Playoffs Discussion

[KLEON]

I feel so sorry for those Raptors

[lilfishi22]

I never really delved into this whole Booker vs Mitchell discussion. All i was trying, was to explain AtheJ415, why Mitchell isn't criticized for his play and Booker is. Because he's a rookie. And i don't think people in general criticize Booker as much as they did last year, so not sure where this "Everyone hates Booker" is coming from. People acknowledged his improvement this year, and expect him to keep improving.

Also, AtheJ415 specifically mentioned Jazz reporters preferring Mitchell. Not sure what's strange about it, as most reporters are biased towards their own team.

Mitchell definitely does some things better than Booker even as a rookie but I don't think a lot of NBA fans has really moved on from their outdated opinion (as proven this year) that Booker is such an inefficient chucker. Without the media attention to show Booker's improvement, I think a lot of casual or even semi-casual fans still don't see enough of Booker to have changed their minds so I think that's where this "everyone hates Booker" generalisation comes from. I don't blame them either, as a Suns fan even we thought we were tough to watch. Mitchell is an amazing player and a worth ROY candidate but he's also much further along in his development than Booker was as a rookie, he plays under a great system that allows some of his mistakes to be covered up and Utah being an underdog team gets a ton of media love. It's not hard to see why Mitchell gets a lot more praise than Booker despite being closely matched players in terms of production

If Booker is seen/was seen as a chucker....he has nothing on Mitchell. Only thing Mitchell does better than Booker is jump. Booker my not be flashy, but he gets to the hoop way better than Mitchell and draws more shooting fouls. Bookee shoots better, passes better and has a better Alpha makeup. Defensive of wise, Mitchell has a lot of help.

At the end of the day. Who cares? The proof is in the pudding.... Realgm is the only outlet that hates Booker. Advertisers don’t and NBA players don’t, and I don’t, that’s all that matters to me. Stop looking for people to like Booker. He puts a hurting on other teams, of course those fans don’t like him.

You're really selling Mitchell short if that's all you think he is.

[JMac1]

Mitchell definitely does some things better than Booker even as a rookie but I don't think a lot of NBA fans has really moved on from their outdated opinion (as proven this year) that Booker is such an inefficient chucker. Without the media attention to show Booker's improvement, I think a lot of casual or even semi-casual fans still don't see enough of Booker to have changed their minds so I think that's where this "everyone hates Booker" generalisation comes from. I don't blame them either, as a Suns fan even we thought we were tough to watch. Mitchell is an amazing player and a worth ROY candidate but he's also much further along in his development than Booker was as a rookie, he plays under a great system that allows some of his mistakes to be covered up and Utah being an underdog team gets a ton of media love. It's not hard to see why Mitchell gets a lot more praise than Booker despite being closely matched players in terms of production

If Booker is seen/was seen as a chucker....he has nothing on Mitchell. Only thing Mitchell does better than Booker is jump. Booker my not be flashy, but he gets to the hoop way better than Mitchell and draws more shooting fouls. Bookee shoots better, passes better and has a better Alpha makeup. Defensive of wise, Mitchell has a lot of help.

At the end of the day. Who cares? The proof is in the pudding.... Realgm is the only outlet that hates Booker. Advertisers don’t and NBA players don’t, and I don’t, that’s all that matters to me. Stop looking for people to like Booker. He puts a hurting on other teams, of course those fans don’t like him.

You're really selling Mitchell short if that's all you think he is.

Not going to go back and forth. I’m not on the Mitchell is god train just yet. Nice series against OKC and his shots fell a lot better than they did in this series and during the season. But dude looks to shoot first every time, and as been mentioned the bias is sickening when compared to Booker, our board included.

Houston ain’t dumb like OKC.

[Bogyo]

Raptors fans must feel like us when we couldn't get through the spurs...
(Although we got at least 1 series cheated away from us, and the others were officiated "funny" as well, but still)

[thamadkant]

After watching Embiid...give me Bagley Young or Doncic. Slows the game down way too much and it isn’t worth his possible two points. Sixers are so stagnant on O, especially since Ben can’t shoot.

Embiid looks fine with McConnell in. Embiid isn't the issue.

Just saying his game doesn’t dominate when needed. See Tatum, they couldn’t stop him.

You are UNDER ESTIMATING Horford... I've been watching Celtics this entire playoff run and Horford = MVP for them.
He coaches on the court, makes all the right decisions, very Duncan-esque in regards to paint presence in both ends.

I love his contribution.

Embiid is a physical FREAK, 7'2 over 250 pounds, agile and skilled... but Horford defended him very well considering the size and athleticism difference.



