Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[shaolinmilk]

This is how I see it. Michael Jordan definitely held the GOAT title for a while. Once Lebron defeated that 73-9 Warriors, talks of him over Jordan started generating more steam. As of now, I think it's 1A and 1B, but I feel a little bias towards Jordan because he is legit the most iconic basketball player of all time. He transcended the game and that in itself is GOAT material. However when I look at things more objectively, it's hard to argue that Lebron isn't the GOAT in terms of the overall package. If talks like this is already happening while he's still in the league, I can only imagine it once all is said and done. With that said, Jordan will always be the most iconic basketball player of all time and will still be #1 in many people's mind 20 years from now and I do not have one problem with that at all.

[pwrshft99]

Statistics will be debated until the end of time, the reason I take MJ over LBJ is Jordan was a killer. He wanted the win, every single time, at any cost. LeBron seems more content with an L every now and then.

The difference comes from how the where brought up. At 15 LeBron was already being called the chosen one and he had millions of people following him and telling him he was great. Jordan at around the same age was being told he wasnt good enough for varsity. Going back further, MJ grew up with an older brother that tormented on the court, beating and embarrassing him for years. Those two things were the fuel the ignited MJs entire career. LeBron has never had anyone telling him "your not ****, sit down". I think that is really the difference between the two.

[shaolinmilk]

He's right. When you consider the talent and coaching MJ had around him, as well as the significantly weaker opposition in the Finals, I think it's clear the say LeBron has definitely surpassed MJ in stats as well as overall standing.

How the **** has this comment +20?!

MJ weaker opposition in the finals? Are you kidding me?
What about the paths he had to go through? The East that have had Lebron is waaaaaay weaker than the ones MJ had to suffer. FFS

If LJ had done the same during the years BUT in the West conference, I would say yes, but come on man, the East has been ridiculous during the years. Only Boston Celtics with Allen was a real contender and he couldn't win them

LBJ definitely played against more HOF type players because obviously the league is much deeper now than it was back then. The thing is... there's a reason all of these players rather go play in the West than stay in the East to play against a LBJ team. People always say "ohh the West is so strong..." the thing is... the usual 3-4 teams always comes out on top in the West and no matter how strong the other West teams are, they never make it... and LBJ has beaten some of these teams that have came out on top in the "Super Strong West".

[papz187]

Whoever says the league was deeper back then needs their brain checked. So many players back then would not make it in today's league. Only the superstars back then would make it today. If you can't see that, then there's no point of arguing.

Individual talent its today because the players are just more versatile, the game is more global, and it's been the evolution of basketball where big men are shooters now, the rules favor more offense than back then, etc

When I said the league was deeper back then I meant team wise. There wasn't an extremely top heavy team back then like GS now, but you had teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, Heat later in the 90s, that were true threats. Even had young talented teams like Charolette as well. The East is not as deep as it used to be.

The West has always been deep. Phoenix, Portland, Utah, Seattle, Houston, San Antonio, etc back then all had strong squads.

Even though there seems to be more individual talent now, the teams are just not as competitive, especially in today's Eastern Conference.

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[Greatness]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

[chitownsports4ever]

Whoever says the league was deeper back then needs their brain checked. So many players back then would not make it in today's league. Only the superstars back then would make it today. If you can't see that, then there's no point of arguing.

Individual talent its today because the players are just more versatile, the game is more global, and it's been the evolution of basketball where big men are shooters now, the rules favor more offense than back then, etc

When I said the league was deeper back then I meant team wise. There wasn't an extremely top heavy team back then like GS now, but you had teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, Heat later in the 90s, that were true threats. Even had young talented teams like Charolette as well. The East is not as deep as it used to be.

The West has always been deep. Phoenix, Portland, Utah, Seattle, Houston, San Antonio, etc back then all had strong squads.

Even though there seems to be more individual talent now, the teams are just not as competitive, especially in today's Eastern Conference.

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It was deeper back then and the only people who argue it are people who didnt watch it because if the ydid they would know ist a huge difference between the young raw 19-20 year olds sitting on the end of these benches in todays games and the grown ass 4 year college players who were all Americans sitting on the bench back in the 80's and 90s .

That you have people that think a player like Walt Williams wouldn't push a RJ Hunter or Markel Brown right off the Rockets bench is ridiculous.

