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Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#661 » by Neddy » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:47 am

Quake Griffin wrote:
the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.

Wait.

We give up the 13 and Beverly.
Philly give us the 10 and the 26 and Bayless.

We srs? I'd do that in a heart beat. Call up Lawrence and let's get this done now.


really? Im totally in.
ehhhhh f it.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#662 » by the_process » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:26 am

Neddy wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:
the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.

Wait.

We give up the 13 and Beverly.
Philly give us the 10 and the 26 and Bayless.

We srs? I'd do that in a heart beat. Call up Lawrence and let's get this done now.


really? Im totally in.


So my understanding is because of the hard cap, you can’t take the difference in salaries until the new league year. So who do you want the rights to? Knox? Sexton? Miles Bridges? The list above are the guys who should be gone before 10.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#663 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:54 am

the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.


Interesting, and reasonable. Compliments du chef. :D But I think any deal would have to take place [or at least agreed upon] on draft night [June 21], not after.


To set the scene:


    ● FTR, the #11 pick is the Lakers' pick--unless it lands in the top 3, about a 2% chance. If #1 the Sixers will keep it, if #2-3 it conveys to the Celts.

    ● The Sixers have 6 picks in this draft and can't use 'em all--indeed they're over-Hinkied, just like last year, when they sold off two 2nd-rounders.

    ● Jarryd Bayless has negative trade value, an albatross--Jarryd Dudley. Bayless is signed for one more year @ $8M.

    ● If I'm the Sixers: I'm a contender now and can spend some chips for even slight upgrades: Bayless is garbage, and even if Pat Bev only makes the back of the rotation, I have a ton of picks I can't use.

    ●If I'm the Clippers: I seriously love me some Pat Bev and if I'm "re-tooling" the Clippers, Pat Bev's great D, boundless energy and, I expect, leadership will be a needed shot in the arm.

    But we have to be realistic about the value of a 30-yr-old, 10 ppg. 6'0" combo guard [not a true PG] who can walk after this season.



I'm not an NCAA fan and thus not much of a draftnik, but the mock drafts have Mikal and/or Miles Bridges going about #10, and godknowswhat afterwards. There could be a huge difference between #10 and #13.


So if I'm the Sixers, no, I don't offer the swap--at least until the clock is ticking on draft night. I don't risk devaluing my 1st-rounder. What I do offer is the #26 and the 2nd-rounders from the Knicks and Nets that I own. The Sixers have a ton of Euro-stashes already, and with 1st-rounders like Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot and Furkan Korkmaz warming my bench--not to mention Markelle Fultz--I'm ODing on The Process.

If I'm the Clippers, there's no way I can build around Pat Bev at his age, height, and limited skill set, and I may lose him as an UFA next summer regardless of how much love I show him. I gotta bite on the package of 3 longshot draft picks.


In case you were wondering, this Philly Boy is a fan of both teams, though the Clips are my #1.


[And a big pffffffffft to those who say I "devalue" the draft, LOL]
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#664 » by the_process » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:19 am

esqtvd wrote:Interesting, and reasonable. Compliments du chef. :D But I think any deal would have to take place [or at least agreed upon] on draft night [June 21], not after.


To set the scene:


    ● FTR, the #11 pick is the Lakers' pick--unless it lands in the top 3, about a 2% chance. If #1 the Sixers will keep it, if #2-3 it conveys to the Celts.

    ● The Sixers have 6 picks in this draft and can't use 'em all--indeed they're over-Hinkied, just like last year, when they sold off two 2nd-rounders.

    ● Jarryd Bayless has negative trade value, an albatross--Jarryd Dudley. Bayless is signed for one more year @ $8M.

    ● If I'm the Sixers: I'm a contender now and can spend some chips for even slight upgrades: Bayless is garbage, and even if Pat Bev only makes the back of the rotation, I have a ton of picks I can't use.

    ●If I'm the Clippers: I seriously love me some Pat Bev and if I'm "re-tooling" the Clippers, Pat Bev's great D, boundless energy and, I expect, leadership will be a needed shot in the arm.

    But we have to be realistic about the value of a 30-yr-old, 10 ppg. 6'0" combo guard [not a true PG] who can walk after this season.



I'm not an NCAA fan and thus not much of a draftnik, but the mock drafts have Mikal and/or Miles Bridges going about #10, and godknowswhat afterwards. There could be a huge difference between #10 and #13.


