ECSF: P1 | (2) Boston Celtics vs Philadelphia 76ers (3) | BOS 1-0

[Sixerscan]

Quick question Philly fans: has Kevin Hart always been sitting at the court side during those tanking years?

He was there a few times last year when he was filming a movie.

I don't begrudge anyone that didn't show up for the tanking years personally. It's one thing to generally support what the team is doing but there are better things to do with your time than watch a team get beat down most nights lol.

M Night has had season tickets for a few years now though.

[ITYSL]

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

Covington has never been anything more than catch and shoot for us. Dario was always the higher usage option dating back to last year. Maybe you are confusing things because Saric was coming off the bench in the beginning of the season and took more time to find his niche in our new system.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead at this point; we will just have to agree to disagree.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead because when someone points out facts showing why there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season, you no longer have any legit responses. All-Star / lead dog / WC playoff series winner vs. 4th option on the Sixers. If you want to agree to disagree following that exchange, that's fine with me.

I'm not confused re: Saric and Covington. If the Celtics and Sixers weren't playing at the same time this season, I would tune into the Sixers because they're an exciting team that's fun to watch. Covington was more of a go-to player than Saric earlier in the season. Here are some facts to back up my claim:

October USG%: Embiid 35, Simmons 24.5, Redick 17.9, Covington 17.9, Saric 17.8 (source: https://on.nba.com/2HCBShL)
November USG%: Embiid 33.7, Simmons 25, Redick 19.3, Covington 18.7, Saric 18.3 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vU3fCo)

October FGA/G: Embiid 15, Simmons 14.1, Redick 11.8, Covington 10.7, Saric 8.4 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November FGA/G: Embiid 17.5, Simmons 15.6, Redick 13.5, Covington 11.6, Saric 11 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)

October PTS/G: Embiid 20.8, Simmons 18.4, Redick 13.2, Covington 13.6, Saric 7.7 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November PTS/G: Embiid 24, Simmons 18.6, Redick 16.2, Covington 15.3, Saric 12.9 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)
--
Thus, your statement that "Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season" was incorrect. In October and November, Covington was a higher usage option and had more production.

[ken6199]

Quick question Philly fans: has Kevin Hart always been sitting at the court side during those tanking years?

He was there a few times last year when he was filming a movie.

I don't begrudge anyone that didn't show up for the tanking years personally. It's one thing to generally support what the team is doing but there are better things to do with your time than watch a team get beat down most nights lol.

Obviously celebrities are also people, they have their own priorities. You have Jack Nicoleson, Lee, Drake, Hart... all attending on different levels. Heck, we have Justin Verlander showing up to Rockets game with Kate Upton putting up some courtside fashion show just for the exposure.

My question didn't mean it in a snarky way, just curious.

[ITYSL]

Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season.

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

They averaged identical fgas per 36 through 12/1. Wouldn't say one was ahead of the other. Dario had the more clearly larger role over the last 61 games though. Weird thing to split hairs about.

I agree that it's splitting hairs, though it was SuperDario doing the splitting. I said that Saric was the 4th option this season, and sometimes 5th. SuperDario split hairs over that minor detail in a debate about the gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season. And so I entertained that tangent.

[Sixerscan]

Quick question Philly fans: has Kevin Hart always been sitting at the court side during those tanking years?

He was there a few times last year when he was filming a movie.

I don't begrudge anyone that didn't show up for the tanking years personally. It's one thing to generally support what the team is doing but there are better things to do with your time than watch a team get beat down most nights lol.

Obviously celebrities are also people, they have their own priorities. You have Jack Nicolson, Drake, Hart... all attending on different levels. Heck, we have Justin Verlander showing up to Rockets game with Kate Upton putting up some courtside fashion show just for the exposure.

My question didn't mean it in a snarky way, just curious.

Yep. Though it's worth noting that Nicholas (and Verlander I guess) already lives in town so it's a lot easier to go to a random basketball game. Drake is clearly a real fan but also has a nebulous business relationship with the team ect.

[cl2117]

Problem is we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew. Kyrie can still be an impact player for sure...but as a guy who can play 70+ regular season games and another 20 in the playoffs at an Uncle Drew level? We will have to see about that.

