struggle take on a team full of cast-offs with the 3rd cheapest payroll in the league and only thinking "Wow, isn't LeBron just the best?" is absurd to me.

I would be a bit more sympathetic about the player vs GM stuff if it weren't for the fact that much of what people would call "GM stuff" is simply based on how LeBron has chosen to play in Cleveland. LeBron the Player didn't like Blatt the coach. LeBron the Player was sick of playing a complex team-oriented scheme in Miami. LeBron the basketball mind doesn't understand the value in personally taking on less on the court to allow others get into a better groove. LeBron the team leader doesn't understand how his mentality has made his teammates feel like they are in a precarious position.

To me people are drawing boundaries between these things in ways that just don't make sense. LeBron is LeBron, and this is where Cleveland is now 4 years into becoming Team LeBron again because LeBron is LeBron. When you seek to divide LeBron into independent parts based on specific roles he plays as if he plays them in isolation, you lose the holistic truth of the matter.

[mischievous]

In the regular season, Durant only participated in 49 wins to Oladipo's 48. This despite the fact that Durant had the benefit of playing with Curry in a lot of those game, to say nothing of the rest of the cast.

To me it's really clear who accomplished more in the regular season between the two. Doesn't mean that I'd draft Oladipo ahead of Durant, and doesn't mean that Durant won't be higher on my POY list when all is said an done, but Durant really doesn't belong in Top 5 consideration based on the regular season alone in my opinion. That's just how it goes. When you're not forced to give 100% all regular season on, a lot of times you just don't add as much as those who do.

And this, combined with the focus placed on the playoffs, is the reason why having this POY award is so much better than focusing on the regular season MVP.

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

No i’m saying the supporting cast was the reason they weren’t all-time dominant like we’re used to seeing.

Also, I don’t believe Durant played half-assed. But if Durant’s half-assed is giving you 26/7/5 on 64ts% then i’ll still gladly have that over Oladipo.

[Doctor MJ]

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

aren't you using the same argument you ignored when I used it to claim LeBron has been more valuable than Harden? Harden had 9 more wins on a team that had a massive supporting case. If I recall, Paul was your #2 choice for MVP. You wouldn't even engage in the idea that not playing at all can't be more valuable than another guy having a few sub standard game.

And I see Harden is once again underperforming in the playoffs. WHo's not surprised by that?

What you call refusing to engage, I called not being willing to follow you into a new turn of the conversation because you hadn't shown any indication that you had sought to understand my already-made point. It's similar here.

You only wrote a few sentences here but couldn't resist getting a cheapshot in against the guy in comparison with LeBron despite the fact that you know your statement is out-of-bounds to regular season discussion and you know I've already said the playoffs can change everything.

You're a LeBron fanatic lj, and that's fine. Just understand I'm not athlete's or athletic team's fanatic. Just not how I enjoy the game. I'm not hear to bash LeBron, but I call it like I see it, and since that's not 100% positive, that's going to put is in debate.

But specifically about the parallel here, what you're talking about is the "do more with less" argument that can be argued with Oladipo > Durant and LeBron > Harden. However, that analogy clearly breaks down with regards to the points I've been making in both threads. There is a LeBron-shaped albatross hung around the Cavs neck that has shaped their growth in a way there just isn't with Oladipo. It's fine for you to come to your about it, but it shouldn't be hard to see the difference in the analogues.

[Doctor MJ]

But didn’t the Warriors as a whole kind of not give 100% effort? I don’t see anything different about Kd’s play pertaining to what his other prime seasons were like, maybe people were seeing something that i didn’t. Anyway yeah, even if you want to argue regular season, i’m seeing the 2 guys in their respective series and there’s no doubt Kd has played better in those small samples. Still a sample of high value games nonetheless.

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

No i’m saying the supporting cast was the reason they weren’t all-time dominant like we’re used to seeing.

Also, I don’t believe Durant played half-assed. But if Durant’s half-assed is giving you 26/7/5 on 64ts% then i’ll still gladly have that over Oladipo.

Do I really need to explain the issue with choosing to evaluate Durant in Golden State using only his individual box score numbers?

Golden State plays at their best when they don't play through Durant. How is this not something you see as a big deal when evaluating him as a Most Valuable Player?

If you want to acknowledge these things and still make the case Durant deserves to be higher based on specifics, that's cool. I'm not saying a good argument can't be made, but spare me the sports bar rhetoric.

