ECSF: P1 | (1) Toronto Raptors vs Cleveland Cavaliers (4) | TIED 0-0

[LightTheBeam]

Wrong. Regular season DOES matter. It's not the end all be all but in most cases the regular season shows how good a team is. And the Warriors still won 58 games this year. A 58 win season is a great season and that's in spite of all the injuries they had and they were coasting as well. Many people thought the Cavs were just coasting this year and that they would flip the switch once the playoffs started but nope, they were all wrong. The Cavs are just not good this year as evidenced by them being taken to 7 by the 5th seeded Pacers. You can't say that the regular season is irrelevant here when the Cavs are still playing on a similar level in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. Last year's Cavs flipped the switch by sweeping the Pacers in their first round series. This year is different and the Cavs have declined greatly.

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

And things would have ended earlier if Fred didn't get hurt.

Fred is good, but if you are counting on a 20MPG player to put you over the top, you are going to have serious problems come playoff time.

[Raps in 4]

Man this board is really going downhill. All the massive crowd of Raptors fans jump down your throat if you have a negative opinion of them.

Sorry demar DeRozan **** the bed last year against the Cavs in the playoffs. You lost tucker, Joseph, and Powell regressed. Those guys were replaced by rookie OG, siakam, and FVV picking up a bigger role. I'm sorry i don't see the huge improvement you guys see.

Damn dude it's so annoying. If you have anything bad to say about them, you get quoted 16 times with personal attacks. Its **** basketball man, get a life.

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=MIN*G*200

But you "don't see the huge improvement".

The 4th best lineup (1 higher than Raptors mind you) is J.Barea, Y.Ferrell, D.Harris, D.Nowitzki, D.Powell. Using this as the end all be all is a bit of a joke, wouldnt you agree?

Do you know what those numbers mean? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

[everdiso]

I guess the warriors got worse as well. Regular season is irrelevant rockets won more than golden state, do you consider them favorites as well?

Wrong. Regular season DOES matter. It's not the end all be all but in most cases the regular season shows how good a team is. And the Warriors still won 58 games this year. A 58 win season is a great season and that's in spite of all the injuries they had and they were coasting as well. Many people thought the Cavs were just coasting this year and that they would flip the switch once the playoffs started but nope, they were all wrong. The Cavs are just not good this year as evidenced by them being taken to 7 by the 5th seeded Pacers. You can't say that the regular season is irrelevant here when the Cavs are still playing on a similar level in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. Last year's Cavs flipped the switch by sweeping the Pacers in their first round series. This year is different and the Cavs have declined greatly.

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

Regular season

WSH: +0.6ppg (15tg), +0.7netrtg (16th)
IND: +1.4ppg (12th), +1.6netrtg (12th)

pretty close. and that's with Wall missing half the year.

of course the real difference is that indiana actually outplayed Cleveland overall this series. washington didn't outplay toronto.

[LightTheBeam]

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=MIN*G*200

But you "don't see the huge improvement".

The 4th best lineup (1 higher than Raptors mind you) is J.Barea, Y.Ferrell, D.Harris, D.Nowitzki, D.Powell. Using this as the end all be all is a bit of a joke, wouldnt you agree?

Do you know what those numbers mean? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

You realize that context matter right? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

[Raps in 4]

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

And things would have ended earlier if Fred didn't get hurt.

Fred is good, but if you are counting on a 20MPG player to put you over the top, you are going to have serious problems come playoff time.

3.49 RPM this year (25th in the NBA). He was the team's third best player all year.

The starting lineup with Fred instaed of OG (where the matchup allows it) is +24 (good for third best in the league among lineups with 100+ minutes).

He also leads the best bench unit in the game.

Fred Van Vleet is a very good basketball player and absolutely a difference maker.

[jonjames]

I guess the warriors got worse as well. Regular season is irrelevant rockets won more than golden state, do you consider them favorites as well?