I think you need to check into his injury. Not saying this isn't signs of an issue that will continue, but to say something like "we may have seen the last of Uncle Drew" doesn't mesh with the actual facts. His knee is structurally sound, this surgery changes nothing about that.

Totally fair to suggest that he might struggle to play at least 70 games a season, but in those games he does play he'll be the same old Uncle Drew (at least that's what the doctors are saying).

That's not what Danny Ainge is saying.

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2018/03/08/danny-ainge-kyrie-irving-will-have-to-manage-knee-soreness-his-whole-career/

There is a difference between being an All-Star and being Uncle Drew. Right?

This is one of the key issues. If Irving's career is impacted - even a little - by having to manage a balky knee for the rest of his career, then Ainge has basically hitched his wagon, in essence, to two max contracts for Top 20-to-25-level players. If Kyrie is not the same player that he was 2-3 years ago, IT MATTERS.

We will have a MUCH better sense of the 3-to-5-year outlook for the Celtics next March - 65 to 70 games into the season. If both Irving and Hayward are back playing at the top of their respective games, then the Celtics are in good shape. Given that both are home right now on their respective couches eating cheese puffs, I do not think it is unreasonable to wait and see where these guys are next spring before declaring that all is well.

I think that's exactly what Ainge is saying. He's saying he doesn't mind if Kyrie misses games as long as he's the same level of player:

“I think that it’s something that he’ll have to manage the rest of his career,” Ainge said Thursday morning. “I don’t think it’s anything serious, but we want Kyrie healthy and fresh. He carries a heavy burden [with] the offensive load that he carries. So we’re okay with him missing some games.”

I don't see where you're getting the idea that he'll be a lesser player. Maybe I'm missing something. Where are you getting that he won't be the same player? Again I get that he won't be able to play the full slate and it'll have to be managed, but everything I've read says that it won't affect his on court production, just the frequency with which he might miss games to manage the soreness.

[maRioGrande]

Seems to me Boston fans are bit nervous, can't wait to see meltdown when sixers destroy celtics. Hope they win g7 vs bucks

[cl2117]

"Celtics fans are acting like" ≠ "Celtics fans said." A definitive claim versus a speculative claim; that's where you're wrong. At worst the transcendent talent remark was hyperbole (even that I'm not convinced of) but seeing as it was never my argument it most certainly isn't a straw man argument.

I'm sorry if you guys don't understand what a straw man argument is.

DIG THAT HOLE! DIG THAT HOLE! Shall we put up a plaque that says "Here lies SuperDario, he chose to die on this hill despite being clearly wrong for unknown stupid reasons"? Maybe put a definition of "strawman argument" there so others can learn from your mistakes?

You didn't say "Celtics fans are acting like", you said:

Funny how a 1 time All-Star in the heart of his prime is suddenly regarded as a transcendent talent.

Show me where a Celtics fan acted like or said Hayward was a transcendent talent? I'll wait.

DIG THAT HOLE! I believe in you SuperDario!

I feel like I'm talking to toddlers.

The post that began this entire discussion:
"Hayward being a little better than Dario Saric? Lmaoooo "

If Hayward being a little better than Dario is laughable, and the claim is followed up with rankings that place him above Lillard, Jokic, Kyrie, etc then yes it would follow that he is a transcendent talent. You may disagree based on player valuations but you are so hilariously wrong to call it a straw man argument It's even more hilarious when surrounded by pro-Celtic straw man arguments like "Dario is not better than Hayward" or "Sixers fans think Simmons/Embiid are Magic/Kareem."

If SuperDario keeps digging how many posts does he have to make until he breaks through and reaches China on the other side? YOU CAN DO IT MAN! KEEP GOING!

At this rate you might be a transcendent hole digger.

[cl2117]

Seems to me Boston fans are bit nervous, can't wait to see meltdown when sixers destroy celtics. Hope they win g7 vs bucks

Nervous about what? I'm pretty sure to a man, that everyone has picked Philly in that potential matchup (including all Celtics fans).

If anything it's a classic no-win situation for Philly. You're expected to win and if you do then there you'll just hear excuses from the other side and if you don't you'll just get abuse from the other side.