[eminence]

KD has zero argument over Oladipo for this regular season imo.

[INKtastic]

Are you really suggesting that because the rest of the team played below their potential we should ignore Durant's half-assedness and pretend he tried as hard in the regular season as Oladipo?

aren't you using the same argument you ignored when I used it to claim LeBron has been more valuable than Harden? Harden had 9 more wins on a team that had a massive supporting case. If I recall, Paul was your #2 choice for MVP. You wouldn't even engage in the idea that not playing at all can't be more valuable than another guy having a few sub standard game.

And I see Harden is once again underperforming in the playoffs. WHo's not surprised by that?

What you call refusing to engage, I called not being willing to follow you into a new turn of the conversation because you hadn't shown any indication that you had sought to understand my already-made point. It's similar here.

You only wrote a few sentences here but couldn't resist getting a cheapshot in against the guy in comparison with LeBron despite the fact that you know your statement is out-of-bounds to regular season discussion and you know I've already said the playoffs can change everything.

You're a LeBron fanatic lj, and that's fine. Just understand I'm not athlete's or athletic team's fanatic. Just not how I enjoy the game. I'm not hear to bash LeBron, but I call it like I see it, and since that's not 100% positive, that's going to put is in debate.

But specifically about the parallel here, what you're talking about is the "do more with less" argument that can be argued with Oladipo > Durant and LeBron > Harden. However, that analogy clearly breaks down with regards to the points I've been making in both threads. There is a LeBron-shaped albatross hung around the Cavs neck that has shaped their growth in a way there just isn't with Oladipo. It's fine for you to come to your about it, but it shouldn't be hard to see the difference in the analogues.

LeBron didn't want to trade Kyrie, the cavs traded him anyway. Yet you want to blame LeBron for Kyrie getting traded.

LeBron didn't hurt IT's hip.

LeBron didn't break Love's hand

LeBron didn't tear Love's ligament

LeBron didn't elbow Hill in the back

LeBron didn't cause Nance to have hamstring issues most of the time he's been here

LeBron didn't hurt Korver's foot.

Yesterday's starting lineup was the 33rd different starting lineup the Cavs have had all season. The Cavs game 1 starting lineup played their first game together in game 1. Not just the first game they started together, the first game all 5 players were available the same game.

[ardee]

Toronto is going to become the 6th 1 seed to lose to an 8th seed.

I never took this team seriously and I think I'm going to be vindicated now. This was a team with maybe the worst top 2 of a team actually called a "contender" ever. Wall/Beal are definitely superior players to Lowry/DeRozan.

Toronto is a meme team, I don't know why anyone thought they'd be able to make noise.

[Doctor MJ]

aren't you using the same argument you ignored when I used it to claim LeBron has been more valuable than Harden? Harden had 9 more wins on a team that had a massive supporting case. If I recall, Paul was your #2 choice for MVP. You wouldn't even engage in the idea that not playing at all can't be more valuable than another guy having a few sub standard game.

And I see Harden is once again underperforming in the playoffs. WHo's not surprised by that?

What you call refusing to engage, I called not being willing to follow you into a new turn of the conversation because you hadn't shown any indication that you had sought to understand my already-made point. It's similar here.

You only wrote a few sentences here but couldn't resist getting a cheapshot in against the guy in comparison with LeBron despite the fact that you know your statement is out-of-bounds to regular season discussion and you know I've already said the playoffs can change everything.

You're a LeBron fanatic lj, and that's fine. Just understand I'm not athlete's or athletic team's fanatic. Just not how I enjoy the game. I'm not hear to bash LeBron, but I call it like I see it, and since that's not 100% positive, that's going to put is in debate.

But specifically about the parallel here, what you're talking about is the "do more with less" argument that can be argued with Oladipo > Durant and LeBron > Harden. However, that analogy clearly breaks down with regards to the points I've been making in both threads. There is a LeBron-shaped albatross hung around the Cavs neck that has shaped their growth in a way there just isn't with Oladipo. It's fine for you to come to your about it, but it shouldn't be hard to see the difference in the analogues.

LeBron didn't want to trade Kyrie, the cavs traded him anyway. Yet you want to blame LeBron for Kyrie getting traded.

LeBron didn't hurt IT's hip.

LeBron didn't break Love's hand

LeBron didn't tear Love's ligament

LeBron didn't elbow Hill in the back

LeBron didn't cause Nance to have hamstring issues most of the time he's been here

LeBron didn't hurt Korver's foot.

