'17-'18 POY discussion

[Doctor MJ]

Toronto - It's going to take something crazy for me to see any Raptor as a serious Top 5 candidate.
Boston - Ditto for the Celtics.

If either the Raptors or Celtics made the finals—which is certainly conceivable since they are the top two seeds in the East—how could neither team have a candidate?

Saying they play team ball would underestimate the ability to affect or maximize teammates and puts hero ball on a pedestal.

I mean, they have to convince me they were a Top 5 player this season. That's a high bar.

[eminence]

Westbrook has a similar candidacy to Giannis in my mind and Jokic feels deserving of a mention, but a great summary.

Thanks for the kind words.

I don't see Westbrook as having Giannis' argument. Giannis argument is basically Westbrook's from LAST year: Imagine if he had more help. With Westbrook we no long have to imagine what he'd do with more help.

Fair enough. Personally I feel that down Roberson OKC was a pretty similar quality team to last year, and they achieved about what I thought they 'should'.

[Doctor MJ]

Current Top 5:
1. Harden
2. Davis
3. Paul
4. LeBron
5. Durant

Could you expand a bit on why CP is this high? Or maybe point to where you've talked about it in the past?

Hard for me to understand why the #2 guy on a team, who missed a third of the season, would be above guys like Giannis or Oladipo let alone LeBron and Durant. Also Curry - I could understand him outside the top 5 based on games missed, but then CP3 has missed almost as many.

Just curious to know your thought process.

As I say, Paul is hard to place. I get why other players would be ranked ahead of him on others' lists, but to me he's basically handled his induction on to the Rockets perfectly and this has been essential to making them a championship-level team rather than be hampered by redundancy as some superteams have been.

As things stand, the whole of his achievement for the year seems greater than LeBron's to me, for reasons that drive people nuts, but sufficed to say I'm pretty critical of LeBron for what the Cavs were during the regular season, and so his candidacy will be tied to what he can make his team do in the playoffs.

Re: games missed. A bit of missed time early in the year doesn't bother me. Curry's missed more time and at a more important time in the season.

[Doctor MJ]

Current Top 5:
1. Harden
2. Davis
3. Paul
4. LeBron
5. Durant

Could you expand a bit on why CP is this high? Or maybe point to where you've talked about it in the past?

Hard for me to understand why the #2 guy on a team, who missed a third of the season, would be above guys like Giannis or Oladipo let alone LeBron and Durant. Also Curry - I could understand him outside the top 5 based on games missed, but then CP3 has missed almost as many.

Just curious to know your thought process.

Apparently, the team winning without Harden boosts hardens value while the same team losing without Paul boosts Paul's value. Meanwhile LeBron gets downgraded for playing every game and carrying his team. Because, hey, LeBron should somehow be penalized for his teammates being injured and inconsistent. Never-mind that he's clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty much consensus MVP is Harden/LeBron as 1/2. And LeBron is hands down best player in the playoffs. So put him down at #4.

For some reason it feels like Doctor MJ, who I really respect as a poster, has developed an anti-lebron bias over the years. This wasn't always the case.

Still isn't, and if I did my friend, you wouldn't be the one who could objectively call me out on it, because you are not remotely unbiased here. And c'mon, you know this. LeBron is your boy. It's cool, as long as you recognize that you are not objective about him, and don't allege bias against him to those who somehow aren't as positive about LJ for POY as lj4mvp.

[Jaivl]

Mitchell and Simmons are leading contenders past the first round of the playoffs. This is not something that would have been said about those other two pairs.

Neither of them is the best player in their team. That's not something you could say about Jordan or Hakeem.

[INKtastic]

Could you expand a bit on why CP is this high? Or maybe point to where you've talked about it in the past?

Hard for me to understand why the #2 guy on a team, who missed a third of the season, would be above guys like Giannis or Oladipo let alone LeBron and Durant. Also Curry - I could understand him outside the top 5 based on games missed, but then CP3 has missed almost as many.

Just curious to know your thought process.

Apparently, the team winning without Harden boosts hardens value while the same team losing without Paul boosts Paul's value. Meanwhile LeBron gets downgraded for playing every game and carrying his team. Because, hey, LeBron should somehow be penalized for his teammates being injured and inconsistent. Never-mind that he's clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty much consensus MVP is Harden/LeBron as 1/2. And LeBron is hands down best player in the playoffs. So put him down at #4.