Wrong. Regular season DOES matter. It's not the end all be all but in most cases the regular season shows how good a team is. And the Warriors still won 58 games this year. A 58 win season is a great season and that's in spite of all the injuries they had and they were coasting as well. Many people thought the Cavs were just coasting this year and that they would flip the switch once the playoffs started but nope, they were all wrong. The Cavs are just not good this year as evidenced by them being taken to 7 by the 5th seeded Pacers. You can't say that the regular season is irrelevant here when the Cavs are still playing on a similar level in the playoffs as they did in the regular season. Last year's Cavs flipped the switch by sweeping the Pacers in their first round series. This year is different and the Cavs have declined greatly.

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

The Raptors lost two games on the ROAD. Where they've been struggling since the end of their regular season (lost 4 of their last 5 road games in the regular season). What is the reason for this? I don't know. Probably a mental thing with them. But they took care of business at home which is a good sign and they closed it out in 6 on the road despite trailing in halftime (first time they won road playoff game after trailing at halftime). You know what last year's Raptors did? They lost game 1 at home to the Bucks for 14 points and then lose game 3 by 27. This is the first series Toronto did not trail in the series. Also Washington had the 2nd longest home playoff winning streak at 8 behind only Golden State and Toronto snapped that streak. Another good sign. If Toronto has any self respect then they will beat this Cavs team which I think they will. The Pacers lost 3 years straight to the Heatles but in all 3 years Miami was the better team (even in 2014, Heat had higher SRS than Indiana despite Wade missing 28 games in regular season). The Raptors lost 2 years straight to the Cavs but in both years Cleveland was better and should have won each series. This year there is no way anyone can make the argument that the Cavs are better than the Raptors. All the advanced stats say otherwise and the Cavs performance in the first round say otherwise as well.

[Raps in 4]

The 4th best lineup (1 higher than Raptors mind you) is J.Barea, Y.Ferrell, D.Harris, D.Nowitzki, D.Powell. Using this as the end all be all is a bit of a joke, wouldnt you agree?

Do you know what those numbers mean? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

You realize that context matter right? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

Where did I say it didn't? You seem to be making a strawman argument because you don't have a rebuttal to the actual argument being made.

[spicy4MVP]

I cant fall asleep because I am so depressed we have to play LBJ already in just round 2! Cavs are in my head. WE THE NORTH fear cavs more than houston or golden state combined!

[Kabookalu]

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

And things would have ended earlier if Fred didn't get hurt.

Fred is good, but if you are counting on a 20MPG player to put you over the top, you are going to have serious problems come playoff time.

And we did, our bench mob who consistently outplayed our starters in the regular season were easily our worst lineup in the playoffs. They were a negative 9.9 in the first 5 games. The game that Fred came back, he pulled us out of a 10 point deficit in the 2nd quarter, and brought us back from 5 down in the 4th to help Toronto take the lead and widen it. And that was with Washington having both Beal and Wall in while we had our entire bench unit out there, the ones that were costing us games all series long with the difference being that we played Fred instead of Norman Powell.

Besides, it's not like the starters are trash and Fred has to carry them, the starters are still a good lineup, it's just that the bench outperforms them, and it's all because of Fred.

[jonjames]

I cant fall asleep because I am so depressed we have to play LBJ already in just round 2! Cavs are in my head. WE THE NORTH fear cavs more than houston or golden state combined!

Fake fan

[Red Shoelace]

So the Cavs going 7 with the Pacers means the Cavs greatly declined. But the Raptors going 6 with the much worse Wizards shouldnt matter?

Had the Raptors swept the Wizards, I would be signing a different tune. But the Wizards limped into the post season, had chemistry issues all year, and still took you guys to 6. It quite possibly could have been 7 if Otto never gets injured.

Wash has more star power than Indy

"Star power" is overrated, if you don't have elite star power. Theres a huge difference between Warriors/Rockets star power, and Raptors/Washington star power. Wizards bench is also putrid, Pacers have one of the best benches in the league.