So if I'm the Sixers, no, I don't offer the swap--at least until the clock is ticking on draft night. I don't risk devaluing my 1st-rounder. What I do offer is the #26 and the 2nd-rounders from the Knicks and Nets that I own. The Sixers have a ton of Euro-stashes already, and with 1st-rounders like Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot and Furkan Korkmaz warming my bench--not to mention Markelle Fultz--I'm ODing on The Process.

If I'm the Clippers, there's no way I can build around Pat Bev at his age, height, and limited skill set, and I may lose him as an UFA next summer regardless of how much love I show him. I gotta bite on the package of 3 longshot draft picks.


In case you were wondering, this Philly Boy is a fan of both teams, though the Clips are my #1.


[And a big pffffffffft to those who say I "devalue" the draft, LOL]


Lakers pick is 10 this year pre-lottery. And yes, the trade would be agreed upon on draft night, but not executed until the new league year... July 1st.

The reason I’m wondering who the Clippers like is if Mikal Bridges goes early. If he falls the Sixers are keeping him. It would be in the case where Mikal is already gone at 10 where I could see them wanting out of the pick.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#665 » by esqtvd » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:26 am

the_process wrote:
esqtvd wrote:Interesting, and reasonable. Compliments du chef. :D But I think any deal would have to take place [or at least agreed upon] on draft night [June 21], not after.


To set the scene:


    ● FTR, the #11 pick is the Lakers' pick--unless it lands in the top 3, about a 2% chance. If #1 the Sixers will keep it, if #2-3 it conveys to the Celts.

    ● The Sixers have 6 picks in this draft and can't use 'em all--indeed they're over-Hinkied, just like last year, when they sold off two 2nd-rounders.

    ● Jarryd Bayless has negative trade value, an albatross--Jarryd Dudley. Bayless is signed for one more year @ $8M.

    ● If I'm the Sixers: I'm a contender now and can spend some chips for even slight upgrades: Bayless is garbage, and even if Pat Bev only makes the back of the rotation, I have a ton of picks I can't use.

    ●If I'm the Clippers: I seriously love me some Pat Bev and if I'm "re-tooling" the Clippers, Pat Bev's great D, boundless energy and, I expect, leadership will be a needed shot in the arm.

    But we have to be realistic about the value of a 30-yr-old, 10 ppg. 6'0" combo guard [not a true PG] who can walk after this season.



I'm not an NCAA fan and thus not much of a draftnik, but the mock drafts have Mikal and/or Miles Bridges going about #10, and godknowswhat afterwards. There could be a huge difference between #10 and #13.


So if I'm the Sixers, no, I don't offer the swap--at least until the clock is ticking on draft night. I don't risk devaluing my 1st-rounder. What I do offer is the #26 and the 2nd-rounders from the Knicks and Nets that I own. The Sixers have a ton of Euro-stashes already, and with 1st-rounders like Timothé Luwawu-Cabarrot and Furkan Korkmaz warming my bench--not to mention Markelle Fultz--I'm ODing on The Process.

If I'm the Clippers, there's no way I can build around Pat Bev at his age, height, and limited skill set, and I may lose him as an UFA next summer regardless of how much love I show him. I gotta bite on the package of 3 longshot draft picks.


In case you were wondering, this Philly Boy is a fan of both teams, though the Clips are my #1.


[And a big pffffffffft to those who say I "devalue" the draft, LOL]


Lakers pick is 10 this year pre-lottery. And yes, the trade would be agreed upon on draft night, but not executed until the new league year... July 1st.



Will you take Austin Rivers instead? :wink:

Come to think of it, we also might be able to gin up a sign-and-trade for Avery Bradley, where we take Bayless off your hands for some of the aforementioned picks.


__________________________
Oh, and sorry--you're right of course--I meant to correct my orig draft about #10
it was acknowledged infra and enforces my point

There could be a huge difference between #10 and #13
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Dissenting Opinion 

Post#666 » by Ranma » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:41 pm

the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.

Quake Griffin wrote:Wait.

We give up the 13 and Beverly.
Philly give us the 10 and the 26 and Bayless.

We srs? I'd do that in a heart beat. Call up Lawrence and let's get this done now.

Neddy wrote:really? Im totally in.


Wait. We give up Patrick Beverley and the 13th overall pick in the upcoming draft for the 10th and 26th overall picks along with Jerryd Bayless and you guys want to sign off on that even though Mikal Bridges is not available in his scenario? I'd struggle to accept that trade proposal even if Mikal Bridges were available.