[LivingLegend]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

bazinga!

[dabonett]

it’s only debatable if you are under 35 years old. For the others is a nice joke or blind worship and a sad life

[chitownsports4ever]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

The east had had 2 teams that had won 4 of the last 6 nba titles and a 3rd team that would 2 of the next 4 but hey it wasnt really that strong .

Im not even going to get into that Bucks team with Cummings.Pierce,Moncrief,and Pressey lol @ people thinking basketball just suddenly got good players or teams

[mplsfonz23]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

Then you should also point out he only played 15 games that year due to a broken foot.
And we won't pretent the east is better, but don't forget there were only 11 teams in the east at the time, so somebody had to make it in for the 8th spot. It was best out of 5 back then.
But to put this in context, the Blazers, Kings and Spurs all had losing records and made the playoffs and they had 12 teams.
So it wasn't like the west was stacked with powerhouses.
Just the facts.

[a8bil]

I don't think the younguns realize how dominant Jordan was during his core years before he went off to play baseball. And, he did it while playing winning basketball.

[Heej]

MJ was more consistent. And one could say he had a higher peak (if you hone in one season). LeBron was slightly less consistent (or at least appeared that way because his bad games he didn't shoot alot while MJs bad games he shot too much), but his Apex was higher than MJs when you zoom in on his maximum output for a game or a quarter. MJ never put together a masterpiece 2 way stretch of games like LeBron did from Games 5-7 in the 2013 and 2016 Finals, or a 2 way tour de force like 2013 Finals Game 6 4th Quarter when adjusted for competition. That was pretty much the highest level of basketball ever achieved. But MJs 91 regular season surpasses LeBron's best regular season imo. The 91 playoff run as a whole is likely the best from end to end. But the 2016 Finals is the greatest series ever submitted by a player, especially the stretch I just mentioned.

When both their shots were on in a given game, Lebron straight up just reached a higher level. He's the one guy that was called literally unguardable when his shot was on. It's why even now as a player past his athletic prime his better shooting fully rounds out his jack of all trades game into a master of all trades and he can somehow surpass the level of play he achieved as a 27-29 year old.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me. LeBron would win every single finals series MJ played in. MJ would have won in 2011 but he would have lost in 2016. Who's to say what you value? Jordan had a higher peak, but when you zoom in further Lebron very clearly has a higher apex. Maybe Jordan sustained his peak play better than LeBron because he was consistent from start to finish, but Lebron is the only player I've seen that's guaranteed to be better by the end of a series. He's the greatest elimination Game, must-win game, and Game 7 player to ever walk the earth, so it's clear LeBron can summon apex play and rise to occasion whenever he's called upon to do so.

There's reasons to call both GOAT. MJ could give you a better games 1-4 of a series and 98% as good Games 5-7 and to some they'll take that production end to end in a series. Bron will take the first few games to feel out the opponent, then turn on the afterburners to close out the series once he's fully formulated his plan of attack and digested all of their offensive and defensive strategies allowing him to reach unmatched levels of 2 way dominance throughout Games 5-7 when his back is against the wall.

Who do you want on your team? The guy that will rip your opponent's heart out and stomp on their neck as early and as often as possible? Or the guy who will rope-a-dope them for the first few scuffles and make them show all the cards they have in their hand, then tap into something within himself and ascend to another plane of basketball existence when his back is against the wall and the team needs him most? It all comes down to preference. The MJ generation will go with the first option because the killer instinct is what they lionize. The LeBron generation will go with the second option because the way he always pulls through when his back is against the wall and the team needs him most is what we lionize. Both are breathtaking tbh.

[OdomFan]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

You should also point out that that took place in the 80s which was still Bird and Magics era. Especially in only MJ's second season. If you point that out you might as well hold it against Lebron for missing the playoffs in his 2nd season.

See how foolish it sounds? You really should. Anyway people are too hung up on Warriors winning 73 games. Yes it's great and historic but it doesn't mean those Warriors would do the samething if you insert them in any other era of NBA history.

I'd love to see that historic Warrior team win 55 games let alone 73 against those 90s or early 2000 Teams. Heck I'd like to see them take on the 80s squads too and see what happens.

Would love to see Lebrons team try and dominate Shaq and Pennys Magic, Ewings Knicks, The Bad Boy Pistons, Zo and LJ's Hornets and so the rest of those squads to. Sorry but no it would not be a cake walk like some of ya'll might think it would. Not even close.

