'17-'18 POY discussion

[Dr Spaceman]

I want to comment on how great Curry was tonight, but Draymond was amazing. I figure he's not going to get his due, and I know he's likely out of the top 5 conversation, but if Horford is getting love, Dray has a similar resume.

And to Curry +26...just amazing game after a month off.

Draymond completely took Davis out of the game in the 4th and is the reason GSW was able to hold off that Pelicans run (along with Durant’s absurd shot making over double teams). I’m glad playoff Dray is back.

Curry was great too. Although I find it a bit troubling that after a month of learning to play without him Curry comes back and the dependency issues come right back with him.

I think New Orleans will win 1 or both of the next games at home but this one should be over in 5 or 6.

[dhsilv2]

I want to comment on how great Curry was tonight, but Draymond was amazing. I figure he's not going to get his due, and I know he's likely out of the top 5 conversation, but if Horford is getting love, Dray has a similar resume.

And to Curry +26...just amazing game after a month off.

Draymond completely took Davis out of the game in the 4th and is the reason GSW was able to hold off that Pelicans run (along with Durant’s absurd shot making over double teams). I’m glad playoff Dray is back.

Curry was great too. Although I find it a bit troubling that after a month of learning to play without him Curry comes back and the dependency issues come right back with him.

I think New Orleans will win 1 or both of the next games at home but this one should be over in 5 or 6.

Well Klay just couldn't hit a shot to save his life. I was working during the game...ok I was on my laptop piddling around mostly but was distracted so maybe I missed some, but if Klay just shot well I don't think Curry would have looked as dominate.

[bondom34]

28 on 15 shots after weeks off. lol

[Dr Spaceman]

I want to comment on how great Curry was tonight, but Draymond was amazing. I figure he's not going to get his due, and I know he's likely out of the top 5 conversation, but if Horford is getting love, Dray has a similar resume.

And to Curry +26...just amazing game after a month off.

Draymond completely took Davis out of the game in the 4th and is the reason GSW was able to hold off that Pelicans run (along with Durant’s absurd shot making over double teams). I’m glad playoff Dray is back.

Curry was great too. Although I find it a bit troubling that after a month of learning to play without him Curry comes back and the dependency issues come right back with him.

I think New Orleans will win 1 or both of the next games at home but this one should be over in 5 or 6.

Well Klay just couldn't hit a shot to save his life. I was working during the game...ok I was on my laptop piddling around mostly but was distracted so maybe I missed some, but if Klay just shot well I don't think Curry would have looked as dominate.

He was guarded by Jrue though (although late game Jrue took the Durant assignment) so I don’t know how much we can expect him to return to form honestly as long as that is the case.

[NinjaSheppard]

Didn't get a chance to watch but seems like most people are in agreement we got hosed by the refs. Really didn't like the officiating in game 1 but I didn't mention it as they just dominated us so much that it didn't matter.

Anthony Davis shooting 0 free throws is a joke though.

Jrue Holiday needs to focus less on being a basketball player on offense and more on manipulating refs and drawing jabroni fouls. He plays the game way too honestly for these moments.

[dhsilv2]

Draymond completely took Davis out of the game in the 4th and is the reason GSW was able to hold off that Pelicans run (along with Durant’s absurd shot making over double teams). I’m glad playoff Dray is back.

Curry was great too. Although I find it a bit troubling that after a month of learning to play without him Curry comes back and the dependency issues come right back with him.

I think New Orleans will win 1 or both of the next games at home but this one should be over in 5 or 6.

Well Klay just couldn't hit a shot to save his life. I was working during the game...ok I was on my laptop piddling around mostly but was distracted so maybe I missed some, but if Klay just shot well I don't think Curry would have looked as dominate.

He was guarded by Jrue though (although late game Jrue took the Durant assignment) so I don’t know how much we can expect him to return to form honestly as long as that is the case.

Jrue is great, but 4-20? He doesn't take 20 shots that often (11 times this year), so I don't buy for a second that was all Jrue. Great defense often reduces shot attempts.

[Outside]

What ceiling is he limiting for the Cavs?