I don't think that's fair anyway though. C's have their own problems, but it'll be an impressive feat regardless of the competition for a team lead by such young talents making it to eh ECF (especially since they won't just be fodder for a Cavs/Raptors team and will have a legit shot at advancing to the finals). That's a huge step for such a young team and I doubt they'll get the credit they're due.

[GeorgeMarcus]

First two months of the season? Yeah he was. Still doesn't change my point that there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season.

Covington has never been anything more than catch and shoot for us. Dario was always the higher usage option dating back to last year. Maybe you are confusing things because Saric was coming off the bench in the beginning of the season and took more time to find his niche in our new system.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead at this point; we will just have to agree to disagree.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead because when someone points out facts showing why there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season, you no longer have any legit responses. All-Star / lead dog / WC playoff series winner vs. 4th option on the Sixers. If you want to agree to disagree following that exchange, that's fine with me.

I'm not confused re: Saric and Covington. If the Celtics and Sixers weren't playing at the same time this season, I would tune into the Sixers because they're an exciting team that's fun to watch. Covington was more of a go-to player than Saric earlier in the season. Here are some facts to back up my claim:

October USG%: Embiid 35, Simmons 24.5, Redick 17.9, Covington 17.9, Saric 17.8 (source: https://on.nba.com/2HCBShL)
November USG%: Embiid 33.7, Simmons 25, Redick 19.3, Covington 18.7, Saric 18.3 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vU3fCo)

October FGA/G: Embiid 15, Simmons 14.1, Redick 11.8, Covington 10.7, Saric 8.4 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November FGA/G: Embiid 17.5, Simmons 15.6, Redick 13.5, Covington 11.6, Saric 11 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)

October PTS/G: Embiid 20.8, Simmons 18.4, Redick 13.2, Covington 13.6, Saric 7.7 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November PTS/G: Embiid 24, Simmons 18.6, Redick 16.2, Covington 15.3, Saric 12.9 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)
--
Thus, your statement that "Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season" was incorrect. In October and November, Covington was a higher usage option and had more production.

Klay Thompson shot more FGA's than KD last season. Does that mean KD was a 3rd option for the Warriors? No. Saric/Covington's usage percentage were nearly identical for the 2 months BB was deciding how to integrate Dario's skill set but that doesn't change the fact that Covington is a catch and shoot guy while Dario is/has always been the more diverse/dependable scorer that can create for himself. Dario is a much better player than Reddick as well, regardless of how you view what # option they are on offense.

Regarding the Hayward/Saric debate I presented counter arguments for all of your "facts." Is Donovan Mitchell the best player on the Jazz right now? Not even close. They were well below .500 until Gobert returned from injury and that's when they turned their season around. Hayward being the leading scorer on a team with nobody else to score just isn't that impressive. Dario would put up ~20ppg on that team.

[har13]

I'd take the Simmons of the last 3-4 months or so over Kyrie. Kyrie's a fantastic player but Simmons is just otherworldly right now, on both ends.

Well Its not exactly like that, i mean if you are the Bucks and you must add one of them next year then you go a 100% with Kyrie, we don't have the shooters to help Simmons play his game and we add a great one with Kyrie on the other hand.

[cl2117]

It seems you're just arguing to argue.

Not arguing. Trying to actually stop needless arguing. People are debating over a list that was thrown down by 1 random poster (who Philly fans say is biased against Saric/Fultz) and with absolutely zero context. It could be a list of the best players now or best going forward. It could be that guys guess as to who has the biggest dick. That's my point. You need the context of the list before we can argue over it. Didn't mean to come off as argumentative, just trying to reiterate that people are all talking about different things in context to that list making the discussion fairly pointless (at least until the context is clarified).

[theFireBlanket]

Who’s guarding Ginnais ? Thon is good defender against Joel.

If Whiteside was not able to guard Joel, what makes you think Thon has a chance?

Embiid turns the ball over as does Simmons, the Bucks will pick each of their respective pockets. Thon gets steals & blocks. He can avoid being bodied up as much as possible, brings way more effort than Hassan, & just play for the ball.

Otherwise, Giannis, Khris, Bledsoe, Jabari, Snell & Delly can all play for steals from Ben.

[GeorgeMarcus]

DIG THAT HOLE! DIG THAT HOLE! Shall we put up a plaque that says "Here lies SuperDario, he chose to die on this hill despite being clearly wrong for unknown stupid reasons"? Maybe put a definition of "strawman argument" there so others can learn from your mistakes?