[TheGOATRises007]

MJ was more consistent. And one could say he had a higher peak (if you hone in one season). LeBron was slightly less consistent (or at least appeared that way because his bad games he didn't shoot alot while MJs bad games he shot too much), but his Apex was higher than MJs when you zoom in on his maximum output for a game or a quarter. MJ never put together a masterpiece 2 way stretch of games like LeBron did from Games 5-7 in the 2013 and 2016 Finals, or a 2 way tour de force like 2013 Finals Game 6 4th Quarter when adjusted for competition. That was pretty much the highest level of basketball ever achieved. But MJs 91 regular season surpasses LeBron's best regular season imo. The 91 playoff run as a whole is likely the best from end to end. But the 2016 Finals is the greatest series ever submitted by a player, especially the stretch I just mentioned.

When both their shots were on in a given game, Lebron straight up just reached a higher level. He's the one guy that was called literally unguardable when his shot was on. It's why even now as a player past his athletic prime his better shooting fully rounds out his jack of all trades game into a master of all trades and he can somehow surpass the level of play he achieved as a 27-29 year old.

Ultimately, it comes down to this for me. LeBron would win every single finals series MJ played in. MJ would have won in 2011 but he would have lost in 2016. Who's to say what you value? Jordan had a higher peak, but when you zoom in further Lebron very clearly has a higher apex. Maybe Jordan sustained his peak play better than LeBron because he was consistent from start to finish, but Lebron is the only player I've seen that's guaranteed to be better by the end of a series. He's the greatest elimination Game, must-win game, and Game 7 player to ever walk the earth, so it's clear LeBron can summon apex play and rise to occasion whenever he's called upon to do so.

There's reasons to call both GOAT. MJ could give you a better games 1-4 of a series and 98% as good Games 5-7 and to some they'll take that production end to end in a series. Bron will take the first few games to feel out the opponent, then turn on the afterburners to close out the series once he's fully formulated his plan of attack and digested all of their offensive and defensive strategies allowing him to reach unmatched levels of 2 way dominance throughout Games 5-7 when his back is against the wall.

Who do you want on your team? The guy that will rip your opponent's heart out and stomp on their neck as early and as often as possible? Or the guy who will rope-a-dope them for the first few scuffles and make them show all the cards they have in their hand, then tap into something within himself and ascend to another plane of basketball existence when his back is against the wall and the team needs him most? It all comes down to preference. The MJ generation will go with the first option because the killer instinct is what they lionize. The LeBron generation will go with the second option because the way he always pulls through when his back is against the wall and the team needs him most is what we lionize. Both are breathtaking tbh.

Nice post. Good to read.

Specifically the last paragraph. Very true of their differences in character.

[yoyoboy]

I just want to point out that the Bulls made the playoffs in Jordan's 2nd year with a 30-52 record. So let's not pretend the east was a lot better back then because it wasn't.

You should also point out that that took place in the 80s which was still Bird and Magics era. Especially in only MJ's second season. If you point that out you might as well hold it against Lebron for missing the playoffs in his 2nd season.

See how foolish it sounds? You really should. Anyway people are too hung up on Warriors winning 73 games. Yes it's great and historic but it doesn't mean those Warriors would do the samething if you insert them in any other era of NBA history.

I'd love to see that historic Warrior team win 55 games let alone 73 against those 90s or early 2000 Teams. Heck I'd like to see them take on the 80s squads too and see what happens.

Would love to see Lebrons team try and dominate Shaq and Pennys Magic, Ewings Knicks, The Bad Boy Pistons, Zo and LJ's Hornets and so the rest of those squads to. Sorry but no it would not be a cake walk like some of ya'll might think it would. Not even close.

This is a poor take. I could just as easily say I'd like to see Jordan go up against Kawhi Leonard, Andre Iguodola, Draymond Green, Bruce Bowen, Jimmy Butler, and Paul George (earlier in his career) instead of being defended by Jeff Hornacek, Craig Ehlo, and Danny Ainge.

[OdomFan]

If MJ can put up the numbers he put up at 38-40 against that eras talent then he can surely get his against those guys you named. None of them would even put a dent in his usual numbers.