As great as LeBron is, as great an athlete as he is, this level of play is unsustainable for long in the playoffs. He's already said how tired he was after the Indiana series, and that's just one round. It's so predictable that he'll drive to the basket repeatedly in the first half, then settle for jump shots in the second half, a clear indication of reduced energy within games.

Being the single, overriding focus of the offense, no matter how great he is, means that quality defenses can load up on him, creating a wall on his drives and forcing him into more perimeter shots. An offense that relies on a single player is more vulnerable to being limited by the defense.

He clearly does not trust his teammates. The other Cavs know this. They are not the high-performing offense of years past led by LeBron's performance. LeBron's individual PS ORtg is 128.6, but the Cavs PS ORtg as a team is 104.5, which is 13th out of 16 playoff teams.They were first in ORtg in 2017 (120.3) and 2016 (115.5). They are tied with the Pacers at last in pace -- how well is this offense going to perform, and how well will LeBron's energy and production hold up, when they are forced to play faster?

The Cavs PS DRtg is 11th, and the only teams lower than them are out of the playoffs. They are 14th in effective FG%, 15th in TOV%, 2nd in 3PA but 15th in 3P%.

How you view this is open to interpretation. The other Cavs bear responsibility for the generally poor team performance, but I can't put all the blame there. LeBron deserved credit in prior years when his singular talent was the engine driving excellent team performance. He also bears responsibility for when that engine is disconnected from the team. It's like he's taking the approach that redlining the engine is the only way to keep them in the race, and you're pointing to the engine output as remarkable, which it is, but it's not sustainable, and the odds of being successful in the long run are slim to non-existent.

But hey, it's the East, so maybe he'll will his way into the finals. He's LeBron, so maybe the Raptors will crumble as they have in the past, leaving only the broken Celtics or neophyte Sixers in the finals. LeBron is remarkable as a floor raiser, and maybe the floor goes that high. But that limited ceiling will become evident at some point.

I get what you’re saying. The closer you run to your max heart rate, it becomes exponentially harder to keep that up over a distance.

That said, why should we penalize LeBron for this high-effort approach? Do you realistically think this current Cavs roster could ever, under any circumstances, make or win the Finals? So what is LeBron saving his energy for? Long-term sustainability isn’t really a factor for me if your team as no long-term shot of winning but you maximize their chances in the short term.

What we're doing is comparing performances between the top candidates. One way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize LeBron for producing at an unsustainable level. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize other candidates for playing at a sustainable level just because they have a legitimate chance of competing for a title.

Production matters, and I give LeBron credit for that. But in my mind, another factor to consider for POY is how well the player helps his team compete for a title. In my view, the way LeBron played in the first round falls short in that area. I thought he played much better from a team perspective in game 1 against Toronto, so that's a hopeful sign. I actually do think the Cavs can make the finals, but they're not going to get there unless LeBron starts truly trusting and involving his teammates and stops trying to do everything himself.

[dhsilv2]

Didn't get a chance to watch but seems like most people are in agreement we got hosed by the refs. Really didn't like the officiating in game 1 but I didn't mention it as they just dominated us so much that it didn't matter.

Anthony Davis shooting 0 free throws is a joke though.

Jrue Holiday needs to focus less on being a basketball player on offense and more on manipulating refs and drawing jabroni fouls. He plays the game way too honestly for these moments.

It was NOT the refs.

[dhsilv2]

I get what you’re saying. The closer you run to your max heart rate, it becomes exponentially harder to keep that up over a distance.

That said, why should we penalize LeBron for this high-effort approach? Do you realistically think this current Cavs roster could ever, under any circumstances, make or win the Finals? So what is LeBron saving his energy for? Long-term sustainability isn’t really a factor for me if your team as no long-term shot of winning but you maximize their chances in the short term.

What we're doing is comparing performances between the top candidates. One way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize LeBron for producing at an unsustainable level. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize other candidates for playing at a sustainable level just because they have a legitimate chance of competing for a title.

