Showdown: Defensive Prime: Lebron James or Michael Jordan

[LA Bird]

I don't think either deserved a DPOY but if we are going to be counting accolades, 2009 LeBron had just as good a case for DPOY as 1988 Jordan did. Just because the 80s overrated guard defense (see Alvin Robertson and Michael Cooper winning undeserved DPOYs just prior to MJ) does not mean he is a better defensive player.

09 Cavs with LeBron had a 100.6 DRtg (-7.7) while the Magic with DPOY Howard had a 101.8 DRtg (-6.5)
Cavs overall were only the 3rd best defense at -5.9 because they fell off a cliff without LeBron (below average defense at +0.5).
In comparison, the 88 Bulls were also 3rd best defense but at only -2.5 against an almost identical league average DRtg.

LeBron led the Cavs in every defensive statistic: defensive rebounds, total rebounds, steals, blocks and defensive on-off.
He ranked 2nd in DRAPM among perimeter players behind Artest, 2nd in opponent PER among perimeter players behind Kirilenko (while playing considerably more minutes than either) and the Cavs were first at the SF position in points and efficiency allowed.

Both are among the best defensive players at their position but I think it's a small but clear LeBron > Jordan on defense.

[Boarder Patrol]

LeBron was bigger and stronger while being nearly as/just as fast, I think he's the safe answer. Jordan had insane lateral quickness which probably made him better at locking down guys 1v1 but when you consider LeBron's versatility and size I take him.

[pandrade83]

For people saying Jordan is better at man D...would Jordan have been any more successful than LeBron against Durant, since he's a smaller, weaker player on D? He'd have a harder time affecting his shot tbh. Not that he would guard him...Pippen would...LeBron's backup was the corpse of Richard Jefferson.

Also, I seem to remember Jordan having issues trying to defend Magic, who would just body him in the post and wear him down a bit, until Pippen took some of the defensive responsibility. LeBron would have been much better at defending Magic, since Magic wouldn't really be able to post him up.

If you're referencing 2012, they won that series because they destroyed Harden and OKC couldn't stop them - not because they slowed Durant in any way, shape, form - unless 31 ppg on 65% TS constitutes slowing him.

If you're referencing last year, well . . . KD won FMVP and GSW basically scored at will. I'm not sure that MJ would've done any better in those situations, but he hardly would've done worse.

1.Durant was slowed down in 2012 though. It's not all about points and TS%...he was completely nullified as an overall on-ball creator, as evidenced by his TOs and his inability to create for his teammates. Furthermore, although he ultimately put up points, he was denied the ball on many key possessions because of great ball denial by LeBron.

2.Either way, LeBron wasn't even really the guy mainly defending Durant in either series, but back in 2012, the stats actually showed that Durant did the majority of his damage when Battier defended him...he actually struggled to score when LeBron defended him.

On 1 - you essentially just regurgitated the biggest criticism of Durant - i.e. - not really creating for his teammates. This is his biggest weakness - it's not something that Lebron is doing per se.

On 2 - I went back to watch some tape of the Finals - Lebron literally opens the games guarding him - and it undermines your original point anyway.

[therealbig3]

If you're referencing 2012, they won that series because they destroyed Harden and OKC couldn't stop them - not because they slowed Durant in any way, shape, form - unless 31 ppg on 65% TS constitutes slowing him.

If you're referencing last year, well . . . KD won FMVP and GSW basically scored at will. I'm not sure that MJ would've done any better in those situations, but he hardly would've done worse.

1.Durant was slowed down in 2012 though. It's not all about points and TS%...he was completely nullified as an overall on-ball creator, as evidenced by his TOs and his inability to create for his teammates. Furthermore, although he ultimately put up points, he was denied the ball on many key possessions because of great ball denial by LeBron.

2.Either way, LeBron wasn't even really the guy mainly defending Durant in either series, but back in 2012, the stats actually showed that Durant did the majority of his damage when Battier defended him...he actually struggled to score when LeBron defended him.

On 1 - you essentially just regurgitated the biggest criticism of Durant - i.e. - not really creating for his teammates. This is his biggest weakness - it's not something that Lebron is doing per se.

On 2 - I went back to watch some tape of the Finals - Lebron literally opens the games guarding him - and it undermines your original point anyway.

I’m saying that just because Durant scored a lot of points on great shooting doesn’t mean he was all that effective offensively, and I’m also addressing the fact that even the volume and TS% was mostly done against defenders other than LeBron. His efficiency actually took a big hit when LeBron defended him, on top of the other issues he had in that series.

