Vassilis Spanoulis All-Time Greek League Points Leader & All-Time EuroLeague Assists Leader

Mirotic12 · Post #1 » by **Mirotic12** » Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:01 pm

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/heba/654786/spanoulis-becomes-top-scorer-in-greek-league-history-as-olympiacos-beats-panionios/

Spanoulis becomes top scorer in Greek League history as Olympiacos beats Panionios

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/645852/spanoulis-top-euroleague-time-list-assists-2/

Spanoulis at the top of the EuroLeague All-Time list of assists

What say you now Jeff Van Gundy?

Unbiased hater · Post #2 » by **Unbiased hater** » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:41 pm

Scrub

lavta · Post #3 » by **lavta** » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:14 pm

First record is reported incorrectly. Galis has 12857 points in Greek League. That record probably will stay forever. The other one is correct and well known obviously.

Mirotic12 · Post #4 » by **Mirotic12** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:18 pm

lavta wrote:First record is reported incorrectly. Galis has 12857 points in Greek League. That record probably will stay forever. The other one is correct and well known obviously.

Galis does not have the record. You are talking about the amateur Hellenic championship. He has the record of the amateur Hellenic championship. Spanoulis has the record of the professional Greek league.

The amateur Hellenic championship (1963 to 1986) is the same thing as the Greek 2nd division today. So no, those are actually two different records, and Spanoulis absolutely has that record officially.

The league's official website even confirms that:

http://esake.gr/el/7E91890A

There is another record, which some media count (the leagues and federations do not), but some of the sports media counts it:

That record counts games from the whole history of the Greek first league (1986 to now), even when it was an amateur league. Galis, does not have that record either. He is the second scorer behind Angelos Koronios.

1. Angelos Koronios - 7.080
2. Nikos Galis - 6.549

So even in that unofficial record, which some media count, Galis does not have the record. What record he has is of the old Panhellenic championship, which had no top-tier level division in it (before the two professional leagues were even created). So saying Galis has that record is basically like saying an AFL or ABA record should count as an NBA or NFL record, for an American analogy (it doesn't).

Anyway you count it, the record holder in Greece's first league is either Koronios or Spanoulis, and not Galis. Galis was the leader in a different league, which today would not be considered to have the same level of competition.

And when we talk about official stats, it's what FIBA deems official. FIBA officially recognized stats of Greek league since 1992. Because there was no oversight, fact checking, or rules on how stats were kept before that.

Unbiased hater · Post #5 » by **Unbiased hater** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:17 pm

How it dont have top tier level division ? If there isn't higher tier level in that time its top tier .

lambchop · Post #6 » by **lambchop** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:03 pm

dude is my favorite euroleague player. Probably ends up in the hall of fame due his final four mvps and the world championship gold medal where they beat bron, melo, wade, cp3, bosh so legit dudes in the semis

lavta · Post #7 » by **lavta** » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:08 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:.

No it's not. This is the manipulation of factuality in the name of bias. That's like saying because TBL's name was changed to BSL and instead the TB2L's name became TBL, all the players that played in the TBL before it was named to BSL, was actually 2nd division players. They weren't. This situation is like that, not ABA/NBA where the structures of the leagues are completely different as well as the governing body of those leagues.

To clarify better, you're right in that, with the post-1986 structure of Greek basketball leagues, Vassilis Spanoulis has the record. But the title says "All-Time Greek League Points Leader" that's wrong. Throughout all the first divison Greek basketball leagues history, no matter the league & federation structure, just looking at the highest level of local league competition, Galis has the record. "All-Time Greek League Points Leader" is Galis. He has 12k points in just regular season, nobody is beating that record.

FIBA is also not running the Greek Leagues itself, so I don't care about what they claim as official or not.

That's exactly it:

Unbiased hater wrote:How it dont have top tier level division ? If there isn't higher tier level in that time its top tier .

Anyway congrats to V-Span on beating any post-1986 league structure record. An excellent achievement that exemplifies his excellent volume scoring & longevity. But Galis will stay as the "All-time Greek League Points Leader" for quite some time, to understate things.

Mirotic12 · Post #8 » by **Mirotic12** » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:52 pm

As far as I know, there is only one basketball league in all of Europe (Turkish Super League) that counts stats from federation games in their leagues. So no, Galis does not have that record. Spanoulis does.

Every single league in Europe except the one in Turkey counts it that way. The Turkish league doesn't because it's only controlled by their federation.

But every other league, France, Spain, Israel, Greece, Germany, Lithuania, Croatia, Serbia, Adriatic, United, Belgium, etc. federation games don't count.

So why would Galis be different from all those other leagues? It isn't. All the leagues recognize professional league stats, not amateur stats from federation games. That's just a fact, and there is no such exemption created just for Galis.

So in your personal opinion, Galis has that record, but in actual fact and in the actual official record, he does not (Spanoulis does). It's fine if you want to personally say Galis has the record, but to imply he officially has it, is not correct, because officially he does not. And again, every other league in Europe is the same...they have a lead scorer of the federation (Galis), and a lead scorer of their professional league (Spanoulis). All the leagues record it like that, and none of them combine the stats.