Production matters, and I give LeBron credit for that. But in my mind, another factor to consider for POY is how well the player helps his team compete for a title. In my view, the way LeBron played in the first round falls short in that area. I thought he played much better from a team perspective in game 1 against Toronto, so that's a hopeful sign. I actually do think the Cavs can make the finals, but they're not going to get there unless LeBron starts truly trusting and involving his teammates and stops trying to do everything himself.[/quote]

Can I interject and ask you how much you think Indy's defense isolated Lebron and drove him being a 1 man iso scoring machine? I'll 100% admit that I tend to not turn on lebron games...so I only really saw about 3 and a half of the games and I missed some of the cav wins as a result. But the pacers really were imo doing a great job on the cavs other guys. Is that not a possibility or if you watched more maybe I missed something? I know talking about game 1 I said to a friend that I'd expect lebron's "help" to reappear due to the poor defense on the wings for the raptors. 1 game isn't a story but so far I don't look foolish.

[Outside]

Can I interject and ask you how much you think Indy's defense isolated Lebron and drove him being a 1 man iso scoring machine? I'll 100% admit that I tend to not turn on lebron games...so I only really saw about 3 and a half of the games and I missed some of the cav wins as a result. But the pacers really were imo doing a great job on the cavs other guys. Is that not a possibility or if you watched more maybe I missed something? I know talking about game 1 I said to a friend that I'd expect lebron's "help" to reappear due to the poor defense on the wings for the raptors. 1 game isn't a story but so far I don't look foolish.

I suppose you could say that Indy played that way because they seldom doubled LeBron, but the Cavs ran a lot of Houston-style offense where the other guys spread around the three-point line, then the designated guy came up and screened for LeBron to force a switch and get the mismatch they wanted, and the screener then ran away from LeBron to leave LeBron to iso against the defender. To double at that point requires having a defender leave his man and travel 20 feet or more, and by that time, it's too late.

It wasn't all like that, but there was a lot of it. That type of offense works if you have a great inside-outside iso player like LeBron or Harden plus catch-and-shoot guys like Korver or Eric Gordon, but it's not ideal for guys who score better in other ways like cutting or coming off screens, like Larry Nance or Rodney Hood. Houston's roster is built for exactly that, but Cleveland, not so much. Even a guy like Jeff Green does better when he's cutting and moving in the half court, not just standing in the corner.

Inserting Tristan Thompson has mixed it up a bit, which is good. He does a lot of his damage just being active on the boards, but he draws attention and gets guys moving instead of just standing outside waiting for a pass. I didn't see much of the Toronto game tonight, but the part I saw, I liked the Cavs team activity on offense much better. There was still some of the Houston-style offense, but I saw more of the other stuff.

[Dr Spaceman]

Didn't get a chance to watch but seems like most people are in agreement we got hosed by the refs. Really didn't like the officiating in game 1 but I didn't mention it as they just dominated us so much that it didn't matter.

Anthony Davis shooting 0 free throws is a joke though.

Jrue Holiday needs to focus less on being a basketball player on offense and more on manipulating refs and drawing jabroni fouls. He plays the game way too honestly for these moments.

It was NOT the refs.

Can’t stress this enough. The Warriors got great games from their three best guys (28 points in 27 min for Curry lol) and they are clearly the better team. The game ended up being closer realistically than it should have been.

[MisterHibachi]

As great as LeBron is, as great an athlete as he is, this level of play is unsustainable for long in the playoffs. He's already said how tired he was after the Indiana series, and that's just one round. It's so predictable that he'll drive to the basket repeatedly in the first half, then settle for jump shots in the second half, a clear indication of reduced energy within games.

Being the single, overriding focus of the offense, no matter how great he is, means that quality defenses can load up on him, creating a wall on his drives and forcing him into more perimeter shots. An offense that relies on a single player is more vulnerable to being limited by the defense.

He clearly does not trust his teammates. The other Cavs know this. They are not the high-performing offense of years past led by LeBron's performance. LeBron's individual PS ORtg is 128.6, but the Cavs PS ORtg as a team is 104.5, which is 13th out of 16 playoff teams.They were first in ORtg in 2017 (120.3) and 2016 (115.5). They are tied with the Pacers at last in pace -- how well is this offense going to perform, and how well will LeBron's energy and production hold up, when they are forced to play faster?