For some reason it feels like Doctor MJ, who I really respect as a poster, has developed an anti-lebron bias over the years. This wasn't always the case.

Still isn't, and if I did my friend, you wouldn't be the one who could objectively call me out on it, because you are not remotely unbiased here. And c'mon, you know this. LeBron is your boy. It's cool, as long as you recognize that you are not objective about him, and don't allege bias against him to those who somehow aren't as positive about LJ for POY as lj4mvp.

Your own retro player of the year project has him POY 6 out of 8 years. I didn't see the voting, but would be surprised if he was any lower than #2 the other two years. I also haven't seen the results for last year.

This year he had one of his best statistical seasons of his career, setting multiple career highs in the process, and is thus far having a top 3 all time playoffs (PER 36.5) with one of the two better ones being one if his previous playoffs.

He took a team that otherwise has no business making the playoffs and who wasn't fully healthy a single game all season to a division title, then took that same team that has no business winning a playoff game to a series win, with an absurd PER of 44.6 in the 4 wins.

Best player in the playoffs, at worst 2nd best player in the regular season, played every game.

And my being a LeBron fan doesn't change how well he's played this season and this playoffs. He's pretty clearly still the best player on the planet.

[Doctor MJ]

Mitchell and Simmons are leading contenders past the first round of the playoffs. This is not something that would have been said about those other two pairs.

Neither of them is the best player in their team. That's not something you could say about Jordan or Hakeem.

Well sure, but you could say something similar about Magic. If you personally see Jordan or Hakeem as as impressive as Magic in their respective rookie years, then I'd expect us to disagree.

Part of what I'm raving about here is just seeing them instinctively play winning ball. Most star take time to figure out how to impact like this.

[eminence]

LBJ was in no way clearly the #2 player during the regular season. He was complete ass on defense all year (and it wasn't great vs the Pacers either).

[Doctor MJ]

Apparently, the team winning without Harden boosts hardens value while the same team losing without Paul boosts Paul's value. Meanwhile LeBron gets downgraded for playing every game and carrying his team. Because, hey, LeBron should somehow be penalized for his teammates being injured and inconsistent. Never-mind that he's clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty much consensus MVP is Harden/LeBron as 1/2. And LeBron is hands down best player in the playoffs. So put him down at #4.

For some reason it feels like Doctor MJ, who I really respect as a poster, has developed an anti-lebron bias over the years. This wasn't always the case.

Still isn't, and if I did my friend, you wouldn't be the one who could objectively call me out on it, because you are not remotely unbiased here. And c'mon, you know this. LeBron is your boy. It's cool, as long as you recognize that you are not objective about him, and don't allege bias against him to those who somehow aren't as positive about LJ for POY as lj4mvp.

Your own retro player of the year project has him POY 6 out of 8 years. I didn't see the voting, but would be surprised if he was any lower than #2 the other two years. I also haven't seen the results for last year.

This year he had one of his best statistical seasons of his career, setting multiple career highs in the process, and is thus far having a top 3 all time playoffs (PER 36.5) with one of the two better ones being one if his previous playoffs.

He took a team that otherwise has no business making the playoffs and who wasn't fully healthy a single game all season to a division title, then took that same team that has no business winning a playoff game to a series win, with an absurd PER of 44.6 in the 4 wins.

Best player in the playoffs, at worst 2nd best player in the regular season, played every game.

And my being a LeBron fan doesn't change how well he's played this season and this playoffs. He's pretty clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty sure I've voted for him for POY every time the committee has. Think it's actually 7 times in 9 years.

Not sure I'm understanding though. Are you assuming that my votes were more anti-LeBron than other people's, or asserting that my recent criticism of LeBron means that is must have recently contracted an acute case of hating LeBron?

[dhsilv2]

Mitchell and Simmons are leading contenders past the first round of the playoffs. This is not something that would have been said about those other two pairs.

Neither of them is the best player in their team. That's not something you could say about Jordan or Hakeem.

Someone brought this up on another thread and I didn't engage, but I think over the last quarter of the year and playoffs Simmons is absolutely better than Embiid.