While Beverley is not a true point guard, he's more so than Bayless and Beverley is clearly the superior defender. I've advocated trading for a point guard in the aftermath of losing Chris Paul, which is why I pushed for pursuing Ricky Rubio, who is now doing wonders for the Jazz.

Having 3 first-round picks in this draft would be great, but until we get a true PG, Beverley is worth more to the Clippers than moving up 3 slots in the draft, Jerry Bayless, and hypothetically Chandler Hutchison, in my opinion. Of course, I could be proven wrong especially with other options possibly available at the 26th overall selection slot, but as it stands right now, I don't see the appeal and this is coming from someone who considers himself a draftnik who values first-round picks.
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Re: Dissenting Opinion 

Post#667 » by the_process » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:45 pm

Ranma wrote:
the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.

Quake Griffin wrote:Wait.

We give up the 13 and Beverly.
Philly give us the 10 and the 26 and Bayless.

We srs? I'd do that in a heart beat. Call up Lawrence and let's get this done now.

Neddy wrote:really? Im totally in.


Wait. We give up Patrick Beverley and the 13th overall pick in the upcoming draft for the 10th and 26th overall picks along with Jerryd Bayless and you guys want to sign off on that even though Mikal Bridges is not available in his scenario? I'd struggle to accept that trade proposal even if Mikal Bridges were available.

While Beverley is not a true point guard, he's more so than Bayless and Beverley is clearly the superior defender. I've advocated trading for a point guard in the aftermath of losing Chris Paul, which is why I've advocated for pursuing Ricky Rubio, who is now doing wonders for the Jazz.

Having 3 first-round picks in this draft would be great, but until we get a true PG, Beverley is worth more to the Clippers than moving up 3 slots in the draft, Jerry Bayless, and hypothetically Chandler Hutchison, in my opinion. Of course, I could be proven wrong especially with other options possibly available at the 26th overall selection slot, but as it stands right now, I don't see the appeal and this is coming from someone who considers himself a draftnik who values first-round picks.


I was thinking the Sixers would be taking Sexton at 10 for you guys. That’s why I was asking.
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Explaining My Stance 

Post#668 » by Ranma » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:55 pm

the_process wrote:I was thinking the Sixers would be taking Sexton at 10 for you guys. That’s why I was asking.


The trade makes sense given the projected tiers of talent separation between the 10th and 13th picks, but I'm not sold on Sexton as a true PG. He's talented and athletic, but if he's going to be an undersized SG a la Monta Ellis, that's not how I want the team to be built. Granted I have to acknowledge that I haven't fully read up on Collin Sexton's draft profiles at this point, so if he's more Donovan Mitchell than Ellis, I might change my tune. For now, however, I don't see the appeal, especially if we miss out on the consensus board-favorite Mikal Bridges.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#669 » by nickhx2 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:54 pm

bev is not a true pg either. if we're going to reset into a youth core then we should make the trade because you net a draft pick while swapping a part that increases the ceiling of your team. but it all really depends on how hard FO is gonna go on rebuild vs playoffs next season.

and of course the answer changes if mikal bridges is still on board, because then it'd be automatic.
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Balance Between Rebuilding While Competing 

Post#670 » by Ranma » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:32 pm

nickhx2 wrote:bev is not a true pg either. if we're going to reset into a youth core then we should make the trade because you net a draft pick while swapping a part that increases the ceiling of your team. but it all really depends on how hard FO is gonna go on rebuild vs playoffs next season.

and of course the answer changes if mikal bridges is still on board, because then it'd be automatic.


Yes, I've acknowledged that Beverley is not a true PG but he does a decent job of facilitating while providing excellent defense, which is more than either Sexton or Bayless would give us in that regard. I'm under no illusion that he's the long-term answer at the position but we're not just trying to build long-term as the Clippers are also trying to compete while attracting free agents to accelerate our progress towards contention. Beverley serves as a good stopgap at the moment assuming his health doesn't continue to be a problem.

Even with Mikal Bridges, we'd be left with Austin Rivers, Lou Williams, Jawun Evans, and maybe Avery Bradley as our primary playmaker for the foreseeable future, which is not something I'd be looking forward to at all. Even if he is not a true PG, Beverly is the best solution that we have right now.

Plus, like I mentioned, having Beverley on the team does more to help attract free agents who would love to play with him as pairing him with either LeBron or Kawhi would really solidify our defense without sacrificing too much in terms of solid albeit unspectacular playmaking.