You didn't say "Celtics fans are acting like", you said:



Show me where a Celtics fan acted like or said Hayward was a transcendent talent? I'll wait.

DIG THAT HOLE! I believe in you SuperDario!

I feel like I'm talking to toddlers.

The post that began this entire discussion:
"Hayward being a little better than Dario Saric? Lmaoooo "

If Hayward being a little better than Dario is laughable, and the claim is followed up with rankings that place him above Lillard, Jokic, Kyrie, etc then yes it would follow that he is a transcendent talent. You may disagree based on player valuations but you are so hilariously wrong to call it a straw man argument It's even more hilarious when surrounded by pro-Celtic straw man arguments like "Dario is not better than Hayward" or "Sixers fans think Simmons/Embiid are Magic/Kareem."

If SuperDario keeps digging how many posts does he have to make until he breaks through and reaches China on the other side? YOU CAN DO IT MAN! KEEP GOING!

At this rate you might be a transcendent hole digger.

Deflecting and deflecting and... more deflecting This is what happens when people don't want to refute the points being made. Logic is not your strong suit.

[cl2117]

I feel like I'm talking to toddlers.

The post that began this entire discussion:
"Hayward being a little better than Dario Saric? Lmaoooo "

If Hayward being a little better than Dario is laughable, and the claim is followed up with rankings that place him above Lillard, Jokic, Kyrie, etc then yes it would follow that he is a transcendent talent. You may disagree based on player valuations but you are so hilariously wrong to call it a straw man argument It's even more hilarious when surrounded by pro-Celtic straw man arguments like "Dario is not better than Hayward" or "Sixers fans think Simmons/Embiid are Magic/Kareem."

If SuperDario keeps digging how many posts does he have to make until he breaks through and reaches China on the other side? YOU CAN DO IT MAN! KEEP GOING!

At this rate you might be a transcendent hole digger.

Deflecting and deflecting and... more deflecting This is what happens when people don't want to refute the points being made. Logic is not your strong suit.

YES HE CAN!!!

You've been proven wrong time and again. You made a claim that Hayward was suddenly regarded as a transcendent talent. Something that literally no one claimed. That's a strawman by definition. Keep digging though baby.

[commentatorer]

Who’s guarding Ginnais ? Thon is good defender against Joel.

If Whiteside was not able to guard Joel, what makes you think Thon has a chance?

Embiid turns the ball over as does Simmons, the Bucks will pick each of their respective pockets. Thon gets steals & blocks. He can avoid being bodied up as much as possible, brings way more effort than Hassan, & just play for the ball.

Otherwise, Giannis, Khris, Bledsoe, Jabari, Snell & Delly can all play for steals from Ben.

Simmons leads the NBA in possessions, so 3.4 turnovers per game is nothing.
Nash averaged 3.5 turnovers per game when he won MVP.

[ITYSL]

Covington has never been anything more than catch and shoot for us. Dario was always the higher usage option dating back to last year. Maybe you are confusing things because Saric was coming off the bench in the beginning of the season and took more time to find his niche in our new system.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead at this point; we will just have to agree to disagree.

The Hayward/Saric debate is dead because when someone points out facts showing why there's a sizable gap between Hayward last season and Saric this season, you no longer have any legit responses. All-Star / lead dog / WC playoff series winner vs. 4th option on the Sixers. If you want to agree to disagree following that exchange, that's fine with me.

I'm not confused re: Saric and Covington. If the Celtics and Sixers weren't playing at the same time this season, I would tune into the Sixers because they're an exciting team that's fun to watch. Covington was more of a go-to player than Saric earlier in the season. Here are some facts to back up my claim:

October USG%: Embiid 35, Simmons 24.5, Redick 17.9, Covington 17.9, Saric 17.8 (source: https://on.nba.com/2HCBShL)
November USG%: Embiid 33.7, Simmons 25, Redick 19.3, Covington 18.7, Saric 18.3 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vU3fCo)

October FGA/G: Embiid 15, Simmons 14.1, Redick 11.8, Covington 10.7, Saric 8.4 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November FGA/G: Embiid 17.5, Simmons 15.6, Redick 13.5, Covington 11.6, Saric 11 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)

October PTS/G: Embiid 20.8, Simmons 18.4, Redick 13.2, Covington 13.6, Saric 7.7 (source: https://on.nba.com/2vQZ8Hg)
November PTS/G: Embiid 24, Simmons 18.6, Redick 16.2, Covington 15.3, Saric 12.9 (source: https://on.nba.com/2Hzgbil)
--
Thus, your statement that "Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season" was incorrect. In October and November, Covington was a higher usage option and had more production.