[Doctor MJ]

Mitchell and Simmons are leading contenders past the first round of the playoffs. This is not something that would have been said about those other two pairs.

Neither of them is the best player in their team. That's not something you could say about Jordan or Hakeem.

Someone brought this up on another thread and I didn't engage, but I think over the last quarter of the year and playoffs Simmons is absolutely better than Embiid.

I'd have to agree and I'll add that if Utah does manage to get to the next round, pretty sure Mitchell will have had to play like a superstar to pull it off. He may not be the MVP of his team, but he's very clearly the offense's alpha.

[eminence]

Updated eliminated leaderboard:

1. Victor Oladipo - Came out of nowhere to lead a surprisingly successful Pacers squad, spot will fluctuate a bit based on what the Cavs show going forward.
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Team just can't seem to make the jump, but I believe he's still progressing even if it's slowed.
3. Russell Westbrook - Regressed a bit from last year, but much of the backlash is from overhype, the Thunder looked like a 2nd tier team at best coming into the season and they achieved about what they should imo.
4. Nikola Jokic - RS compared to the 3 above, but a bit lower minutes and didn't get to show out in the playoffs. Looked good in the closest thing you'll see to the playoffs.
5. Kemba Walker - Another solid RS from Kemba, hope we get to see him in the playoffs again soon.

HM:
Lillard - Had a great RS, but really laid an egg come playoff time, tough matchup and all but you've got to be better than that.
Aldridge - Just wasn't quite good enough.
Butler - Missed a bunch of games and wasn't the same when he returned.
Towns - Solid during the RS, struggled in his playoff debut.

Obviously many of the best players are still playing but it's interesting to see who can hang onto their spots (realistically Oladipo feels like the only one who might).

[dhsilv2]

Neither of them is the best player in their team. That's not something you could say about Jordan or Hakeem.

Someone brought this up on another thread and I didn't engage, but I think over the last quarter of the year and playoffs Simmons is absolutely better than Embiid.

I'd have to agree and I'll add that if Utah does manage to get to the next round, pretty sure Mitchell will have had to play like a superstar to pull it off. He may not be the MVP of his team, but he's very clearly the offense's alpha.

I still will never get this alpha stuff, but he will be the primary scorer for that team and big play guy. That said if they make the next round, Rubio is coming back early and is averaging a triple double along with mitchel's 30+. Maybe I'm biased but Rubio play absolutely wonderfully everytime I had those games on. In terms of taking the ball, they both seem to know to let the other guy run with it when they're hot and to take control when they're needed. They were a lot of fun to watch in that series.

[Joey Wheeler]

Jrue is not a role player. Unless “running the offense” is a role. Nobody who runs so much of his offense from iso and pick and roll can be labeled with that term.

He’s not a star, but as a #2 guy you could clearly do worse. For example, Cleveland, Washington, Toronto, Boston, Indiana, San Antonio, Utah, Milwaukee, and Miami all do worse with their second option. That’s 9/16 teams in the postseason. Jrue is a keeper. He’s been their best player some nights.

Cleveland - Love
Washington - Beal
Toronto - Lowry/Derozan
Utah - Mitchell

All these are easily better than Jrue.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, but you're clearly not contending with him as your 2nd best player... especially considering the lack of depth in the roster overall.

There are 3 elite players in this series, Warriors have 2 of them. Plus they have 2 other players clearly better than any non-AD guy on the Pelicans, a GOAT-level shooter and a DPOY. They also have much better depth. It's not a matchup issue, just a complete mismatch talent-wise. Pels would have a more realistic shot if Cousins was fit.

So by your definition what is a role player? What is a clear way for us to identify this?

The traditional definition is a player of specialized skills who is generally a bench player. So a guy like Bowen who is primarily a defensive stopper could be seen as an elite all time great role player. A guy like Kerr who was a floor spacer is a role player, and an elite one as well. Today we see this term used for guys who cannot run an offense. However Jrue is a great offensive player who can both run the offense, create for himself, and he can create for others. AD very rarely creates offense for others and mostly scores off ball through movement and screens. By the "newer" and shall we say confusing role player standard we often get AD would fall closer to that than Jrue would despite scoring more points.