If Celtics ever want to clear space for another star, I would LOVE Horford on the Suns... brings in IQ and structure.

[thamadkant]

Raptors fans must feel like us when we couldn't get through the spurs...
(Although we got at least 1 series cheated away from us, and the others were officiated "funny" as well, but still)

Raptors are a joke mentally... I've never seen a team play at 4th gear and be content in the playoffs... they are SOFT as tissue.

[lilfishi22]

If Booker is seen/was seen as a chucker....he has nothing on Mitchell. Only thing Mitchell does better than Booker is jump. Booker my not be flashy, but he gets to the hoop way better than Mitchell and draws more shooting fouls. Bookee shoots better, passes better and has a better Alpha makeup. Defensive of wise, Mitchell has a lot of help.

At the end of the day. Who cares? The proof is in the pudding.... Realgm is the only outlet that hates Booker. Advertisers don’t and NBA players don’t, and I don’t, that’s all that matters to me. Stop looking for people to like Booker. He puts a hurting on other teams, of course those fans don’t like him.

You're really selling Mitchell short if that's all you think he is.

Not going to go back and forth. I’m not on the Mitchell is god train just yet. Nice series against OKC and his shots fell a lot better than they did in this series and during the season. But dude looks to shoot first every time, and as been mentioned the bias is sickening when compared to Booker, our board included.

Houston ain’t dumb like OKC.

Nobody is calling him a god. But if Suns fans think Booker is as close to basketball jesus as we've gotten since Steve Nash, then Utah can sure think the same of Mitchell. Guarantee Booker would be doing the same shoot first, ask about the play later. Just so happens Utah has the spotlight on them whereas we're struggling just to convince people we're not the worst team in the NBA.

[lilfishi22]

Embiid looks fine with McConnell in. Embiid isn't the issue.

Just saying his game doesn’t dominate when needed. See Tatum, they couldn’t stop him.

You are UNDER ESTIMATING Horford... I've been watching Celtics this entire playoff run and Horford = MVP for them.
He coaches on the court, makes all the right decisions, very Duncan-esque in regards to paint presence in both ends.

I love his contribution.

Embiid is a physical FREAK, 7'2 over 250 pounds, agile and skilled... but Horford defended him very well considering the size and athleticism difference.



If Celtics ever want to clear space for another star, I would LOVE Horford on the Suns... brings in IQ and structure.

Let's also not forget about Embiid's impact on the defense. There's a good percentage of people considering him for DPOY

[jcsunsfan]

Guys. Mitchell is on a winning team, Booker is not. Simple answer to why some hold Mitchell in higher regard. No one one the Suns will be taken seriously until the team plays better.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[JMac1]

You're really selling Mitchell short if that's all you think he is.

Not going to go back and forth. I’m not on the Mitchell is god train just yet. Nice series against OKC and his shots fell a lot better than they did in this series and during the season. But dude looks to shoot first every time, and as been mentioned the bias is sickening when compared to Booker, our board included.

Houston ain’t dumb like OKC.

Nobody is calling him a god. But if Suns fans think Booker is as close to basketball jesus as we've gotten since Steve Nash, then Utah can sure think the same of Mitchell. Guarantee Booker would be doing the same shoot first, ask about the play later. Just so happens Utah has the spotlight on them whereas we're struggling just to convince people we're not the worst team in the NBA.

i Just deleted a major Lack of respect for Booker rant about this board and Realgm, but deleted it....

Not goIng there.

[bwgood77]

Not going to go back and forth. I’m not on the Mitchell is god train just yet. Nice series against OKC and his shots fell a lot better than they did in this series and during the season. But dude looks to shoot first every time, and as been mentioned the bias is sickening when compared to Booker, our board included.

Houston ain’t dumb like OKC.

Nobody is calling him a god. But if Suns fans think Booker is as close to basketball jesus as we've gotten since Steve Nash, then Utah can sure think the same of Mitchell. Guarantee Booker would be doing the same shoot first, ask about the play later. Just so happens Utah has the spotlight on them whereas we're struggling just to convince people we're not the worst team in the NBA.

i Just deleted a major Lack of respect for Booker rant about this board and Realgm, but deleted it....

Not goIng there.

A lot of people give Booker respect on the GB. Many have called him a stud and future star. I'm not sure why some make it some sort of competition.

I don't understand why some are knocking Mitchell either. The guy is a rookie and he struggled at first and shot poorly in his first month...33% overall and 28.6% from 3. People like to give Jackson excuses for started poorly and ignore that but not remove stuff in a similar way for Mitchell. Every rookie has to adjust to the speed, pace and experience they face coming into the NBA. Yes, he's a little older, but they are both 21.