Bojan won Indi a game. Indiana almost had 7 players average double figures for the series. Every single guy they put on the court can hit 3's and defend. Indiana would beat Wizards in 5, 6 at most.

Like I said, should be an interesting series. I see FVV and your bench mob winning a game for you. I also see Derozan/Lowry winning a game for you. Beyond that, its going to get tough. And one thing that you guys said is OG is your best defender, but hes also a huge liability on offense. And you don't stretch the floor like Indiana did. Its easy to double off OG to help on Derozan or Lowry, same can't be said doubling off Bojan to help on Dipo.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html#playoffs_per_minute::none

Per 36 in playoffs this year

.467 3pt%
1.9 3PM
.750 2p%
12.9 Pts

Any other incorrect statements from you?

[OriginalRed]

For Toronto to beat Lebron, these are the key elements that need to go in their favor.

- The Cavs outside of Lebron have to continue to play sub par basketball. If they shoot like they did in the regular season and previous play offs, Toronto doesn't have a prayer.
- 1 on 1 pressure defense against Lebron. The Raptors are the worst offenders of sending help to contain Lebron and they have to realize that letting Lebron exhaust himself trying to score 40 + points one on one, even if it means giving up easy baskets, is much better than him having half the points but double the assists as Korver, JR, Love, and Calderon knock down three's on them.
- JV has to be used in this series more. Casey always overreacts whenever JV gets torched at the 5 and subs him out to try and match Cleveland's small ball line up. I get it, he's slow as hell and can't cover the 5 but the opposite is also true, the Cavs have no answer for him and he will wreck **** in the paint. Look at Sabonis, he was dropping buckets in the paint on easy pick and rolls.
- Ibaka has to be better than what he was against Washington in the last couple of games. When he's making shots, blocking dudes, and rebounding like a mad man, that's when the Raptors are at their most dangerous.

[LightTheBeam]

Do you know what those numbers mean? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

You realize that context matter right? Because it doesn't sound like you do.

Where did I say it didn't? You seem to be making a strawman argument because you don't have a rebuttal to the actual argument being made.

I'm strawmanning? I literally showed you how its flawed because the 4th highest rated lineup was a 20 win team. And you completely ignore my point and go to attack my knowledge? LOL get real dude.

[LightTheBeam]

Wash has more star power than Indy

"Star power" is overrated, if you don't have elite star power. Theres a huge difference between Warriors/Rockets star power, and Raptors/Washington star power. Wizards bench is also putrid, Pacers have one of the best benches in the league.

Bojan won Indi a game. Indiana almost had 7 players average double figures for the series. Every single guy they put on the court can hit 3's and defend. Indiana would beat Wizards in 5, 6 at most.

Like I said, should be an interesting series. I see FVV and your bench mob winning a game for you. I also see Derozan/Lowry winning a game for you. Beyond that, its going to get tough. And one thing that you guys said is OG is your best defender, but hes also a huge liability on offense. And you don't stretch the floor like Indiana did. Its easy to double off OG to help on Derozan or Lowry, same can't be said doubling off Bojan to help on Dipo.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html#playoffs_per_minute::none

Per 36 in playoffs this year

.467 3pt%
1.9 3PM
.750 2p%
12.9 Pts

Any other incorrect statements from you?

HE shot 15 3's the entire series. Bojan shot 38 at 42%. Lol, you don't think theres a difference between the 2?

[mowcrowbar]

I guess the warriors got worse as well. Regular season is irrelevant rockets won more than golden state, do you consider them favorites as well?

Your point was that the raptors got worse or did not noticeably improve from last season because they lost CJ and PJ- false. The bench bailed out Toronto all season long, just as they did in game 6. It's lazy just to blanket everything by saying "derozan sucks, he chokes." I'm not saying Toronto are favourites over Cleveland, but they sure as hell got better and the Cavs have gotten much worse than last year.