So again how do you define role player in a way that Jrue is one?

A role player for me is someone who mostly sticks to specific tasks on the court and depends on the gravity of the star players for their production and impact. This is Jrue, he benefits tremendously from AD's gravity on offense and rim protection on defense to be able to do his stuff, and even then he can be greatly diminished vs good defensive teams. I don't think his level from the Portland series really reflects who he is as a player...

The Pelicans without Cousins and AD would have been in the 'tankers' pack to end the season for sure...

[ronnymac2]

Victor should be getting top 5 consideration IMO

+25.7 on/off before this game for series. They were +1 with him and lost by 4

It was the story of the season for Pacers. Theyre a lottery team without him. Next series will show us more but IMO his defense on the perimeter was the biggest reason Cavs had shooting woes all series. Lebrons defense was shaky throughout despite the numbers he put up i think Victor was just as good in this series. I dont think Toronto will have same success defending Cavs shooting

Victor was arguably the 2nd best perimeter defender in the Nba behind Andre Roberson in 2018

Whoa.

I agree with everything you say about his defense, but offensively, Oladipo was ass for much of the series. Was tremendous in GM6 and GM7, but other than that, not good. LeBron's offense was insane this series, and his defense was slightly above average (his contested rebounding was great and he wasn't the mistake factory he was in the REG SEA)) though obviously inferior to his defense from years past and clearly inferior to Oladipo's defensive performance as well. Still, LBJ's offense was more impactful than Oladipo's defense. James was clearly the best player in the series.

As an aside...Is Thad Young the most underrated player in the league?

[INKtastic]

Still isn't, and if I did my friend, you wouldn't be the one who could objectively call me out on it, because you are not remotely unbiased here. And c'mon, you know this. LeBron is your boy. It's cool, as long as you recognize that you are not objective about him, and don't allege bias against him to those who somehow aren't as positive about LJ for POY as lj4mvp.

Your own retro player of the year project has him POY 6 out of 8 years. I didn't see the voting, but would be surprised if he was any lower than #2 the other two years. I also haven't seen the results for last year.

This year he had one of his best statistical seasons of his career, setting multiple career highs in the process, and is thus far having a top 3 all time playoffs (PER 36.5) with one of the two better ones being one if his previous playoffs.

He took a team that otherwise has no business making the playoffs and who wasn't fully healthy a single game all season to a division title, then took that same team that has no business winning a playoff game to a series win, with an absurd PER of 44.6 in the 4 wins.

Best player in the playoffs, at worst 2nd best player in the regular season, played every game.

And my being a LeBron fan doesn't change how well he's played this season and this playoffs. He's pretty clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty sure I've voted for him for POY every time the committee has. Think it's actually 7 times in 9 years.

Not sure I'm understanding though. Are you assuming that my votes were more anti-LeBron than other people's, or asserting that my recent criticism of LeBron means that is must have recently contracted an acute case of hating LeBron?

No, I’m only referring to this year and perhaps last year.

You downgrade LeBron for Kyrie leaving. I don’t recall you doing the same with Westbrook when Durant left.

If I recall correctly, last year you downgraded LeBron for missing too many games, yet this year when LeBron plays every game you have Chris Pau ahead of him. Correct me if I’m confusing you with another poster on this.

Like I said earlier, I respect you as a poster you are one of the people on here I really pay attention to.

I brought up prior poy voting because LeBron, who dominates that, just had one of his best seasons ever and is thus far having one of the best playoffs of all time. I don’t see how a player who missed the number of games Chris pau has could be Ahmed of him. And why does Davis get extra credit for winning without cousins. But LeBron gets downgraded for winning without Kyrie.

[eminence]

Doc voted LBJ #1 last year - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1587974&hilit=POY&start=20

I do think Doc is a little high on CP3 in general this season, but he has played well when he's played.

[dhsilv2]

Cleveland - Love
Washington - Beal
Toronto - Lowry/Derozan
Utah - Mitchell

All these are easily better than Jrue.

I'm not saying he's a bad player, but you're clearly not contending with him as your 2nd best player... especially considering the lack of depth in the roster overall.

