Doc will be back next season

[Ranma]

Meanwhile, we're still stuck with Doc. Very disheartening to see some teams actually trying to upgrade their coaching while the Clippers stay satisfied with mediocrity at best.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that Kokoskov would be an improvement over Doc for our current situation, though I wouldn't necessarily be against having him be our head coach. A more ideal situation would be having Budenholzer as the head coach and Kokoskov as one of his assistant coaches.

Kokoskov's track record in developing players is a perfect fit for a young Suns team with plenty of them on its roster. Having the worst record in the league provides them with low expectations and the best odds at getting an impact player in the upcoming draft.

I've argued that the Clippers could use more talent development experts on their staff, so Kokoskov would be a big boost in that regard, but he's an unproven NBA head coach and the organization wants to compete in the here and now while working to build up the roster over time.

[MartinToVaught]

I don't see why Kokoskov couldn't "win in the here and now." What he pulled off at Eurobasket with an underdog Slovenia team was nothing short of incredible. It easily outclasses anything Doc has accomplished without the most stacked roster in the NBA.

We don't need a "proven NBA coach" - that mandate often causes teams to settle for an uninspiring retread. We need a great coach. Brad Stevens wasn't a "proven NBA coach" when the Celtics hired him, and it's worked out very well for them.

[og15]

Donovan is a hell of a coach though, the Thunder's offensive woes are not all his fault, but mostly the players he has to work with imo. He's done some amazing adjustments in playoff series the past couple of years and his defensive strategy is always sound. Westbrook's excessively long leash is more of a front office problem, the way I see it, Scott Brooks had the same problem.

That was actually tongue in cheek, sorry, didn't make that clear. I don't actually think Donovan is a bad coach, and I think fans underrate the value of consistency. He's the kind of coach I don't see a need to move unless I believe I'm bringing in some absolute superstar coach. There are rumblings from OKC that he did try to install more of a system but Westbrook wasn't very amenable and just did whatever he wanted anyways.

I think while there is a responsibility on Westbrook's side too, actually the largest responsibility, he also needs a coach that is going to be tough and make him change (reasonably, just adjust really), but that coach needs the full backing and assurance of the front office so that they aren't in fear of getting fired.

[Ranma]

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[QRich3]

Donovan is a hell of a coach though, the Thunder's offensive woes are not all his fault, but mostly the players he has to work with imo. He's done some amazing adjustments in playoff series the past couple of years and his defensive strategy is always sound. Westbrook's excessively long leash is more of a front office problem, the way I see it, Scott Brooks had the same problem.

That was actually tongue in cheek, sorry, didn't make that clear. I don't actually think Donovan is a bad coach, and I think fans underrate the value of consistency. He's the kind of coach I don't see a need to move unless I believe I'm bringing in some absolute superstar coach. There are rumblings from OKC that he did try to install more of a system but Westbrook wasn't very amenable and just did whatever he wanted anyways.

I think while there is a responsibility on Westbrook's side too, actually the largest responsibility, he also needs a coach that is going to be tough and make him change (reasonably, just adjust really), but that coach needs the full backing and assurance of the front office so that they aren't in fear of getting fired.

Yeah I wasn't sure cause there's a lot of people who treat him as some sort of clueless figurehead, when he's a very good strategist, but should've imagined you already know that

But yeah, it's exactly as you say, Westbrook definitely needs a coach that calls his sh*t out, but any coach that's gonna try to do that needs the work security to do it without the fear of Westbrook not reacting well. And I don't think neither Brooks nor Donovan ever had that.

[TucsonClip]

Donovan is a hell of a coach though, the Thunder's offensive woes are not all his fault, but mostly the players he has to work with imo. He's done some amazing adjustments in playoff series the past couple of years and his defensive strategy is always sound. Westbrook's excessively long leash is more of a front office problem, the way I see it, Scott Brooks had the same problem.

Agreed. Donovan was running some pretty good sets all season, and their defense was elite with Roberson. They ran fewer and fewer of those sets in the playoffs.

[Quake Griffin]

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/keyon-dooling-the-ghost


Doc Related

[MartinToVaught]

Crap like this is why my signature hasn't changed:

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It's glaringly obvious that changes need to be made for the Clippers to get back to winning games, but Doc is going to stick with the worst player in basketball right now (Bradley) due to stubbornness and favoritism. It's the exact same situation as Austin, Jamal, washed-up Pierce, etc. No other coach does this.