The Cavs PS DRtg is 11th, and the only teams lower than them are out of the playoffs. They are 14th in effective FG%, 15th in TOV%, 2nd in 3PA but 15th in 3P%.

How you view this is open to interpretation. The other Cavs bear responsibility for the generally poor team performance, but I can't put all the blame there. LeBron deserved credit in prior years when his singular talent was the engine driving excellent team performance. He also bears responsibility for when that engine is disconnected from the team. It's like he's taking the approach that redlining the engine is the only way to keep them in the race, and you're pointing to the engine output as remarkable, which it is, but it's not sustainable, and the odds of being successful in the long run are slim to non-existent.

But hey, it's the East, so maybe he'll will his way into the finals. He's LeBron, so maybe the Raptors will crumble as they have in the past, leaving only the broken Celtics or neophyte Sixers in the finals. LeBron is remarkable as a floor raiser, and maybe the floor goes that high. But that limited ceiling will become evident at some point.

I get what you’re saying. The closer you run to your max heart rate, it becomes exponentially harder to keep that up over a distance.

That said, why should we penalize LeBron for this high-effort approach? Do you realistically think this current Cavs roster could ever, under any circumstances, make or win the Finals? So what is LeBron saving his energy for? Long-term sustainability isn’t really a factor for me if your team as no long-term shot of winning but you maximize their chances in the short term.

What we're doing is comparing performances between the top candidates. One way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize LeBron for producing at an unsustainable level. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize other candidates for playing at a sustainable level just because they have a legitimate chance of competing for a title.

Production matters, and I give LeBron credit for that. But in my mind, another factor to consider for POY is how well the player helps his team compete for a title. In my view, the way LeBron played in the first round falls short in that area. I thought he played much better from a team perspective in game 1 against Toronto, so that's a hopeful sign. I actually do think the Cavs can make the finals, but they're not going to get there unless LeBron starts truly trusting and involving his teammates and stops trying to do everything himself.

I've read this answer about five times now and each time it sounds more ridiculous. Essentially playing better is worse for the team than playing poorly.

[WarriorGM]

I get what you’re saying. The closer you run to your max heart rate, it becomes exponentially harder to keep that up over a distance.

That said, why should we penalize LeBron for this high-effort approach? Do you realistically think this current Cavs roster could ever, under any circumstances, make or win the Finals? So what is LeBron saving his energy for? Long-term sustainability isn’t really a factor for me if your team as no long-term shot of winning but you maximize their chances in the short term.

What we're doing is comparing performances between the top candidates. One way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize LeBron for producing at an unsustainable level. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize other candidates for playing at a sustainable level just because they have a legitimate chance of competing for a title.

Production matters, and I give LeBron credit for that. But in my mind, another factor to consider for POY is how well the player helps his team compete for a title. In my view, the way LeBron played in the first round falls short in that area. I thought he played much better from a team perspective in game 1 against Toronto, so that's a hopeful sign. I actually do think the Cavs can make the finals, but they're not going to get there unless LeBron starts truly trusting and involving his teammates and stops trying to do everything himself.

I've read this answer about five times now and each time it sounds more ridiculous. Essentially playing better is worse for the team than playing poorly.

There is the concept of crowding out. It applies in many areas not just basketball. In economics the government can fund everything but it discourages or takes opportunities away from the private sector ultimately leaving the private sector weaker and dependent on government.

[MisterHibachi]

What we're doing is comparing performances between the top candidates. One way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize LeBron for producing at an unsustainable level. Another way to look at it is that we shouldn't penalize other candidates for playing at a sustainable level just because they have a legitimate chance of competing for a title.

Production matters, and I give LeBron credit for that. But in my mind, another factor to consider for POY is how well the player helps his team compete for a title. In my view, the way LeBron played in the first round falls short in that area. I thought he played much better from a team perspective in game 1 against Toronto, so that's a hopeful sign. I actually do think the Cavs can make the finals, but they're not going to get there unless LeBron starts truly trusting and involving his teammates and stops trying to do everything himself.