There are 3 elite players in this series, Warriors have 2 of them. Plus they have 2 other players clearly better than any non-AD guy on the Pelicans, a GOAT-level shooter and a DPOY. They also have much better depth. It's not a matchup issue, just a complete mismatch talent-wise. Pels would have a more realistic shot if Cousins was fit.

So by your definition what is a role player? What is a clear way for us to identify this?

The traditional definition is a player of specialized skills who is generally a bench player. So a guy like Bowen who is primarily a defensive stopper could be seen as an elite all time great role player. A guy like Kerr who was a floor spacer is a role player, and an elite one as well. Today we see this term used for guys who cannot run an offense. However Jrue is a great offensive player who can both run the offense, create for himself, and he can create for others. AD very rarely creates offense for others and mostly scores off ball through movement and screens. By the "newer" and shall we say confusing role player standard we often get AD would fall closer to that than Jrue would despite scoring more points.

So again how do you define role player in a way that Jrue is one?

A role player for me is someone who mostly sticks to specific tasks on the court and depends on the gravity of the star players for their production and impact. This is Jrue, he benefits tremendously from AD's gravity on offense and rim protection on defense to be able to do his stuff, and even then he can be greatly diminished vs good defensive teams. I don't think his level from the Portland series really reflects who he is as a player...

The Pelicans without Cousins and AD would have been in the 'tankers' pack to end the season for sure...

Holiday was an allstar before he ever went to philly and he's had injury after injury, but when healthy he has always been a boarder line allstar. That said AD benefits as much from Holiday and Holiday does from AD. The guy averaged 19 for the season, it isn't like the Portland series is the first time I was a capable scorer or defender.

[INKtastic]

Doc voted LBJ #1 last year - viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1587974&hilit=POY&start=20

I do think Doc is a little high on CP3 in general this season, but he has played well when he's played.

Thanks. I don’t think I saw that thread.

[Doctor MJ]

Your own retro player of the year project has him POY 6 out of 8 years. I didn't see the voting, but would be surprised if he was any lower than #2 the other two years. I also haven't seen the results for last year.

This year he had one of his best statistical seasons of his career, setting multiple career highs in the process, and is thus far having a top 3 all time playoffs (PER 36.5) with one of the two better ones being one if his previous playoffs.

He took a team that otherwise has no business making the playoffs and who wasn't fully healthy a single game all season to a division title, then took that same team that has no business winning a playoff game to a series win, with an absurd PER of 44.6 in the 4 wins.

Best player in the playoffs, at worst 2nd best player in the regular season, played every game.

And my being a LeBron fan doesn't change how well he's played this season and this playoffs. He's pretty clearly still the best player on the planet.

Pretty sure I've voted for him for POY every time the committee has. Think it's actually 7 times in 9 years.

Not sure I'm understanding though. Are you assuming that my votes were more anti-LeBron than other people's, or asserting that my recent criticism of LeBron means that is must have recently contracted an acute case of hating LeBron?

No, I’m only referring to this year and perhaps last year.

You downgrade LeBron for Kyrie leaving. I don’t recall you doing the same with Westbrook when Durant left.

If I recall correctly, last year you downgraded LeBron for missing too many games, yet this year when LeBron plays every game you have Chris Pau ahead of him. Correct me if I’m confusing you with another poster on this.

Like I said earlier, I respect you as a poster you are one of the people on here I really pay attention to.

I brought up prior poy voting because LeBron, who dominates that, just had one of his best seasons ever and is thus far having one of the best playoffs of all time. I don’t see how a player who missed the number of games Chris pau has could be Ahmed of him. And why does Davis get extra credit for winning without cousins. But LeBron gets downgraded for winning without Kyrie.

I absolutely did it with Westbrook when Durant left. Ask bondom. Pretty sure he felt a lot like you do now. You may recall I had a long history of drawing the ire of Kobe fans despite being born and raised an Angeleno Laker fan, and certainly other fanbases have felt similarly irritated by me (Hi Iverson fans!).

To the deeper point, it just seems we're in an impasse. I freely admit that I factor in the loss of Kyrie into my evaluation of LeBron in a way that you and many others don't agree with. You would say it's blaming the player for things beyond his control, while I would say that it is just factoring in the whole picture, and doing so without absolute beliefs of single causes and effects. It's okay we don't see things the same way.