[esqtvd]

the important thing is minutes distribution

Avery gets less, Bev gets more, Ty gets some


bad coaching is also rolling out random combinations with no practice together and only hope and a prayer it'll work

any mook off the street could do that

[Ranma]

Below is why I think Doc is one of the most overrated coaches in the NBA. I've made no bones about the fact that I respect coaches who actually and continually teach their players over the motivators and ego managers. It's not like I don't value those latter skills, but NBA players nowadays tend not to be fundamental given their lack of developing before coming into the league, which further places greater emphasis on skills and system development to me.

In any case, it's funny how Doc is always late to the party on things that should be common sense. If it's not the value of draft picks or the importance of sound rotation management, it's the practicality of practice. It's no coincidence that the team has yet to achieve being ranked top-5 in both offense and defense and that his laxness of habitual practice happened under his watch when he was secure in his gig as coach and president of basketball operations. The report of him spending company time golfing and leaving it to his star players to develop on their own during the days of Lob City certainly doesn't paint a picture of a guy committed to bringing the Clippers over the hump as he initially promised upon his hiring.

Of course, the apologists will argue that new faces on the roster necessitate the need for more practice while missing the point that "more" being better than practically none is about as low a bar that can be crossed. Even Gortat knows the importance of staying sharp and honing skills. Plus, there's something to be said for building team chemistry instead of relying on your big guns to always carry the burden of winning games. Not to mention that developing young players, particularly rookies, can not only help down the not-too-distant road but also in the now.

Like I've said, it's common knowledge but Doc again seems oblivious to such things and only arrives at such conclusions only after repeatedly failing with his bravado and ill-conceived approaches. When you rely too much on your star players, they tend to break down earlier, especially during a long season and a more grueling postseason. Even when he's been now given the depth that has eluded him before, he still squanders the opportunity to make the most of it. Giving up multiple 20-point leads during games and blowing 3-1 playoff series leads (plural) don't happen by accident.

Furthermore, while there is some logic to the hands-off approach to letting offensive players shoot themselves out of slumps, it tends to come at the detriment of the team, especially when you play favorites with inefficient players like Jamal Crawford, Austin Rivers, Byron Mullens, Antawn Jamison, over-the-hill Paul Pierce, et al.

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Andrew Greif, Los Angeles Times (12/31/18)

When the Clippers' roster featured veterans Blake Griffin, Chris Paul and DeAndre Jordan, they often went weeks without practicing.

With those three gone and a cast of new faces in their place this season, practices are no longer an afterthought but a necessity.

“Practice,” coach Doc Rivers said, “has been very important for us.”

Practices, said center Marcin Gortat, are an "opportunity for you just to be in shape, get a lift, get your shots, get a little sweat, refresh our schemes and refresh our offense.

“It’s opportunity to just stay sharp.”

The Key to Clippers Success Has Been Practice, But Not Too Much of It

[esqtvd]

Of course, the apologists will argue that new faces on the roster necessitate the need for more practice while missing the point that "more" being better than practically none is about as low a bar that can be crossed.

Fatigue has been the biggest factor in our losses, not lack of practice. We have won most of our close games.

The Doc attackers should stick with retweets and opinions on uniforms and logos. Or at least they should read the WHOLE article. Coach Rivers is quite aware of the whole picture. The NBA is not college.

“When we didn’t have practice for that stretch, we struggled because we didn’t have that time to teach,” Rivers said. “This is a new team. It’s not just because there are a lot of new guys; this team has not been together that long, so everything is new for the group, not just the young guys.”

Seven of the Clippers’ next nine games are at home, but Rivers won’t fill that time in Los Angeles with workouts to make up for lost time.

“You’ve still got to temper your practice,” he said. “You have so many games you’ve got to be careful with your practice, and I think there are times we’ve done that well. And I think there are times where I have not done that well and I’ve gone too hard. I think I saw that in games, too.”

A weeklong training camp in Hawaii in September and the two weeks of preseason in Los Angeles that followed familiarized players and coaches with one another, but by mid-November the Clippers began a monthlong stretch where the team didn’t play consecutive games in the same arena. A shoot-around was often held the morning of a game, but the near-constant travel left the team with few opportunities to run through the skeleton of their various offensive and defensive schemes or to go over game-planning details in depth on the court, forward Tobias Harris said.

[Galloisdaman]

Of course, the apologists will argue that new faces on the roster necessitate the need for more practice while missing the point that "more" being better than practically none is about as low a bar that can be crossed.

Fatigue has been the biggest factor in our losses, not lack of practice. We have won most of our close games.

The Doc attackers should stick with retweets and opinions on uniforms and logos. Or at least they should read the WHOLE article. Coach Rivers is quite aware of the whole picture. The NBA is not college.

“When we didn’t have practice for that stretch, we struggled because we didn’t have that time to teach,” Rivers said. “This is a new team. It’s not just because there are a lot of new guys; this team has not been together that long, so everything is new for the group, not just the young guys.”