In any case, it looks like I'm the lone voice of minority on this.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#671 » by Neddy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:08 am

^Im thinking at least with one of the two picks we have, we are drafting a PG regardless.

we don't really know how well Beverly can play coming back from micro fracture surgery, but he does come cheap. in fantasy world ( mine, of course) we would have 100% healthy Beverly and Bradley to go along with Milos and Rookie PG + Sindarius rounding up our guards, assuming if Doc is gone, Austin would leave as well. if Doc stays, I would also assume that Austin will be the starting 2 guard.

but just the thought of (healthy) trio of Beverly-Bradley-Milos-high draft pick rook PG( that lives up to the billing of course) would be a fearsome foursome guard rotation.

again, not a deep evaluation of any kind, my personal basketball fantasy is all.
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BPA Over Filling Positional Need 

Post#672 » by Ranma » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:34 am

Neddy wrote:^Im thinking at least with one of the two picks we have, we are drafting a PG regardless.


I would love to draft a good PG prospect, but I'm not really sold on anybody in this class to be the answer, so rather than reaching to fill a need, I'd rather go with the best player available and there seems to be a decent amount of quality wing prospects for us to choose from.

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander seems to be the popular pick for us at 13th overall, but I'm not convinced that he'll be the playmaker we need him to be. He presents good length and apparently possesses encouraging defensive acumen, but I doubt he'll ever be as good as Shaun Livingston is right now as a PG. I also have to include the caveat that I have not fully read up on him either nor watched any tape of him, but looking over the thumbnail assessments of his draft profile doesn't inspire much enthusiasm from me.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#673 » by TrueLAfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:23 pm

Count me in on Gilgeous-Alexander. I’ve read a couple of commentaries that ask whether he’s a “true” PG. Maybe it’s because of his size. This is a guy who averaged over 5 assists a game as a freshman with an A/TO ratio of close to 2:1. The final point for me is how he improved over the course of the season, and what it meant for the team. People forget that, in February. Kentucky lost four in a row and was far from being considered a lock to even make the tournament. Gilgeous-Alexander played well in the losses—14.5 ppg, 5.7 apg—but he ramped it up to get the team into the tournament and in the tournament itself. In the last 11 games of the season, against high quality opposition, he put up 17.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, and 6.5 apg, on 49/48/84. Ran the offense, led the team--as an 18 year old that doesn't turn 19 until late July.

The thing is, we’ve got this glut at the G position where we’ve got lots of players, but none of them is a great or even very good player—which Gilgeous-Alexander really could end up being. Now, we have a case where having so many players is really bad. Consider what we’ve got—

Lou—Bench player, one dimensional—but very good at what he does. Good contract.
Bradley—Good player coming off a bad year. FA. Like almost all of our guards, small. Combo guard, questionable decision making at times. Good defender. Could get good contract for trade.
Milos—Useful when he plays; a true point. Older, injured a lot. We only got 1150 minutes out of him last year. Not what you would call a building block.
Beverly—Looked good before his injury; seems like he wants to stay and be a leader. Great contract. Small, pesky, good defender and rebounder.
Austin—He is what he is. Would be useful on a team as a 3rd or 4th guard. Can play either guard slot, has some skills without being particularly skilled. Polarizing. Overpaid.
Evans—Has upside. Needs work in a lot of areas.
Thornwell—Has upside; already gets minutes as a 3 and D guy. Lacks offensive game. Upside?
Williams—See Thornwell.

That’s eight players, which is—really—three or four too many for players of the caliber. And, like I said, the bigger issue is that none of those player is a star. You can get away with starting a mediocre or one dimensional guy if your other guard is someone like Ben Simmons. We don’t have that. We have a glut of mediocrity and players whose skills aren’t really complimentary.

Several of our players have trade value, particularly Lou, Beverly, and a resigned Bradley. I’d like to keep the first two and go for Gilgeous-Alexander. I‘m not as big on Milos as some others here…I just can’t see a 31 year old European player with an injury history being a cornerstone. Thing is, if we packaged a couple/few of our guards with good contracts for a $15-25 million player, we could get someone useful—and we could go after someone who would help us more.
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Re: Dissenting Opinion 

Post#674 » by TucsonClip » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:35 pm

Ranma wrote:
the_process wrote:Would you guys do rights to 10, rights to 26, and Bayless for rights to 13 and Beverley on July 1st?

And who would you want at 10? Assume that Ayton, Doncic, Jackson, Bamba, Young, Porter, Mikal B, Bagley, and Carter are all gone.

