Showdown: Defensive Prime: Lebron James or Michael Jordan

[The Rebel]

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Better defenses? Playing defense today is much more difficult because of the 3 point shooting and more sophisticated offenses. Earlier it was iso after iso which is much easier to guard.

What? You realize they pushed the no hand checking rule to make it easier on offensive guys on the perimeter don't you? That does not make defenses better, that makes them worse. It is much harder to score when guys could actually put a body on you.

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Defense was not better back then. Not to take anything away from Jordan, but defense was much worse back then.

You cannot even play defense on the perimeter now. What are you talking about?

[mihail_petkov]

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Better defenses? Playing defense today is much more difficult because of the 3 point shooting and more sophisticated offenses. Earlier it was iso after iso which is much easier to guard.

What? You realize they pushed the no hand checking rule to make it easier on offensive guys on the perimeter don't you? That does not make defenses better, that makes them worse. It is much harder to score when guys could actually put a body on you.

Yes, there is no hand checking but there is zone defense. You know what MJ said about the zone?

"I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

Zone defense + ball movement + three point shooting + better all around players is much better to defend than iso after iso. I don't even know why we should discuss this, it's pretty obvious.

[LivingLegend]

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Defense was not better back then. Not to take anything away from Jordan, but defense was much worse back then.

Defenses in the 90s were a bunch of half court players with the combined athleticism of your average rec league player in 2018.

It was more 'physical' because there was less spacing with the lack of 3pt shooting and overall slow unathletic players that just bumpercar into everybody in the paint.

[Kurosawa0]

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Better defenses? Playing defense today is much more difficult because of the 3 point shooting and more sophisticated offenses. Earlier it was iso after iso which is much easier to guard.

What? You realize they pushed the no hand checking rule to make it easier on offensive guys on the perimeter don't you? That does not make defenses better, that makes them worse. It is much harder to score when guys could actually put a body on you.

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

Defense was not better back then. Not to take anything away from Jordan, but defense was much worse back then.

You cannot even play defense on the perimeter now. What are you talking about?

Hand checking was not that important in NBA basketball. People have overrated that too long. It's not about individual defense. You can overload to the strong side and make players face a more loaded path to the basket. It's why three point shooting, drive and kick, spacing etc. is where the league is at.

Ask yourself this, we have the best athletes the league has ever seen, but yet we see less poster dunks than we used to. Why? Because defenses are allowed to be in positions earlier now than they used to.

Stop listening to players from that era complaining about defense now. Every player puts the game down that follows their career. Players that are playing now will do it to the next generations.

Google some of the coaches talking about this. Steve Kerr has said this. David Thorpe has.

[Jaivl]

This is totally going to be a civilized discussion.

As for the OP, I got LeBron here. It's not particularly close if talking about defensive primes IMO.

[Kurosawa0]

Better defenses? Playing defense today is much more difficult because of the 3 point shooting and more sophisticated offenses. Earlier it was iso after iso which is much easier to guard.

What? You realize they pushed the no hand checking rule to make it easier on offensive guys on the perimeter don't you? That does not make defenses better, that makes them worse. It is much harder to score when guys could actually put a body on you.

Yes, there is no hand checking but there is zone defense. You know what MJ said about the zone?

"I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."

Zone defense + ball movement + three point shooting + better all around players is much better to defend than iso after iso. I don't even know why we should discuss this, it's pretty obvious.

Kobe has said the same thing actually. He said he would like to go back to the old rules where it was more about having to guard your man. That if you got beat you didn't have as much help as teams have now.

[homecourtloss]

This was LeBron at 31 and approaching 50,000 minutes. He was charged with being his team’s entire defensive system in addition to being the best scorer, creator, and often times, rim protector. Jordan had Pippen and Grant help him starting from at the latest 1989 and then become defensive forces. Then you had Rodman and Harper after that along with Kukoc was a solid defender.

We don’t have tracking for Jordan, obviously, but i find it unlikely he had a defensive season like this even at the peak of his athleticism. One of the posters who did projects on Wilt and Jordan (Dipper 13 maybe) charted one series Jordan played in 1992 against either the Cavs or Knicks and the opposition actually shot BETTER against Jordan than it did against the everyone else in aggregate during the regular season. Obviously just one series, but this myth of Jordan shutting down everyone and wreaking havoc on defense is just a myth.

2016 LeBron. He should have been a defensive player of the year candidate while leading his team’s defense for at least 8-9 years in row, but wasn’t even considered.