Seven of the Clippers’ next nine games are at home, but Rivers won’t fill that time in Los Angeles with workouts to make up for lost time.

“You’ve still got to temper your practice,” he said. “You have so many games you’ve got to be careful with your practice, and I think there are times we’ve done that well. And I think there are times where I have not done that well and I’ve gone too hard. I think I saw that in games, too.”

A weeklong training camp in Hawaii in September and the two weeks of preseason in Los Angeles that followed familiarized players and coaches with one another, but by mid-November the Clippers began a monthlong stretch where the team didn’t play consecutive games in the same arena. A shoot-around was often held the morning of a game, but the near-constant travel left the team with few opportunities to run through the skeleton of their various offensive and defensive schemes or to go over game-planning details in depth on the court, forward Tobias Harris said.

I agree fatigue played a legit role in some losses. So did illness. Those two things will beat most teams.

[esqtvd]

I agree fatigue played a legit role in some losses. So did illness. Those two things will beat most teams.

Yes, as a matter of fact we lost all four games when Lou was out. He's as valuable to us as most teams' superstar. We're 21-11 with Lou, PFG.

[Ranma]

I agree fatigue played a legit role in some losses. So did illness. Those two things will beat most teams.

As usual Doc apologists continue to miss the point despite having it repeated to them. What does overly relying on star players lead to? Maybe fatigue, you think? What is the point of depth? To alleviate the risk of fatigue and loss of man-games due to health. Like Doc, common sense seems to escape his apologists.

Doc as been guilty of pushing his starters in the postseason to the point of exhaustion, which not coincidentally has led to him being the only coach in NBA history to blow 3-1 playoff series leads. Plural meaning more than one. Furthermore, other teams have to deal with travel issues and practically any other excuse you can come up with. The Clippers this year have actually had good health so far this season relative to other teams and we've even benefited greatly from competing against the opposition without their star players on many occasions including tonight. Yeah, so that tired old chestnut of an excuse has no legitimacy.

I'm not primarily directing this at you, Galloisdaman, but your stance in trying to see both sides of the argument without applying logic or critical thinking is about as misguided as the "fair and balanced" approach from Faux News and CNN in giving the crazies and idiocracy a platform to infect intelligent sports discussion.

[Ranma]

I forgot to mention, how come all of a sudden Doc thinks it's important to teach this season or whatever false soundbite he's throwing out there, but apparently that was not the case during the Lob City days where the team went 3 weeks without practicing with regularity? Saying something after the fact does not mean squat if you haven't shown a track record of putting it into practice (pun intended).

Again, I've noted as much previously but the ADHD from the peanut gallery keeps glossing over that and many other points focusing its narrow view on a singular point without taking in the big picture, which I've pointed out as such many times now.

[Galloisdaman]

I agree fatigue played a legit role in some losses. So did illness. Those two things will beat most teams.

As usual Doc apologists continue to miss the point despite having it repeated to them. What does overly relying on star players lead to? Maybe fatigue, you think? What is the point of depth? To alleviate the risk of fatigue and loss of man-games due to health. Like Doc, common sense seems to escape his apologists.

Doc as been guilty of pushing his starters in the postseason to the point of exhaustion, which not coincidentally has led to him being the only coach in NBA history to blow 3-1 playoff series leads. Plural meaning more than one. Furthermore, other teams have to deal with travel issues and practically any other excuse you can come up with. The Clippers this year have actually had good health so far this season relative to other teams and we've even benefited greatly from competing against the opposition without their star players on many occasions including tonight. Yeah, so that tired old chestnut of an excuse has no legitimacy.

I'm not primarily directing this at you, Galloisdaman, but your stance in trying to see both sides of the argument without applying logic or critical thinking is about as misguided as the "fair and balanced" approach from Faux News and CNN in giving the crazies and idiocracy a platform to infect intelligent sports discussion.

I'm just giving my opinion based on my own personal game experiences. I have played some games where I was sick or so tired I felt like my feet were in sand. I actually do not even know how pro teams play at their top level so often. I would be exhausted by the travel on some game nights. I'm only speaking about that specifically. I'm not speaking about how Doc played guys in prior years. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

[Ranma]

I'm just giving my opinion based on my own personal game experiences. I have played some games where I was sick or so tired I felt like my feet were in sand. I actually do not even know how pro teams play at their top level so often. I would be exhausted by the travel on some game nights. I'm only speaking about that specifically. I'm not speaking about how Doc played guys in prior years. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

Like I said, I'm not directing my criticism at you primarily, but your efforts to be neutral--while admirable overall--tend to be misguided when you're not applying critical thinking to the big picture. Using your limited personal experience has little bearing on how a highly-paid coach should be managing professional athletes who are supposed to train and practice (there's that word again) to be ready for a full NBA season.