Sure he might have opened the games on him, but Battier defended him the majority of the time.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Jordan. Easily.

That's not a shot at LeBron, Jordan was relentless.

[Dupp]

Everyone taking MJ probably has the DPOY as a centerpiece of their argument - so let's look at "is MJ's DPOY defensible"?

Emphasis on the word "defensible".

Let's start with team results:

1. Utah (-4.9) - Eaton as rim protection - obviously has a case there.
2. Detroit (-2.7) - Bad Boy Pistons team that made the finals.
3. Chicago (-2.5). A pro-Jordan argument would note that the quality or lack thereof from the center position (Corzine, Sellers) & point out the fact that MJ led the team in blocks - the anti-MJ argument would note that after Oak left the following year, the team was basically league average and also note that Chicago was 1st in defensive rebounding % - which Oak obviously has a huge impact on.
4. Houston (-2.3) - Olajuwon as rim protection.
5. Cleveland (-2.0) - Daugherty isn't the strongest defensive center ever, but they did have Nance & Hot Rod Williams.

When thinking about DPOY candidates & impact on team, Eaton & Olajuwon would be strongest contenders with Ewing (7th/23 in defense, 3 blocks per game, limited help) rounding out the competition.

MJ tied Olajuwon for the league lead in blocks + steals per game - for whatever that's worth.

Looking at AS guards (plus a couple noteables), here's what they averaged vs. Chicago:

Lever 20 (+1) - although Adams got totally shut-down & it's hard to say who guarded who.
Ainge 14 (-2)
Drexler 31 (+4)
Robertson 9 (-11)
Dumars 11 (-3)
Scott 20 (-2)

So, overall it looks like MJ did a pretty good job against some of the better 2 guards of the time in a heavy man to man era.

Drexler is the only one who got above his average and those games themselves had mixed results:

Game 1: Blazers win 104-96, Drexler has 42/5/9 + 8 steals on 18/33 shooting & 0 Turnovers! MJ has 52 while shooting 21/34 but the rest of the squad was a miserable 16/42 - oof.
Game 2: Chicago wins 116-101, Drexler goes 8/21 on his way to 20 points with 9 reb & 4 ast while MJ goes off for 38/11/7


Anyway, this is getting long-winded so let's summarize:

Jordan is a heavy contributor to the 3rd best defense in the league; he's the best "rim protection" the team has but Oak's impact shouldn't be swept under the rug - and may possibly be better than Jordan. I think MJ deserves to be on the ballot. Having an elite defense like that without elite rim protection isn't nothing and is a fairly impressive accomplishment in and of itself. Would I say his impact is better than Olajuwon, Ewing or perhaps even Eaton? Probably not - but there's some kind of an argument to be made for Jordan here - & I'm not sure Lebron's defense has ever been quite on that level.

LeBron was more deserving of a DPOY in years like 09, 12, and 13 than Jordan ever was imo.

Lebron deserved dpoy in 2012 ( not the other years) and I don’t believe MJ deserved his but that doesn’t mean lebrons 2012>Jordan’s dpoy year. Different competition etc.

[pandrade83]

1.Durant was slowed down in 2012 though. It's not all about points and TS%...he was completely nullified as an overall on-ball creator, as evidenced by his TOs and his inability to create for his teammates. Furthermore, although he ultimately put up points, he was denied the ball on many key possessions because of great ball denial by LeBron.

2.Either way, LeBron wasn't even really the guy mainly defending Durant in either series, but back in 2012, the stats actually showed that Durant did the majority of his damage when Battier defended him...he actually struggled to score when LeBron defended him.

On 1 - you essentially just regurgitated the biggest criticism of Durant - i.e. - not really creating for his teammates. This is his biggest weakness - it's not something that Lebron is doing per se.

On 2 - I went back to watch some tape of the Finals - Lebron literally opens the games guarding him - and it undermines your original point anyway.

I’m saying that just because Durant scored a lot of points on great shooting doesn’t mean he was all that effective offensively, and I’m also addressing the fact that even the volume and TS% was mostly done against defenders other than LeBron. His efficiency actually took a big hit when LeBron defended him, on top of the other issues he had in that series.

Sure he might have opened the games on him, but Battier defended him the majority of the time.

Ok . . .