ISO defense

LeBron: .59 points per possession (PPP), 93rd percentile
Draymond: .68, 85th percentile
Kawhi: .69 PPP, 83rd percentile

Pick and roll ball handler

Kawhi: .65 PPP, 90th percentile
LeBron: .66 PPP, 88th percentile
Draymond: .88, 27th percentile

Pick and roll roll man

Kawhi: .50 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .70 PPP, 84th percentile
Draymond: .77 PPP, 75th percentile

Post defense

Draymond: .65 PPP, 89th percentile
LeBron: .77 PPP, 73rd percentile
Kawhi: .77 PPP, 71st percentile (numbers are rounded so James might have been at .772 and Kawhi at .768 or something)

Spot up defense

LeBron: .80 PPP, 87th percentile
Kawhi: .88 PPP, 75th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 66th percentile

Off screens defense

Draymond: .45 PPP, 98th percentile
LeBron: .74PPP, 85th percentile
Kawhi: 1.05 PPP, 31st percentile

Hand offs defense

LeBron: .49 97th percentile
Kawhi: .72 PPP, 78th percentile
Draymond: .91 PPP, 43rd percentile

No data available for transition defense, defense on cuts, and defense on offensive rebound out backs. In his thirteenth season playing on a team that's otherwise not that good defensively, James quietly out together a great, great defensive season because he had to since his team really had maybe three other plus defenders. Unlike Kawhi and Draymond who were subpar in some categories, James was at worst in the 73rd percentile.

The argument, “well, LeBron didn’t match up against the opposition’s best scorers doesn’t really hold water because look at the overall FG% of Dray’s, Kawhi’s, and LeBron’s opposition.

Players Draymond defended: 45.5%
Players Kawhi defended: 44.8%
Players LeBron defunded: 44.7%

Draymond Green:

Overall: 39.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 45.5%, -6.1%
Threes: 29.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -5.1%
Twos: 42.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.2%, -6.3%
<6ft: 51.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.6%, -8.7%

Kawhi

Overall: 39.2 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.8%, -5.6%
Threes: 33.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.9, -1.2%
Twos: 41.7 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 48.8%, -7.2%
<6ft: 53.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.5%, -7.0%

LeBron:

Overall: 37.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.7%, -7.3%
Threes: 32.1 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 34.6%, -2.6%
Twos: 40.8 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 49.0%, -8.2%
<6ft: 48.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 59.9%, -11.3%

LeBron In the playoffs was ridiculous:

Overall: 31.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 45.9%, -14.0%
Threes: 24.1 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 36.7%, -12. 6%
Twos: 36.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 50.5%, -13.9%
<6ft: 37.9 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 61.3%, -23.5%

LeBron In the finals was utterly ridiculous:

Overall: 31.6 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -16.3%
Threes: 29.0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 39.6%, -10.6%
Twos: 33.3 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 53.6%, -20.3%
<6ft: 38.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 63.6%, -25.1%

LeBron In the finals’ last three games was I don’t know what:

Overall: 19.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 47.4, -28.4%
Threes: 12.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 40.7%, -28.2%
Twos: 25 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 52.4%, -27.4%
<6ft: 15.4 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 60.6%, -45.2

The Warriors shot 2/13 AT THE RIM against LeBron during the final three games. Had James not stopped those shots (everyone knows the blocked shot on Iggy), Warriors win.

The guy not only led them in scoring and creating offense for others, he led their perimeter defense AND was one of the best rim protectors in the 2016 NBA playoffs.


 

[Dupp]

Has anyone watched these playoffs? The “ no hand checking “ stuff is a little hunerous..


Did Jordan actually deserve his dpoy? Well...



Anyway Lebron at his best was the defensive anchor for the heat, he is a much better team defender than mj was and more versatile

Mj was a much better one on one defender..

Both still elite at the other guys strength

[Sublime187]

Is this a serious thread? MJ by a nautical mile.

Is this is a serious thread? Lebron by a nautical mile.

[mischievous]

Lebron was better, but it’s not a big gap like his stans want you to believe. And the idea that Lebron can legit guard 1-5 and that he was more of a rim protector than Bosh is total mythology. His man to man d against quicker wings and guards is really overrated he’d typically get blown by.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I’d go with Lebron. He can seamlessly switch from point guard, to wing, to big, and play elite level help-defense also. MJ was probably a little better at guarding perimeter players, but Lebron can definitely hold smaller players/wing players well.

[ronnymac2]

Jordan won defensive player of the year and deserved it, in an NBA with considerably better defense than today. Sorry but it was not that close.

MJ didn't deserve his DPOY. Not even close. The greatest non-Bill Russell defensive C in his defensive prime was playing (Akeem Olajuwon), as was one of the greatest shot-blockers ever who was in the midst of leading a verifiable defensive dynasty (Mark Eaton).

at the fact that this myth continues. Grab a clue.