For the record, I don't consider you a Doc apologist, but your lack of acknowledging certain factors, whether it's during our previous argument about Gallinari's health prior to this season or Doc's inability to make the most of the depth on this team, is ill-conceived in my opinion for whatever that is worth.

[esqtvd]

I'm just giving my opinion based on my own personal game experiences. I have played some games where I was sick or so tired I felt like my feet were in sand. I actually do not even know how pro teams play at their top level so often. I would be exhausted by the travel on some game nights. I'm only speaking about that specifically. I'm not speaking about how Doc played guys in prior years. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

Like I said, I'm not directing my criticism at you primarily, but your efforts to be neutral--while admirable overall--tend to be misguided when you're not applying critical thinking to the big picture. Using your limited personal experience has little bearing on how a highly-paid coach should be managing professional athletes who are supposed to train and practice (there's that word again) to be ready for a full NBA season.

For the record, I don't consider you a Doc apologist, but your lack of acknowledging certain factors, whether it's during our previous argument about Gallinari's health prior to this season or Doc's inability to make the most of the depth on this team, is ill-conceived in my opinion for whatever that is worth.

shorter Mr. Blue Ink: you disagree with me therefore you're an idiot

[Wammy Giveaway]

There can only be one reason why Doc Rivers hasn't been called out yet:



The 2008 NBA championship that was won by the backs of three superstars and the defensive coordinates of Tom Thibodeau made Doc Rivers bulletproof of criticism. When he defeated the Lakers in the Finals, Doc underwent delusions of grandeur. By defeating Phil Jackson, Doc believed he was Phil Jackson, but all he ever got out of defeating Phil was his partisan charisma, being able to play emotions with the media to make himself look like the victim.

Tell me something: of practice and other malpractices, how was Phil Jackson like as a coach? Did he harbor the same feelings towards basketball that Doc Rivers is having right now? I really want to know how the other reputable coaches have handled their players, game strategy, all that stuff. Somebody on another thread said that Doc follows an old school code - he'll only Hack Attack if the other team does it first - is he more Xerox than color copy? What about the times where he could have been fired, like last year when the Clippers were one game away from a 10-game losing streak, which Doc hadn't had since the 2002-03 Orlando Magic season, only to draw up the Hawks and get an unexpected win which almost helped to save their season? Is there a pattern of convenient security which basically protects Doc from ever leaving the Clippers?

This is why I'm asking: I think West already knows Doc's plan to get out of a sticky situation and is saving the pink slip card for the right moment. Yes, it may take another lottery season to do so, but if it means a step in the direction towards true sport respectability, I'm all for it. What's your take on Doc Rivers vs. Phil Jackson?

[Galloisdaman]

I'm just giving my opinion based on my own personal game experiences. I have played some games where I was sick or so tired I felt like my feet were in sand. I actually do not even know how pro teams play at their top level so often. I would be exhausted by the travel on some game nights. I'm only speaking about that specifically. I'm not speaking about how Doc played guys in prior years. If that makes me an apologist so be it.

Like I said, I'm not directing my criticism at you primarily, but your efforts to be neutral--while admirable overall--tend to be misguided when you're not applying critical thinking to the big picture. Using your limited personal experience has little bearing on how a highly-paid coach should be managing professional athletes who are supposed to train and practice (there's that word again) to be ready for a full NBA season.

For the record, I don't consider you a Doc apologist, but your lack of acknowledging certain factors, whether it's during our previous argument about Gallinari's health prior to this season or Doc's inability to make the most of the depth on this team, is ill-conceived in my opinion for whatever that is worth.

Not everything in life is all or nothing. My comments about the games they had fatigue and illness this season have nothing to do with how many minutes Doc played some players in previous seasons. I'm not defending Doc for anything in previous seasons. Just agreeing with a previous post regarding a few specific games when the team had no legs or were short handed this season. On any given night a first place club can lose to a last place club largely because of fatigue.
As far as staying neutral I have my own bias. We all have bias but just like any judge in any court room to be fair we have to try to look past our own bias when evaluating a situation. I have mentioned a few things I would like to see Doc do differently many times. I don't think that makes me a Doc hater anymore than a Doc apologist. I'm just a guy leaning back in my computer chair giving my opinion. That is what a sports message-board is about. Let me put it to you this way. Wouldn't this board be boring for you if everyone just agreed with everything you said? The great thing about the board is you have multiple opinions. If everyone agreed with me why would I even read the board? I could just talk to myself.