1) Miami didn't shut KD down. The shot creation aspects you're speaking to are broader criticisms of Durant - not Lebron specific - and his Turnovers weren't out of control or anything. I'll agree he was limited in terms of his creation for teammates - but that's a problem of his in general - not specific to Miami.
2) KD played worse when Lebron guarded him (beginning of Games 2 & 5 are definitely clear examples for sure), but Lebron didn't defend him the majority of the time in your own words - OK - but then if he's not to conserve energy for offense (reasonable) - it limits his overall defensive impact which is sort of the point of the OP to begin with - and to be clear - if someone is scoring 31 ppg at a 65% TS clip - you are not stopping them. You can talk about shot creation & what not - but then that's to pretend that's not a weakness of KD to begin with. Either Lebron impacted the game more defensively than Mike did at his defensive peak - or he didn't. And if he's not stopping Durant either because he's not guarding him or because stopping KD at what he does isn't something that other human beings can do - the "why" doesn't really matter that much because we're talking defensive impact here.
3) Once Pippen blossomed, Jordan wasn't always guarding the opponent's top threat - I'm not going to try & pretend that he did- but then that's not what you're arguing either. Your argument centered around MJ wouldn't stop Durant - but then neither did Lebron's teams in either Finals.

Miami won that series because they demolished Harden & destroyed OKC's defense - which Lebron was obviously central to as well - but then that's not really the point of this thread.

[magicmerl]

Jordan but I think half the credit goes to Pippen who would help stretch the offense in tandem with Jordan, and help cover for all of Jordan's gambling for steals to stop the Bulls from being too punished.

[pandrade83]

Everyone taking MJ probably has the DPOY as a centerpiece of their argument - so let's look at "is MJ's DPOY defensible"?

Emphasis on the word "defensible".

Let's start with team results:

1. Utah (-4.9) - Eaton as rim protection - obviously has a case there.
2. Detroit (-2.7) - Bad Boy Pistons team that made the finals.
3. Chicago (-2.5). A pro-Jordan argument would note that the quality or lack thereof from the center position (Corzine, Sellers) & point out the fact that MJ led the team in blocks - the anti-MJ argument would note that after Oak left the following year, the team was basically league average and also note that Chicago was 1st in defensive rebounding % - which Oak obviously has a huge impact on.
4. Houston (-2.3) - Olajuwon as rim protection.
5. Cleveland (-2.0) - Daugherty isn't the strongest defensive center ever, but they did have Nance & Hot Rod Williams.

When thinking about DPOY candidates & impact on team, Eaton & Olajuwon would be strongest contenders with Ewing (7th/23 in defense, 3 blocks per game, limited help) rounding out the competition.

MJ tied Olajuwon for the league lead in blocks + steals per game - for whatever that's worth.

Looking at AS guards (plus a couple noteables), here's what they averaged vs. Chicago:

Lever 20 (+1) - although Adams got totally shut-down & it's hard to say who guarded who.
Ainge 14 (-2)
Drexler 31 (+4)
Robertson 9 (-11)
Dumars 11 (-3)
Scott 20 (-2)

So, overall it looks like MJ did a pretty good job against some of the better 2 guards of the time in a heavy man to man era.

Drexler is the only one who got above his average and those games themselves had mixed results:

Game 1: Blazers win 104-96, Drexler has 42/5/9 + 8 steals on 18/33 shooting & 0 Turnovers! MJ has 52 while shooting 21/34 but the rest of the squad was a miserable 16/42 - oof.
Game 2: Chicago wins 116-101, Drexler goes 8/21 on his way to 20 points with 9 reb & 4 ast while MJ goes off for 38/11/7


Anyway, this is getting long-winded so let's summarize:

Jordan is a heavy contributor to the 3rd best defense in the league; he's the best "rim protection" the team has but Oak's impact shouldn't be swept under the rug - and may possibly be better than Jordan. I think MJ deserves to be on the ballot. Having an elite defense like that without elite rim protection isn't nothing and is a fairly impressive accomplishment in and of itself. Would I say his impact is better than Olajuwon, Ewing or perhaps even Eaton? Probably not - but there's some kind of an argument to be made for Jordan here - & I'm not sure Lebron's defense has ever been quite on that level.

LeBron was more deserving of a DPOY in years like 09, 12, and 13 than Jordan ever was imo.

Lebron deserved dpoy in 2012 ( not the other years) and I don’t believe MJ deserved his but that doesn’t mean lebrons 2012>Jordan’s dpoy year. Different competition etc.

I don't think Lebron deserved it in 2012. I'm 100% OK with Tyson getting it - that team was trash defensively around him and had no business - none being a Top 5 defense.

I also would've been OK with KG or Noah getting it; they anchored outlier level defenses.

[Dupp]

LeBron was more deserving of a DPOY in years like 09, 12, and 13 than Jordan ever was imo.