[pandrade83]

Everyone taking MJ probably has the DPOY as a centerpiece of their argument - so let's look at "is MJ's DPOY defensible"?

Emphasis on the word "defensible".

Let's start with team results:

1. Utah (-4.9) - Eaton as rim protection - obviously has a case there.
2. Detroit (-2.7) - Bad Boy Pistons team that made the finals.
3. Chicago (-2.5). A pro-Jordan argument would note that the quality or lack thereof from the center position (Corzine, Sellers) & point out the fact that MJ led the team in blocks - the anti-MJ argument would note that after Oak left the following year, the team was basically league average and also note that Chicago was 1st in defensive rebounding % - which Oak obviously has a huge impact on.
4. Houston (-2.3) - Olajuwon as rim protection.
5. Cleveland (-2.0) - Daugherty isn't the strongest defensive center ever, but they did have Nance & Hot Rod Williams.

When thinking about DPOY candidates & impact on team, Eaton & Olajuwon would be strongest contenders with Ewing (7th/23 in defense, 3 blocks per game, limited help) rounding out the competition.

MJ tied Olajuwon for the league lead in blocks + steals per game - for whatever that's worth.

Looking at AS guards (plus a couple noteables), here's what they averaged vs. Chicago:

Lever 20 (+1) - although Adams got totally shut-down & it's hard to say who guarded who.
Ainge 14 (-2)
Drexler 31 (+4)
Robertson 9 (-11)
Dumars 11 (-3)
Scott 20 (-2)

So, overall it looks like MJ did a pretty good job against some of the better 2 guards of the time in a heavy man to man era.

Drexler is the only one who got above his average and those games themselves had mixed results:

Game 1: Blazers win 104-96, Drexler has 42/5/9 + 8 steals on 18/33 shooting & 0 Turnovers! MJ has 52 while shooting 21/34 but the rest of the squad was a miserable 16/42 - oof.
Game 2: Chicago wins 116-101, Drexler goes 8/21 on his way to 20 points with 9 reb & 4 ast while MJ goes off for 38/11/7


Anyway, this is getting long-winded so let's summarize:

Jordan is a heavy contributor to the 3rd best defense in the league; he's the best "rim protection" the team has but Oak's impact shouldn't be swept under the rug - and may possibly be better than Jordan. I think MJ deserves to be on the ballot. Having an elite defense like that without elite rim protection isn't nothing and is a fairly impressive accomplishment in and of itself. Would I say his impact is better than Olajuwon, Ewing or perhaps even Eaton? Probably not - but there's some kind of an argument to be made for Jordan here - & I'm not sure Lebron's defense has ever been quite on that level.

[therealbig3]

For people saying Jordan is better at man D...would Jordan have been any more successful than LeBron against Durant, since he's a smaller, weaker player on D? He'd have a harder time affecting his shot tbh. Not that he would guard him...Pippen would...LeBron's backup was the corpse of Richard Jefferson.

Also, I seem to remember Jordan having issues trying to defend Magic, who would just body him in the post and wear him down a bit, until Pippen took some of the defensive responsibility. LeBron would have been much better at defending Magic, since Magic wouldn't really be able to post him up.

[therealbig3]

Everyone taking MJ probably has the DPOY as a centerpiece of their argument - so let's look at "is MJ's DPOY defensible"?

Emphasis on the word "defensible".

Let's start with team results:

1. Utah (-4.9) - Eaton as rim protection - obviously has a case there.
2. Detroit (-2.7) - Bad Boy Pistons team that made the finals.
3. Chicago (-2.5). A pro-Jordan argument would note that the quality or lack thereof from the center position (Corzine, Sellers) & point out the fact that MJ led the team in blocks - the anti-MJ argument would note that after Oak left the following year, the team was basically league average and also note that Chicago was 1st in defensive rebounding % - which Oak obviously has a huge impact on.
4. Houston (-2.3) - Olajuwon as rim protection.
5. Cleveland (-2.0) - Daugherty isn't the strongest defensive center ever, but they did have Nance & Hot Rod Williams.

When thinking about DPOY candidates & impact on team, Eaton & Olajuwon would be strongest contenders with Ewing (7th/23 in defense, 3 blocks per game, limited help) rounding out the competition.

MJ tied Olajuwon for the league lead in blocks + steals per game - for whatever that's worth.