Quake Griffin wrote:Wait.

We give up the 13 and Beverly.
Philly give us the 10 and the 26 and Bayless.

We srs? I'd do that in a heart beat. Call up Lawrence and let's get this done now.

Neddy wrote:really? Im totally in.


Wait. We give up Patrick Beverley and the 13th overall pick in the upcoming draft for the 10th and 26th overall picks along with Jerryd Bayless and you guys want to sign off on that even though Mikal Bridges is not available in his scenario? I'd struggle to accept that trade proposal even if Mikal Bridges were available.

While Beverley is not a true point guard, he's more so than Bayless and Beverley is clearly the superior defender. I've advocated trading for a point guard in the aftermath of losing Chris Paul, which is why I pushed for pursuing Ricky Rubio, who is now doing wonders for the Jazz.

Having 3 first-round picks in this draft would be great, but until we get a true PG, Beverley is worth more to the Clippers than moving up 3 slots in the draft, Jerry Bayless, and hypothetically Chandler Hutchison, in my opinion. Of course, I could be proven wrong especially with other options possibly available at the 26th overall selection slot, but as it stands right now, I don't see the appeal and this is coming from someone who considers himself a draftnik who values first-round picks.


Just saw this, and I agree 100%.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

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Re: Balance Between Rebuilding While Competing 

Post#675 » by TucsonClip » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:41 pm

Ranma wrote:Even with Mikal Bridges, we'd be left with Austin Rivers, Lou Williams, Jawun Evans, and maybe Avery Bradley as our primary playmaker for the foreseeable future, which is not something I'd be looking forward to at all. Even if he is not a true PG, Beverly is the best solution that we have right now.

Plus, like I mentioned, having Beverley on the team does more to help attract free agents who would love to play with him as pairing him with either LeBron or Kawhi would really solidify our defense without sacrificing too much in terms of solid albeit spectacular playmaking.

In any case, it looks like I'm the lone voice of minority on this.[/color]


Beverley is also our culture leader. Thinking we can just remove him from the roster and actually be in a better position is a mistake, IMO.

I do like Sexton, but if we want to move up, I would rather package both lottery picks to do so.
Plus, why would I want to go to the NBA? Duke players suck in the pros.

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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#676 » by ejftw » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:32 pm

I wouldn't give up Bev to move up from 13 to 10 and get 26.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#677 » by Quake Griffin » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:47 pm

Didn't Beverley just have microfracture surgery?

We're 100% sure he's gonna be the same when he gets back?
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#678 » by MartinToVaught » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:27 pm

I'd like to at least see Beverley play for real before giving up on him.
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Re: Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas) 

Post#679 » by QRich3 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:53 am

I'm not much into spending assets to move up unless we find an unexpectedly great deal, which I doubt we will. If we're not gonna get high enough to get one of the game changers, I'd rather have the extra asset to use in another deal, keep both picks and take two stabs at finding a player, which we should be better at than a lot of teams in our range with West and them.
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Medical Charts and Charted Course 

Post#680 » by Ranma » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:59 am

Beverley's microfracture surgery is definitely a concern given the low success rate in recovery over the years, but players like Amar'e Stoudemire and John Stockton have fully recovered from such procedures to perform to their respective previous forms. Also, some of the notable post-surgery failures can be attributed to players trying to return too early, which should hopefully be eliminated now given the amount of information collected on the procedure nowadays. Both Doug Christie and Spencer Hawes are listed to have had the procedures before beginning their respective NBA careers.

Playing below the rim might benefit Beverley with regards to recovering from microfracture surgery but it remains to be seen how it will affect his lateral quickness. However, given the Clippers' dubious reputation with regard to their medical and training methodologies and staff, we can't take any player injury for granted.

That said, Beverley is an important figure for the team's culture as TucsonClip pointed out in addition to maintaining the PG situation I've expressed concern about given the charted course the brain trust chose to take the team in. Had the team gone with the full rebuild like I and notably others advocated for prior to this past season, it would have made more sense to trade him in order to maximize assets with the focus solely on the long term. A full rebuild would also have improved our draft position in the lottery. However, since the Clippers are trying to compete in the now while also having an eye towards building for the future, it makes less sense to get rid of him right now unless a sweetheart offer is on the table.

At this point, it makes more sense to see what Beverley can give us post-surgery even at the risk of lowering his trade value, but an argument can be made that his value needs to be rebuilt, anyway.
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