You're naming individual players while I'm praising full teams that had solid overall rosters that would in fact very well be capable of sending Bron or Currys teams home in 5 or 6 games of a best of 7.

[JonFromVA]

There's reasons to call both GOAT. MJ could give you a better games 1-4 of a series and 98% as good Games 5-7 and to some they'll take that production end to end in a series. Bron will take the first few games to feel out the opponent, then turn on the afterburners to close out the series once he's fully formulated his plan of attack and digested all of their offensive and defensive strategies allowing him to reach unmatched levels of 2 way dominance throughout Games 5-7 when his back is against the wall.

To some extent you're just describing a difference in eras. In Jordan's day it was very easy for him to dominate his man 1v1 and unfortunately ISO-play infected the league much due to his success at it. In LeBron's era the pack the paint and semi-zone defenses make it very different. LeBron has adopted a read & react approach that essentially means the defense dictates what he'll do. He "imposes his will" within that framework.

Either player might have taken a different approach if they'd played in the other era - or struggled in ways if they didn't.

We can't know.

What we do know is that Kobe had an MJ-like size and skill-set, and that didn't always serve him in this era because he'd often pile more on his own plate than he could handle and not trust his teammates as much as he should.

The more talent around any of these guys, and the easier it is for them to do their job, because it helps keep the defense honest. Afterall, MJ may have dropped 60pts on the Celtics in a playoff game ... but it was a loss. At the time, it sure didn't look like ISO-style could dominate.

[HurricaneKid]

If MJ can put up the numbers he put up at 38-40 against that eras talent then he can surely get his against those guys you named. None of them would even put a dent in his usual numbers.

You're naming individual players while I'm praising full teams that had solid overall rosters that would in fact very well be capable of sending Bron or Currys teams home in 5 or 6 games of a best of 7.

You mean his .468 and .491 TS%??

When he couldn't lead his team to the playoffs?

Why would a defender need to put a dent in his numbers when he took a wrecking ball to them himself?

[OdomFan]

20.0 points per game, 1.5 steals, 3.8 assists isn't bad at all for a guy at 39-40 years old in his final season. Lebron wouldn't have a high team share or make the playoffs with that Wizards team either considering who they had.

Tyronn Lue who refused to listen, Brendan Haywood before he developed into a solid big in later. Kwame Brown, etc. The only quality guy they had was Rip Hamilton and they foolishly let him slip away tro Detroit exchange for Stackhouse to try and win now. Big mistake.

[Heej]

There's reasons to call both GOAT. MJ could give you a better games 1-4 of a series and 98% as good Games 5-7 and to some they'll take that production end to end in a series. Bron will take the first few games to feel out the opponent, then turn on the afterburners to close out the series once he's fully formulated his plan of attack and digested all of their offensive and defensive strategies allowing him to reach unmatched levels of 2 way dominance throughout Games 5-7 when his back is against the wall.

To some extent you're just describing a difference in eras. In Jordan's day it was very easy for him to dominate his man 1v1 and unfortunately ISO-play infected the league much due to his success at it. In LeBron's era the pack the paint and semi-zone defenses make it very different. LeBron has adopted a read & react approach that essentially means the defense dictates what he'll do. He "imposes his will" within that framework.

Either player might have taken a different approach if they'd played in the other era - or struggled in ways if they didn't.

We can't know.

What we do know is that Kobe had an MJ-like size and skill-set, and that didn't always serve him in this era because he'd often pile more on his own plate than he could handle and not trust his teammates as much as he should.

The more talent around any of these guys, and the easier it is for them to do their job, because it helps keep the defense honest. Afterall, MJ may have dropped 60pts on the Celtics in a playoff game ... but it was a loss. At the time, it sure didn't look like ISO-style could dominate.

Fair point, but deep down I truly do believe it comes down to a difference in character. MJ wanted to rip your heart out and went with full ferocity and could pull out his strongest play at will to crush his opponents. LeBron wants to figure you out and seemingly only summons his max output and will to dominate when it's the only option left.

The difference in rules certainly contributed, but I think MJs scoring focused dominance suited the 90s while LBJs all around dominance suits the modern era. I'll even venture as far to say that MJ > LBJ playing in 90s rules and vice versa, but there's something to be said about how LBJs approach would change and the 90s having less guys who can handle him along with 90s perimeter stars having less help responsibilities so more energy could be conserved.