Klay Thompson shot more FGA's than KD last season. Does that mean KD was a 3rd option for the Warriors? No. Saric/Covington's usage percentage were nearly identical for the 2 months BB was deciding how to integrate Dario's skill set but that doesn't change the fact that Covington is a catch and shoot guy while Dario is/has always been the more diverse/dependable scorer that can create for himself. Dario is a much better player than Reddick as well, regardless of how you view what # option they are on offense.

Regarding the Hayward/Saric debate I presented counter arguments for all of your "facts." Is Donovan Mitchell the best player on the Jazz right now? Not even close. They were well below .500 until Gobert returned from injury and that's when they turned their season around. Hayward being the leading scorer on a team with nobody else to score just isn't that impressive. Dario would put up ~20ppg on that team.

LOL! Random irrelevant analogy for $2000, Alex. KD was injured for almost 20 games last season. Not even remotely comparable to look at their respective total FGAs as an analogy to this. You're just embarrassing yourself with that nonsense.

I showed facts. Covington's USG% and production was higher for the first two months. Whatever that reason might have been - Brown figuring out lineups, Saric coming off the bench - your statement that "Saric was never the 5th option behind Covington at any point in the season" and your subsequent statement that "Dario was always the higher usage option dating back to last year" were incorrect. Keep digging...

[hookshot199]

I'd take the Simmons of the last 3-4 months or so over Kyrie. Kyrie's a fantastic player but Simmons is just otherworldly right now, on both ends.

Well Its not exactly like that, i mean if you are the Bucks and you must add one of them next year then you go a 100% with Kyrie, we don't have the shooters to help Simmons play his game and we add a great one with Kyrie on the other hand.

But does a ball-dominant point guard really help your shooters? It was painful last night to watch how you almost gave away the game. The Celtics force teams into turnovers. But last night seemed to be as much unforced errors as Celtics defense.

[mithrandir17]

Who’s guarding Ginnais ? Thon is good defender against Joel.

If Whiteside was not able to guard Joel, what makes you think Thon has a chance?

Embiid turns the ball over as does Simmons, the Bucks will pick each of their respective pockets. Thon gets steals & blocks. He can avoid being bodied up as much as possible, brings way more effort than Hassan, & just play for the ball.

Otherwise, Giannis, Khris, Bledsoe, Jabari, Snell & Delly can all play for steals from Ben.

Miami had 18 steals on the sixers 26 turnovers in Game 4. How did that turn out for the heat? Again, the defensive side of the ball is more than steals and blocks. Let say you replicate what the Heat have done by getting 18 steals. That's only like 20% of the total possessions. What will you do on the remaining 80% of the possessions? If you can't keep Joel out of the post and keep him from getting the offensive rebounds, that is not a sign of a good defense. Plus with all of the gambling on steals, you will just be beating yourselves against the shooters that the sixers have.

[GeorgeMarcus]

If SuperDario keeps digging how many posts does he have to make until he breaks through and reaches China on the other side? YOU CAN DO IT MAN! KEEP GOING!

At this rate you might be a transcendent hole digger.

Deflecting and deflecting and... more deflecting This is what happens when people don't want to refute the points being made. Logic is not your strong suit.

YES HE CAN!!!

You've been proven wrong time and again. You made a claim that Hayward was suddenly regarded as a transcendent talent. Something that literally no one claimed. That's a strawman by definition. Keep digging though baby.

Yes, I made that claim and gave specific examples about why I made it. Yet nobody responded to argue why Hayward is greater than Jokic or Lillard because... wait for it... he isn't! Not even close. If he was then he would be a transcendent talent, and yet that was the point made by a Celtics fan in this thread. NOW do you understand or you gonna deflect some more?