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Around the NBA II

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wco81
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#861 » by wco81 » Tue May 8, 2018 2:37 pm

og15 wrote:
wco81 wrote:So you obviously don't have an explanation about the difference.

Because outside of people on RealGM, nobody cares.

Not like NBA fans stopped buying Durant shoes or jerseys because he committed some horrible offense.

Most honest Warrior fans understand exactly why people dislike Durrant's decision and how it differs from other stars changing teams. They have either just accepted it and say "well we're winning who cares", or they ignore it. Then there's a subset of Warrior fans who want to try and make it seem like it's just a run of the mill average every year star movement that's no big deal and no one should be mad.

Here's the difference:
-Durant went to a team that already had 3 stars and by their own admission didn't need him to win, Paul went to a team with just one star and which NEEDED another star to even be a consistent WCF threat, let alone win
-Durant went to the Warriors knowing full well that he was basically guaranteed a finals appearance and essentially a championship barring injury. Paul went to a team that we weren't even certain would make the WCF and is in no way guaranteed a finals let alone a championship
-Durant went to a team that in the previous two seasons had won 65+ games and won a championship and went to the finals, Paul joined a team that the previous two seasons had a first and a second round exit
-Durant joined a team that won the most regular season games in NBA history, Paul joined a 55 or 56 win team

It really should be easy to figure out unless you are trying to deliberately act oblivious. A ton of people outside of RealGM cared, don't be fooled. It was definitely a big deal when I discussed with my high school and college basketball friends. There were some who were already Warrior fans who were happy, but no neutral fan saw it as good, they saw it as unfair and echoed the same sentiments you had on RealGM. That doesn't mean the the mass of casual fans who are jumping on to a new team every year and all the kids who don't care about any of the details and just want to like good teams aren't going to keep buying jerseys and liking Durant, but to think him having continued support means that another mass of people weren't extremely disapproving, that would be naive.

You can even just look at fans on road and other social media outlets, including Durant's own Twitter and his behavior after making the decision. He very aware of the reality of how people feel, so thinking it's some RealGM phenomenon is just ridiculous.


First of all, most free agent signings are primarily driven by money.

It may appear like Durant left money on the table but he makes far more off court than his NBA salary, like Lebron. But I suspect he got incentives from Nike to join the Warriors.

Second you make it sound as if there weren't valid basketball reasons to join the Warriors. He plays with far more spacing than he ever would have had staying in OKC or going to another team. His efficiency has been as high as its ever been, though he's not shooting that well in the playoffs so far.

Third, CP3 left for the Rockets to win a ring, which is what you're accusing Durant of. Durant did win but for all we know, that's all he will ever win. Warriors are nowhere near the form from a year ago and I have my doubts that they can regain it. If that turns out to be the case, they probably peaked last year and a top-heavy roster doesn't make for a juggernaut team.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#862 » by QRich3 » Tue May 8, 2018 2:51 pm

He really did take the hardest road, the poor thing, didn't he :lol:

Come on man, stop playing dumb. Those "valid basketball reasons" you mention were not just valid, they were so obviously advantageous that no other player in the history of basketball had such an easy way out.

I like how you take his own playbook of excuses, he's so much more efficient, he wakes up so early to work out! No one cares. People knew he was good, that's why the lack of courage and competitive spirit is despised. The better he is, the more that's gonna be put in the forefront, and the more he wins, the more people are gonna remember he jumped in for a free ride. You know this, he knows this, stop trying to make like you don't understand it.

Paul left an impossible situation for a slightly less hard one. The fact that Morey built such a good team and things are working out well only makes him more likeable, cause they created a new threat to the established favorites. They didn't join them while killin the only existing threat, like Durant did.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#863 » by og15 » Tue May 8, 2018 2:53 pm

og15 wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:
og15 wrote:These aren't proper comparisons Quake. Bud left because the Hawks didn't want to win and it was rumored the he was criticized by management for winning a game late in the season. He didn't want to be part of that kind of plan.

SVG left because the Pistons wanted to take away his POBO role and make him coach only and he did not want that.

Doc stayed because he accepted his demotion, and because there was no conflict about wanting to win or not. The details are definitely quite important here.

Disagree.

I can compare anything based on WHERE they are similar. You have every right to point out where they are different. That's why it's called a comparison, not a "Quake points out 3 situations that are carbon copies of each other."

Budenholzer DID in fact accept his demotion like Doc did and it ended up not working out.

The "details" answer different questions than the one that interest me the most.

What championship team/ dynasty/ perennial deep playoff run teams in the history of this league have a coach that has been demoted from the POBO role? I guess we're supposed to be the first???? I really don't know.


edit:
And I've been alright with Doc being demoted in the past. I'm second guessing that as of now.

I didn't say you can't compare it, I just said it's not proper comparison based on the point you seemed to be making. It seemed like you were suggesting the those two teams fired those dual role guys as coaches and the Clippers alternatively extended Doc.