Yesterday's starting lineup was the 33rd different starting lineup the Cavs have had all season. The Cavs game 1 starting lineup played their first game together in game 1. Not just the first game they started together, the first game all 5 players were available the same game.

Kyrie asked to be traded dude. That is on LeBron because LeBron IS the context that Kyrie sought to leave. It is on LeBron that his best teammate chose to play with not-LeBron.

This is the fundamental problem here. You want to say that other guys are lucky that they have better teammates, but those guys chose to play together because in general guys like playing with other great players.

And the situation in LeBron-land instead is driving his #2 away, diminishing his #3, letting a locker room go toxic, all while the team pays tons of money to guys other than LeBron.

Am I saying only LeBron deserves blame? No. It’s just that he’s the one this discussion coalesced around because he’s the one worthy of discussion in a POY thread, and so as we analyze him, his role in these shenanigans simply has to be discussed if we are to understand the whole picture.

I’ve had a variety of LeBron discussions lately wherein people just refuse to acknowledge the reality of LeBron’s role in making a flawed team culture. We can disagree on how to weigh these things, but I find it exasperating instead try to score points as if in rebuttal to the existence of a glaringly true fact.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[INKtastic]

What you call refusing to engage, I called not being willing to follow you into a new turn of the conversation because you hadn't shown any indication that you had sought to understand my already-made point. It's similar here.

You only wrote a few sentences here but couldn't resist getting a cheapshot in against the guy in comparison with LeBron despite the fact that you know your statement is out-of-bounds to regular season discussion and you know I've already said the playoffs can change everything.

You're a LeBron fanatic lj, and that's fine. Just understand I'm not athlete's or athletic team's fanatic. Just not how I enjoy the game. I'm not hear to bash LeBron, but I call it like I see it, and since that's not 100% positive, that's going to put is in debate.

But specifically about the parallel here, what you're talking about is the "do more with less" argument that can be argued with Oladipo > Durant and LeBron > Harden. However, that analogy clearly breaks down with regards to the points I've been making in both threads. There is a LeBron-shaped albatross hung around the Cavs neck that has shaped their growth in a way there just isn't with Oladipo. It's fine for you to come to your about it, but it shouldn't be hard to see the difference in the analogues.

LeBron didn't want to trade Kyrie, the cavs traded him anyway. Yet you want to blame LeBron for Kyrie getting traded.

LeBron didn't hurt IT's hip.

LeBron didn't break Love's hand

LeBron didn't tear Love's ligament

LeBron didn't elbow Hill in the back

LeBron didn't cause Nance to have hamstring issues most of the time he's been here

LeBron didn't hurt Korver's foot.

Yesterday's starting lineup was the 33rd different starting lineup the Cavs have had all season. The Cavs game 1 starting lineup played their first game together in game 1. Not just the first game they started together, the first game all 5 players were available the same game.

Kyrie asked to be traded dude. That is on LeBron because LeBron IS the context that Kyrie sought to leave. It is on LeBron that his best teammate chose to play with not-LeBron.

This is the fundamental problem here. You want to say that other guys are lucky that they have better teammates, but those guys chose to play together because in general guys like playing with other great players.

And the situation in LeBron-land instead is driving his #2 away, diminishing his #3, letting a locker room go toxic, all while the team pays tons of money to guys other than LeBron.

Am I saying only LeBron deserves blame? No. It’s just that he’s the one this discussion coalesced around because he’s the one worthy of discussion in a POY thread, and so as we analyze him, his role in these shenanigans simply has to be discussed if we are to understand the whole picture.

I’ve had a variety of LeBron discussions lately wherein people just refuse to acknowledge the reality of LeBron’s role in making a flawed team culture. We can disagree on how to weigh these things, but I find it exasperating instead try to score points as if in rebuttal to the existence of a glaringly true fact.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Kyrie left because he wanted to be the main player, which clearly wasn't going to happen playing with the best player on the planet. CP3 went to Houston before Kyrie left. It's assuming a lot to conclude CP3 wouldn't rather play with LeBron over Harden if the Cavs didn't already have an all star PG at the time. Kyrie couldn't have picked a worst time to make his trade request, CP3, Butler and George were all traded before Kyrie requested a treade. I'm sure all 3 teams would have taken Kyrie in a trade.

And even after Kyrie requested the trade, LeBron wanted the team to keep him, but you claim LeBron is behind all of the Cavs moves. Clearly that's not the case.