Lebron deserved dpoy in 2012 ( not the other years) and I don’t believe MJ deserved his but that doesn’t mean lebrons 2012>Jordan’s dpoy year. Different competition etc.

I don't think Lebron deserved it in 2012. I'm 100% OK with Tyson getting it - that team was trash defensively around him and had no business - none being a Top 5 defense.

I also would've been OK with KG or Noah getting it; they anchored outlier level defenses.

I think that’s fair and there’s a debate to be had. KG was the best defensive player to me it just comes down to a per minute kind of thing. I personally think lbj was better than Tyson and Noah.

[therealbig3]

On 1 - you essentially just regurgitated the biggest criticism of Durant - i.e. - not really creating for his teammates. This is his biggest weakness - it's not something that Lebron is doing per se.

On 2 - I went back to watch some tape of the Finals - Lebron literally opens the games guarding him - and it undermines your original point anyway.

I’m saying that just because Durant scored a lot of points on great shooting doesn’t mean he was all that effective offensively, and I’m also addressing the fact that even the volume and TS% was mostly done against defenders other than LeBron. His efficiency actually took a big hit when LeBron defended him, on top of the other issues he had in that series.

Sure he might have opened the games on him, but Battier defended him the majority of the time.

Ok . . .

1) Miami didn't shut KD down. The shot creation aspects you're speaking to are broader criticisms of Durant - not Lebron specific - and his Turnovers weren't out of control or anything. I'll agree he was limited in terms of his creation for teammates - but that's a problem of his in general - not specific to Miami.
2) KD played worse when Lebron guarded him (beginning of Games 2 & 5 are definitely clear examples for sure), but Lebron didn't defend him the majority of the time in your own words - OK - but then if he's not to conserve energy for offense (reasonable) - it limits his overall defensive impact which is sort of the point of the OP to begin with - and to be clear - if someone is scoring 31 ppg at a 65% TS clip - you are not stopping them. You can talk about shot creation & what not - but then that's to pretend that's not a weakness of KD to begin with. Either Lebron impacted the game more defensively than Mike did at his defensive peak - or he didn't. And if he's not stopping Durant either because he's not guarding him or because stopping KD at what he does isn't something that other human beings can do - the "why" doesn't really matter that much because we're talking defensive impact here.
3) Once Pippen blossomed, Jordan wasn't always guarding the opponent's top threat - I'm not going to try & pretend that he did- but then that's not what you're arguing either. Your argument centered around MJ wouldn't stop Durant - but then neither did Lebron's teams in either Finals.

Miami won that series because they demolished Harden & destroyed OKC's defense - which Lebron was obviously central to as well - but then that's not really the point of this thread.

LOL all I pointed out was that Jordan would have probably struggled more than LeBron did when defending Durant, not trying to make the point that LeBron was defending him the entire time, because he didn't. Durant's name was brought up before as some sort of evidence that LeBron wasn't as good as Jordan at man defense. When LeBron defended Durant in the 2012 Finals, he actually did a good job in terms of limiting his actual scoring. Durant was abusing Shane Battier, not LeBron. Jordan would have had a bigger problem, because he just doesn't have the physical advantages that LeBron has in terms of bothering Durant.

The point of the thread is who has more defensive impact in their prime. The answer is clearly LeBron, due to versatility and size and defensive acumen. Jordan being a little better at man defense (which is debatable in and of itself, since Jordan had matchup issues with players that LeBron wouldn't have had) is pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

[Freighttrain]

The guy who can guard all positions, obviously

[TheGOATRises007]

The guy who can guard all positions, obviously

He can't though.

Lebron couldn't guard dominant centers.

Why some think he could is beyond me.

[The Master]

This comparison would be very close before 2016 NBA Finals, but like it was mentioned above the level of defense shown by LeBron in these finals was on GOAT D level for wingers, and that is an argument in favour of LBJ that Jordan doesn't have.

LeBron literally won a title for his team not only by his offensive impact but also by his defense, and that happened with Dray Green (DPOTY defender) on a court.

30% DFG with an elite rim protection - his peak level was matchable only by Pippen. If you consider 5-years prime, than Jordan and LeBron are on the same shelf. 10-years stretch would make Jordan better. Peak? LeBron had GOAT seasons on D in regular season (2009; 2012) and GOAT level finals on D (2016).

[Freighttrain]

The guy who can guard all positions, obviously

He can't though.

Lebron couldn't guard dominant centers.

Why some think he could is beyond me.

In this day and era? sure he can.

[The Master]

In this day and era? sure he can.

LeBron could (and from time to time still can) guard 1-4 easily and centers on switches because of his strength and size, but he can't guard them on regular basis.