Looking at AS guards (plus a couple noteables), here's what they averaged vs. Chicago:

Lever 20 (+1) - although Adams got totally shut-down & it's hard to say who guarded who.
Ainge 14 (-2)
Drexler 31 (+4)
Robertson 9 (-11)
Dumars 11 (-3)
Scott 20 (-2)

So, overall it looks like MJ did a pretty good job against some of the better 2 guards of the time in a heavy man to man era.

Drexler is the only one who got above his average and those games themselves had mixed results:

Game 1: Blazers win 104-96, Drexler has 42/5/9 + 8 steals on 18/33 shooting & 0 Turnovers! MJ has 52 while shooting 21/34 but the rest of the squad was a miserable 16/42 - oof.
Game 2: Chicago wins 116-101, Drexler goes 8/21 on his way to 20 points with 9 reb & 4 ast while MJ goes off for 38/11/7


Anyway, this is getting long-winded so let's summarize:

Jordan is a heavy contributor to the 3rd best defense in the league; he's the best "rim protection" the team has but Oak's impact shouldn't be swept under the rug - and may possibly be better than Jordan. I think MJ deserves to be on the ballot. Having an elite defense like that without elite rim protection isn't nothing and is a fairly impressive accomplishment in and of itself. Would I say his impact is better than Olajuwon, Ewing or perhaps even Eaton? Probably not - but there's some kind of an argument to be made for Jordan here - & I'm not sure Lebron's defense has ever been quite on that level.

LeBron was more deserving of a DPOY in years like 09, 12, and 13 than Jordan ever was imo.

[pandrade83]

For people saying Jordan is better at man D...would Jordan have been any more successful than LeBron against Durant, since he's a smaller, weaker player on D? He'd have a harder time affecting his shot tbh. Not that he would guard him...Pippen would...LeBron's backup was the corpse of Richard Jefferson.

Also, I seem to remember Jordan having issues trying to defend Magic, who would just body him in the post and wear him down a bit, until Pippen took some of the defensive responsibility. LeBron would have been much better at defending Magic, since Magic wouldn't really be able to post him up.

If you're referencing 2012, they won that series because they destroyed Harden and OKC couldn't stop them - not because they slowed Durant in any way, shape, form - unless 31 ppg on 65% TS constitutes slowing him.

If you're referencing last year, well . . . KD won FMVP and GSW basically scored at will. I'm not sure that MJ would've done any better in those situations, but he hardly would've done worse.

[therealbig3]

For people saying Jordan is better at man D...would Jordan have been any more successful than LeBron against Durant, since he's a smaller, weaker player on D? He'd have a harder time affecting his shot tbh. Not that he would guard him...Pippen would...LeBron's backup was the corpse of Richard Jefferson.

Also, I seem to remember Jordan having issues trying to defend Magic, who would just body him in the post and wear him down a bit, until Pippen took some of the defensive responsibility. LeBron would have been much better at defending Magic, since Magic wouldn't really be able to post him up.

If you're referencing 2012, they won that series because they destroyed Harden and OKC couldn't stop them - not because they slowed Durant in any way, shape, form - unless 31 ppg on 65% TS constitutes slowing him.

If you're referencing last year, well . . . KD won FMVP and GSW basically scored at will. I'm not sure that MJ would've done any better in those situations, but he hardly would've done worse.

Durant was slowed down in 2012 though. It's not all about points and TS%...he was completely nullified as an overall on-ball creator, as evidenced by his TOs and his inability to create for his teammates. Furthermore, although he ultimately put up points, he was denied the ball on many key possessions because of great ball denial by LeBron.

Either way, LeBron wasn't even really the guy mainly defending Durant in either series, but back in 2012, the stats actually showed that Durant did the majority of his damage when Battier defended him...he actually struggled to score when LeBron defended him.

[INKtastic]

LeBron’s defense last night on 12 shots in which he was the closest defender.

Overall (1-12): 8.3 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.9%, -34.6%

Threes (1-8): 12.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 38.5%, -26%

Twos: 0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 54.5%, -54.5%

<6ft: 0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 65.8%, -65.8%

[ronnymac2]

LeBron’s defense last night on 12 shots in which he was the closest defender.

Overall (1-12): 8.3 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 44.9%, -34.6%

Threes (1-8): 12.5 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 38.5%, -26%

Twos: 0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 54.5%, -54.5%

<6ft: 0 DFG%, opponents usually shoot 65.8%, -65.8%

I said in the LBJ thread it was his best defensive game of the playoffs. Glad the stats back me up on that.

[Goudelock]

From the games I've seen, I've always been more impressed by Pippen's defense than Jordan's, since he combined James' great help defense with Jordan's awesome man-to-man defense. Personally, I would rather have LeBron if I was choosing defenders, since I value help defense over man-to-man defense*.