Mitchell in each month of the season went from a net rtg of -24, -6, -3, -5, -1, 1, 8. Booker was -6,-7,-2, -9, -13, -22

Jackson monthly range of net rtg was -30 to -14.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Watching the playoffs has reinforced my belief the suns need to aquire more high bbiq two way players. Those are winning type players when you get in high pressure playoff series.

Stevens deseves the credit he gets but having horford really makes his life easier.

[TeamTragic]

Guys. Mitchell is on a winning team, Booker is not. Simple answer to why some hold Mitchell in higher regard. No one one the Suns will be taken seriously until the team plays better.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

Booker will pass Mitchell next season. I have a feeling that Kokoskov will be changing the roster this offseason. We need an emphasis on toughness and high IQ.

Watching the playoffs has reinforced my belief the suns need to aquire more high bbiq two way players. Those are winning type players when you get in high pressure playoff series.

Stevens deseves the credit he gets but having horford really makes his life easier.

Horford is a huge presence on that Celtics team. Definitely need someone like him next season.

[saintEscaton]

5 point deficit. Come on Pels tie it up

[saintEscaton]

Dubs have missed 9 straight field goal attempts and Draymond just got teed up by the ref

[AtheJ415]

Nobody is calling him a god. But if Suns fans think Booker is as close to basketball jesus as we've gotten since Steve Nash, then Utah can sure think the same of Mitchell. Guarantee Booker would be doing the same shoot first, ask about the play later. Just so happens Utah has the spotlight on them whereas we're struggling just to convince people we're not the worst team in the NBA.

i Just deleted a major Lack of respect for Booker rant about this board and Realgm, but deleted it....

Not goIng there.

A lot of people give Booker respect on the GB. Many have called him a stud and future star. I'm not sure why some make it some sort of competition.

I don't understand why some are knocking Mitchell either. The guy is a rookie and he struggled at first and shot poorly in his first month...33% overall and 28.6% from 3. People like to give Jackson excuses for started poorly and ignore that but not remove stuff in a similar way for Mitchell. Every rookie has to adjust to the speed, pace and experience they face coming into the NBA. Yes, he's a little older, but they are both 21.

Mitchell in each month of the season went from a net rtg of -24, -6, -3, -5, -1, 1, 8. Booker was -6,-7,-2, -9, -13, -22

Jackson monthly range of net rtg was -30 to -14.

I am going to hold Mitchell to the same standard Jazz writers hold Booker for the rest of his career. If Booker was considered a "poor man's Anthony Morrow" even this year, which many Jazz writers claimed, or a worse version of JR Smith, then I will sit here andlook at how Book's numbers are better than Mitchell's and proclaim that he is a glorified Flip Murray.

[saintEscaton]

i Just deleted a major Lack of respect for Booker rant about this board and Realgm, but deleted it....

Not goIng there.

A lot of people give Booker respect on the GB. Many have called him a stud and future star. I'm not sure why some make it some sort of competition.

I don't understand why some are knocking Mitchell either. The guy is a rookie and he struggled at first and shot poorly in his first month...33% overall and 28.6% from 3. People like to give Jackson excuses for started poorly and ignore that but not remove stuff in a similar way for Mitchell. Every rookie has to adjust to the speed, pace and experience they face coming into the NBA. Yes, he's a little older, but they are both 21.

Mitchell in each month of the season went from a net rtg of -24, -6, -3, -5, -1, 1, 8. Booker was -6,-7,-2, -9, -13, -22

Jackson monthly range of net rtg was -30 to -14.

I am going to hold Mitchell to the same standard Jazz writers hold Booker for the rest of his career. If Booker was considered a "poor man's Anthony Morrow" even this year, which many Jazz writers claimed, or a worse version of JR Smith, then I will sit here andlook at how Book's numbers are better than Mitchell's and proclaim that he is a glorified Flip Murray.

Booker has the edge in free throw rate , true shooting percentage and PER on a higher usage rate. But Mitchell already edges Booker out in every major advanced stat be it total BPM, Win Shares and VORP while having a DRTg 10 points better per 100 possessions and ORtg only two points less

[AtheJ415]

A lot of people give Booker respect on the GB. Many have called him a stud and future star. I'm not sure why some make it some sort of competition.