Not to mention playing him as C on defense would waste his potential on D.

I think in this whole comparison you should not forget that while in late 80s/early90s individual D from perimeter players was much more important because of rules/game style, nowadays much more important is team D. So both were great in their respective eras, LeBron with bigger peak and MJ with better longevity on D. And both played on D with more suitable era - Jordan had amazing hands to be terrific 1vs1 defender while bball IQ and physical gifts make LeBron archetype of generational 3-4 on defense in a style he played in 2016 Finals or in Heat seasons. I wouldn't put one over another generally speaking.

[pandrade83]

I’m saying that just because Durant scored a lot of points on great shooting doesn’t mean he was all that effective offensively, and I’m also addressing the fact that even the volume and TS% was mostly done against defenders other than LeBron. His efficiency actually took a big hit when LeBron defended him, on top of the other issues he had in that series.

Sure he might have opened the games on him, but Battier defended him the majority of the time.

Ok . . .

1) Miami didn't shut KD down. The shot creation aspects you're speaking to are broader criticisms of Durant - not Lebron specific - and his Turnovers weren't out of control or anything. I'll agree he was limited in terms of his creation for teammates - but that's a problem of his in general - not specific to Miami.
2) KD played worse when Lebron guarded him (beginning of Games 2 & 5 are definitely clear examples for sure), but Lebron didn't defend him the majority of the time in your own words - OK - but then if he's not to conserve energy for offense (reasonable) - it limits his overall defensive impact which is sort of the point of the OP to begin with - and to be clear - if someone is scoring 31 ppg at a 65% TS clip - you are not stopping them. You can talk about shot creation & what not - but then that's to pretend that's not a weakness of KD to begin with. Either Lebron impacted the game more defensively than Mike did at his defensive peak - or he didn't. And if he's not stopping Durant either because he's not guarding him or because stopping KD at what he does isn't something that other human beings can do - the "why" doesn't really matter that much because we're talking defensive impact here.
3) Once Pippen blossomed, Jordan wasn't always guarding the opponent's top threat - I'm not going to try & pretend that he did- but then that's not what you're arguing either. Your argument centered around MJ wouldn't stop Durant - but then neither did Lebron's teams in either Finals.

Miami won that series because they demolished Harden & destroyed OKC's defense - which Lebron was obviously central to as well - but then that's not really the point of this thread.

LOL all I pointed out was that Jordan would have probably struggled more than LeBron did when defending Durant, not trying to make the point that LeBron was defending him the entire time, because he didn't. Durant's name was brought up before as some sort of evidence that LeBron wasn't as good as Jordan at man defense. When LeBron defended Durant in the 2012 Finals, he actually did a good job in terms of limiting his actual scoring. Durant was abusing Shane Battier, not LeBron. Jordan would have had a bigger problem, because he just doesn't have the physical advantages that LeBron has in terms of bothering Durant.

The point of the thread is who has more defensive impact in their prime. The answer is clearly LeBron, due to versatility and size and defensive acumen. Jordan being a little better at man defense (which is debatable in and of itself, since Jordan had matchup issues with players that LeBron wouldn't have had) is pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

Obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion but aside from the size part (which is self-evident and doesn't need to be argued), you didn't put forth an argument besides the Durant thing - and there's not evidence there that the defensive overall impact was that high.

If you have something else to bring to the table, I'm more than happy to discuss it but you haven't really mentioned anything other than the Durant piece, which in terms of overall defensive impact just doesn't offer much.

And TBH, if you hadn't quoted me - while providing nothing of value - I wouldn't have even bothered with this.

[Gregoire]

IMO peak MJ defense 88-89 playoffs was equal to peak Lebron defense.

[TheGOATRises007]

The guy who can guard all positions, obviously

He can't though.

Lebron couldn't guard dominant centers.

Why some think he could is beyond me.

In this day and era? sure he can.

You think you could stick Lebron on Embiid for the majority of the game?

Come on now. That's pure hyperbole.

[uberhikari]

This almost isn't a fair question because of LeBron's physical advantage. Bigger players have larger defensive impacts; that's just the way it is. Jordan could never be a small-ball center like LeBron. In the 2016 NBA Finals vs. GSW he looked like a smaller KG out there. No perimeter defender can replicate that type of defensive impact.

Toss in the fact that LeBron could, at times, legitimately guard 1-4 and Jordan doesn't have a leg to stand on. Jordan is absolutely a better man-to-man defender, hell, he might even be a better help defender, but his defensive impact is still smaller than LeBron's.