I've read this answer about five times now and each time it sounds more ridiculous. Essentially playing better is worse for the team than playing poorly.

There is the concept of crowding out. It applies in many areas not just basketball. In economics the government can fund everything but it discourages or takes opportunities away from the private sector ultimately leaving the private sector weaker and dependent on government.

Sure, but tell me how it applies to LeBron and the Cavs. What opportunities is LeBron taking away from his teammates?

[bondom34]

Yeah that argument makes no sense and its the same one Chuck notes used against other players as well when they've needed to do similar. Lebron could have taken a reduced role and been knocked out round 1 but he didn't and advanced. Its not a matter of reduced role that's causing ineffectiveness among the rest of his team, its reduced talent. They're playing.guys who came off the bench for.the Lakers this year major minutes and TT turned into a pumpkin sometime last offseason.

[Dr Spaceman]

I've read this answer about five times now and each time it sounds more ridiculous. Essentially playing better is worse for the team than playing poorly.

There is the concept of crowding out. It applies in many areas not just basketball. In economics the government can fund everything but it discourages or takes opportunities away from the private sector ultimately leaving the private sector weaker and dependent on government.

Sure, but tell me how it applies to LeBron and the Cavs. What opportunities is LeBron taking away from his teammates?

Um, the opportunities that come with handling the ball?

For most of game 7 against IND the entire offense was taking 10 seconds to make an entry pass to LeBron standing a few feet inside the arc and then he’d take the rest of the shot clock to slowly bully his man underneath the rim or he’d counter with his one-dribble fadeaway over the shoulder.

You can’t just give one guy the ball, tell him to hold it, and then tell every other player to “cut and move”. The ball needs to move as well, and you need ball handlers who create advantages and threaten defenses to get open shot.

LeBron was playing a game that allowed him to maximize his own shot creation while expending the minimum energy. You can argue it was the right things to do, but don’t argue it doesn’t hold his teammates back.

[eminence]

Draymond playing his ass off so far in the Pelicans series.

Curry is still a glitch.

Durant hasn't been doing enough in the playoffs so far to make a serious top 5 run for me yet, will likely have more chances though.

[MisterHibachi]

There is the concept of crowding out. It applies in many areas not just basketball. In economics the government can fund everything but it discourages or takes opportunities away from the private sector ultimately leaving the private sector weaker and dependent on government.

Sure, but tell me how it applies to LeBron and the Cavs. What opportunities is LeBron taking away from his teammates?

Um, the opportunities that come with handling the ball?

For most of game 7 against IND the entire offense was taking 10 seconds to make an entry pass to LeBron standing a few feet inside the arc and then he’d take the rest of the shot clock to slowly bully his man underneath the rim or he’d counter with his one-dribble fadeaway over the shoulder.

You can’t just give one guy the ball, tell him to hold it, and then tell every other player to “cut and move”. The ball needs to move as well, and you need ball handlers who create advantages and threaten defenses to get open shot.

LeBron was playing a game that allowed him to maximize his own shot creation while expending the minimum energy. You can argue it was the right things to do, but don’t argue it doesn’t hold his teammates back.

For the vast majority of the series, the Cavs didn't have a reliable secondary ball handler. Who on the Cavs do you trust as a ball handler outside of LeBron and Hill?

[WarriorGM]

I've read this answer about five times now and each time it sounds more ridiculous. Essentially playing better is worse for the team than playing poorly.

There is the concept of crowding out. It applies in many areas not just basketball. In economics the government can fund everything but it discourages or takes opportunities away from the private sector ultimately leaving the private sector weaker and dependent on government.

Sure, but tell me how it applies to LeBron and the Cavs. What opportunities is LeBron taking away from his teammates?

On the most basic level I get the feeling his teammates go into it with the idea that the Cavs are LeBron's team, not their team and that has subtle effects that ripple throughout everything that they do.

[PaulieWal]

Given how trash Clarkson, Hood etc have been and Hill was out with back spasms who do you want LeBron to give the ball to? Off ball movement doesn't happen in a vacuum. You need creators and playmakers. Whenever Lebron has had that hes willingly paid off the ball more.