LuDux1 · Post #9 » by **LuDux1** » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:25 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:As far as I know, there is only one basketball league in all of Europe (Turkish Super League) that counts stats from federation games in their leagues. So no, Galis does not have that record. Spanoulis does.

Every single league in Europe except the one in Turkey counts it that way. The Turkish league doesn't because it's only controlled by their federation.

But every other league, France, Spain, Israel, Greece, Germany, Lithuania, Croatia, Serbia, Adriatic, United, Belgium, etc. federation games don't count.

How many of them have stats from 80s and before?

Mirotic12 · Post #10 » by **Mirotic12** » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:51 pm

LuDux1 wrote:How many of them have stats from 80s and before?

It varies. It's partly based on when they actually formed a league and association system, versus just having a federation tournament, and also when they actually became professional leagues, versus just being amateurs.

For the major domestic leagues,

1977 for Italian League
1991 for Spanish League
1986 for Greek League
1987 for French League
1989 for Israeli League
1998 for German League
2001 for Adriatic League
2009 for VTB United League

For European leagues, it is

1991 (for FIBA EuroLeague, and for the old leagues like FIBA Saporta Cup and FIBA Korac Cup)
2000 (for EuroLeague Basketball)

2002 for EuroCup
2016 for Basketball Champions League (BCL)

So actually, Greek League counts back as by far one of the oldest. But the only one that counts all 80s stats is Italian League. But that makes sense, because it was always the most advanced and important national league up until more recent years. So it makes sense, because it would have been more regulated and official at an earlier time.

It's a little bit different for EuroLeague, as FIBA doesn't count anything from amateur time. So before 1991 none of the stats are official, because it was considered amateur. It's actually even the same with EuroBasket Olympics, and World Cup, the stats from before 1991 EuroBasket, before 1992 Olympics, and before 1994 World Cup are not official, because they are classed as "amateur", while stats from tournaments since are classed as "professional". But in case of the national team tournaments, they recognize the stats records from before 1991, so that's how guys like Galis and Schmidt didn't lose any of their stats.

But for the club competition, they only counted 1991 and after. because they deemed everything before 1991 to be amateur club competition. It really doesn't matter though, because I saw the stats records for FIBA EuroLeague once somewhere from 1958 to 2001, and if you took those and even combined it with current EuroLeague (some guys played both), the overall stats leaders would still be the same. Navarro would still lead in points and threes, Reyes in rebounds, Diamantidis in steals and assists...Vazquez in blocks, especially since they were not even counting assists until sometime in 70s and blocks and steals until sometime in 80s, and 3 point line came around 84 I think.

The points leaders for EuroLeague, since 1958, it would be,

Navarro
Spanoulis
Galis

So really it doesn't affect any of the records in case of EuroLeague.

Like with Greek League, before it was a professional association with different divisions, it had things like regional city competitions organized in federation tournaments. So of course, logically, you can't count those stats to be credited to the same thing as a professional league run by an association.

baldur · Post #11 » by **baldur** » Wed May 2, 2018 1:44 pm

lambchop wrote:dude is my favorite euroleague player. Probably ends up in the hall of fame due his final four mvps and the world championship gold medal where they beat bron, melo, wade, cp3, bosh so legit dudes in the semis

It was silver, in the final Spain destroyed greece actually.

KGtabake · Post #12 » by **KGtabake** » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:30 pm

Mirotic12 wrote:The amateur Hellenic championship (1963 to 1986) is the same thing as the Greek 2nd division today.

All great Greek clubs played in the Hellenic championship. It's the same thing, they only changed the name.
Greek 2nd division doesn't have any of the great Greek clubs.
And i could argue that the Hellenic championship back then had bigger competition than the Greek League today where only 2 teams are contending.

Mirotic12 · Post #13 » by **Mirotic12** » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:29 pm

KGtabake wrote:
Mirotic12 wrote:The amateur Hellenic championship (1963 to 1986) is the same thing as the Greek 2nd division today.

All great Greek clubs played in the Hellenic championship. It's the same thing, they only changed the name.
Greek 2nd division doesn't have any of the great Greek clubs.
And i could argue that the Hellenic championship back then had bigger competition than the Greek League today where only 2 teams are contending.

The old Hellenic Championship was amateur. Players didn't even have to be paid and most were not. Even the biggest stars had full time regular jobs. Today,even Greek 2nd division is fully professional in paying all players a living wage.

So no, not at all the same thing.

You could count from when the first division began in 1986, but that's all. Even then, Greek league didn't have to pay players until 1992, when it actually became professional in those terms that players had to be paid and be able to live on it. Also, the league didn't even achieve professional status in all parameters until 2000. So again, no, not at all the same thing in those earlier years.

And it had "bigger competition back then"...that was during the time when Aris won 80 straight games in Greek league. Not sure how that was bigger competition when one team won 80 games in a row.....it was a one team league then.