I don't understand why some are knocking Mitchell either. The guy is a rookie and he struggled at first and shot poorly in his first month...33% overall and 28.6% from 3. People like to give Jackson excuses for started poorly and ignore that but not remove stuff in a similar way for Mitchell. Every rookie has to adjust to the speed, pace and experience they face coming into the NBA. Yes, he's a little older, but they are both 21.

Mitchell in each month of the season went from a net rtg of -24, -6, -3, -5, -1, 1, 8. Booker was -6,-7,-2, -9, -13, -22

Jackson monthly range of net rtg was -30 to -14.

I am going to hold Mitchell to the same standard Jazz writers hold Booker for the rest of his career. If Booker was considered a "poor man's Anthony Morrow" even this year, which many Jazz writers claimed, or a worse version of JR Smith, then I will sit here andlook at how Book's numbers are better than Mitchell's and proclaim that he is a glorified Flip Murray.

Booker has the slight edge in free throw rate , true shooting percentage and PER on a higher usage rate. But Mitchell already edges Booker out in every major advanced stat be it total BPM, Win Shares and VORP while having a DRTg 10 points better per 100 possessions and ORtg only two points less

It is so wholly inappropriate to compare Win Shares for players on Phoenix and Utah. Win shares literally divides wins amongst players. If you don't have an apples to apples win total it leads to crazy results where guys like Harrison Barnes on GS appear better than true stars (like Harden on Houston). Same with BPM. Obviously, teams that are good are going to have much greater BPM's v. teams that lose games by 40 routinely. DRtg is similarly a team stat. Point being, you have to compare the right stats in the right context. Mitchell is a better defender, but he does absolutely nothing better on offense despite having a much better supporting cast and coach and being older.

[suns91fan]

I am going to hold Mitchell to the same standard Jazz writers hold Booker for the rest of his career. If Booker was considered a "poor man's Anthony Morrow" even this year, which many Jazz writers claimed, or a worse version of JR Smith, then I will sit here andlook at how Book's numbers are better than Mitchell's and proclaim that he is a glorified Flip Murray.

Booker has the slight edge in free throw rate , true shooting percentage and PER on a higher usage rate. But Mitchell already edges Booker out in every major advanced stat be it total BPM, Win Shares and VORP while having a DRTg 10 points better per 100 possessions and ORtg only two points less

It is so wholly inappropriate to compare Win Shares for players on Phoenix and Utah. Win shares literally divides wins amongst players. If you don't have an apples to apples win total it leads to crazy results where guys like Harrison Barnes on GS appear better than true stars (like Harden on Houston). Same with BPM. Obviously, teams that are good are going to have much greater BPM's v. teams that lose games by 40 routinely. DRtg is similarly a team stat. Point being, you have to compare the right stats in the right context. Mitchell is a better defender, but he does absolutely nothing better on offense despite having a much better supporting cast and coach and being older.

Win shares do not divide wins between players. Wins are not included in the formula in any way. It's a pure box score stat, just like BPM. Only thing you can argue about here, is the fact that Booker has worse teammates around him, which can hurt him, unlike Mitchell, who's teammates are better and probably had it easier.

[saintEscaton]

I am going to hold Mitchell to the same standard Jazz writers hold Booker for the rest of his career. If Booker was considered a "poor man's Anthony Morrow" even this year, which many Jazz writers claimed, or a worse version of JR Smith, then I will sit here andlook at how Book's numbers are better than Mitchell's and proclaim that he is a glorified Flip Murray.

Booker has the slight edge in free throw rate , true shooting percentage and PER on a higher usage rate. But Mitchell already edges Booker out in every major advanced stat be it total BPM, Win Shares and VORP while having a DRTg 10 points better per 100 possessions and ORtg only two points less

It is so wholly inappropriate to compare Win Shares for players on Phoenix and Utah. Win shares literally divides wins amongst players. If you don't have an apples to apples win total it leads to crazy results where guys like Harrison Barnes on GS appear better than true stars (like Harden on Houston). Same with BPM. Obviously, teams that are good are going to have much greater BPM's v. teams that lose games by 40 routinely. DRtg is similarly a team stat. Point being, you have to compare the right stats in the right context. Mitchell is a better defender, but he does absolutely nothing better on offense despite having a much better supporting cast and coach and being older.

Ok then lets look at RPM which accounts for teammates,opponents and other additional factors. Mitchell has a 1.72 ORPM, 0.54 DPRM for a total RPM of 2.26. Booker 1.52 ORPM -2.44 DRPM for a total RPM of -0.92. What to make of that? Booker being 51 days younger and having two additional years of NBA conditioning/training is more of a disadvantage than Mitchell's supporting cast/coach?