Also, Curry missed 31 games this season, which is why their record suffered.

Actually that was never my argument. My argument was that "I don't see the huge improvement you guys do". Did the Raptors get better, absolutely. Hence why you will lose in 6 instead of being swept.

That IS your bloody point then...

Your point was that the raptors got worse or did not noticeably improve from last season because they lost CJ and PJ

[LightTheBeam]

Your point was that the raptors got worse or did not noticeably improve from last season because they lost CJ and PJ- false. The bench bailed out Toronto all season long, just as they did in game 6. It's lazy just to blanket everything by saying "derozan sucks, he chokes." I'm not saying Toronto are favourites over Cleveland, but they sure as hell got better and the Cavs have gotten much worse than last year.

Also, Curry missed 31 games this season, which is why their record suffered.

Actually that was never my argument. My argument was that "I don't see the huge improvement you guys do". Did the Raptors get better, absolutely. Hence why you will lose in 6 instead of being swept.

That IS your bloody point then...

Your point was that the raptors got worse or did not noticeably improve from last season because they lost CJ and PJ

My point is this year your savior is FVV, last year your savior was Powell... You guys got better, you guys didn't get better enough for me to say you'll overtake the GOAT.

[WWSRD]

LeBron looks like he's already wearing down and getting cranky. Cramping up/Admitting he's exhausted and he needs to go home in the post-game, after a win in a game7.

How long and how hard is he going to want to carry this team with no shot at a title.

- Probably a sweep in the finals if it comes to that.
- Most likely loses in round 3, if not round 2, regardless of what he does.
- He's clearly leaving this summer.

I know he'll go down swinging, but his heart might not be in it for long and that could be the difference between 30/7/7 LeBron and 40/15//10 LeBron

[SFour]

I cant fall asleep because I am so depressed we have to play LBJ already in just round 2! Cavs are in my head. WE THE NORTH fear cavs more than houston or golden state combined!

bro if Raptors can't beat Cavs they don't deserve to play against much better teams like Rockets, Warriors, and even Philly

[diamondsfinest]

"Star power" is overrated, if you don't have elite star power. Theres a huge difference between Warriors/Rockets star power, and Raptors/Washington star power. Wizards bench is also putrid, Pacers have one of the best benches in the league.

Bojan won Indi a game. Indiana almost had 7 players average double figures for the series. Every single guy they put on the court can hit 3's and defend. Indiana would beat Wizards in 5, 6 at most.

Like I said, should be an interesting series. I see FVV and your bench mob winning a game for you. I also see Derozan/Lowry winning a game for you. Beyond that, its going to get tough. And one thing that you guys said is OG is your best defender, but hes also a huge liability on offense. And you don't stretch the floor like Indiana did. Its easy to double off OG to help on Derozan or Lowry, same can't be said doubling off Bojan to help on Dipo.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anunoog01.html#playoffs_per_minute::none

Per 36 in playoffs this year

.467 3pt%
1.9 3PM
.750 2p%
12.9 Pts

Any other incorrect statements from you?

HE shot 15 3's the entire series. Bojan shot 38 at 42%. Lol, you don't think theres a difference between the 2?

Bojan's the second option while Stephenson takes the 3rd most shot.

But everyone in the starting lineup can shoot 3's so yeah.

[diamondsfinest]

LeBron looks like he's already wearing down and getting cranky. Cramping up/Admitting he's exhausted and he needs to go home in the post-game, after a win in a game7.

How long and how hard is he going to want to carry this team with no shot at a title.

- Probably a sweep in the finals if it comes to that.
- Most likely loses in round 3, if not round 2, regardless of what he does.
- He's clearly leaving this summer.

I know he'll go down swinging, but his heart might not be in it for long and that could be the difference between 30/7/7 LeBron and 40/15//10 LeBron

see the thing about Lebron is he won't give up in a series like that, but he could run out of breath.