So the comparison you seem to be making, and correct me if I'm wrong is that those teams were smart in moving on from their dual role guys completely and the Clippers are dumb in keeping Doc as coach. The problem I see there is that Bud left because he didn't want to be there, so he wasn't fired, so that was not anything smart by ATL. The second is that unlike Doc, Stan didn't agree with being demoted which led him to be fired, so again different situation because the Pistons wanted him as coach just not as manager, but he didn't want that. The smart part for Detroit was ending that dual role, the Clippers also did that.

If Doc wanted to leave he would be gone, and if Doc disagreed with being demoted, he would be gone. Similarly, if ATL wasn't trying to deliberately tank, Bud would still be there, and if SVG accepted just being a coach, he would likely still be there.

That dual role was not common before. For some reason teams decided to do it more recently and they are mostly realizing that it doesn't work well in the majority of cases. A coach being demoted from that role doesn't have any effect I can think of on the ability of a team to do those things you mentioned.

I found an article saying that SVG was willing to stay as just coach, but the Pistons wanted a new direction, so I stand corrected on that one.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#864 » by Quake Griffin » Tue May 8, 2018 5:20 pm

og15 wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:
og15 wrote:These aren't proper comparisons Quake. Bud left because the Hawks didn't want to win and it was rumored the he was criticized by management for winning a game late in the season. He didn't want to be part of that kind of plan.

SVG left because the Pistons wanted to take away his POBO role and make him coach only and he did not want that.

Doc stayed because he accepted his demotion, and because there was no conflict about wanting to win or not. The details are definitely quite important here.

Disagree.

I can compare anything based on WHERE they are similar. You have every right to point out where they are different. That's why it's called a comparison, not a "Quake points out 3 situations that are carbon copies of each other."

Budenholzer DID in fact accept his demotion like Doc did and it ended up not working out.

The "details" answer different questions than the one that interest me the most.

What championship team/ dynasty/ perennial deep playoff run teams in the history of this league have a coach that has been demoted from the POBO role? I guess we're supposed to be the first???? I really don't know.


edit:
And I've been alright with Doc being demoted in the past. I'm second guessing that as of now.

I didn't say you can't compare it, I just said it's not proper comparison based on the point you seemed to be making. It seemed like you were suggesting the those two teams fired those dual role guys as coaches and the Clippers alternatively extended Doc.

So the comparison you seem to be making, and correct me if I'm wrong is that those teams were smart in moving on from their dual role guys completely and the Clippers are dumb in keeping Doc as coach. The problem I see there is that Bud left because he didn't want to be there, so he wasn't fired, so that was not anything smart by ATL. The second is that unlike Doc, Stan didn't agree with being demoted which led him to be fired, so again different situation because the Pistons wanted him as coach just not as manager, but he didn't want that. The smart part for Detroit was ending that dual role, the Clippers also did that.

If Doc wanted to leave he would be gone, and if Doc disagreed with being demoted, he would be gone. Similarly, if ATL wasn't trying to deliberately tank, Bud would still be there, and if SVG accepted just being a coach, he would likely still be there.

That dual role was not common before. For some reason teams decided to do it more recently and they are mostly realizing that it doesn't work well in the majority of cases. A coach being demoted from that role doesn't have any effect I can think of on the ability of a team to do those things you mentioned.

Admittedly, the snarkiness of the post suggests that I'm saying Pistons and Hawks, smart. Clippers, dumb. I'm not.

My overall thoughts are that for us to go forward in this manner and win a championship or be a dynasty is unprecedented.

What does the rest of the league do when their Coach/POBO doesn't work? They either move on or it eventually ends in a break up. I think it is important to look at the odds or the probability of a certain course of action if we are going to buck the trend or be the exception to the rule. It's in discussing the probability/odds that the details may become important as to why we can buck the trend or be an exception to the rule.

But my intention was not to speak in such an absolute that Pistons and Hawks, smart. Clippers, dumb. Pistons and Hawks, going on to great things. Clippers, going onto failure.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#865 » by og15 » Tue May 8, 2018 5:36 pm

Understood. Have their been any details on Doc's contract? I think the good thing is that he can still be let go of at any time.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#866 » by Quake Griffin » Tue May 8, 2018 5:51 pm

og15 wrote:Understood. Have their been any details on Doc's contract? I think the good thing is that he can still be let go of at any time.

I don't think so.


Well, that's more of what I'm scared of tbh.

Not only do I want to be a player for 2019 FAs but we also have to be cognizant of the idea that we need to keep Tobias next summer. If we have a mediocre season and fire Doc just because we can let him go at any time, then what's the sell for Tobias? His bird rights and the new coach.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#867 » by MartinToVaught » Tue May 8, 2018 7:12 pm

SVG just came out and said that he was willing to give up front office duties and remain as the Pistons' coach. All signs point to Detroit letting him go because they have higher aspirations than mediocrity. Wish the same could be said for the Clippers.
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Raised Sentiment Towards Idea of Trading Westbrook 

Post#868 » by Ranma » Tue May 8, 2018 7:31 pm

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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#869 » by Quake Griffin » Tue May 8, 2018 8:15 pm

Keep Russell Westbrook away from this franchise.

We need to make winning moves, not appease our fanbase with the facade of "acquiring a superstar."
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#870 » by MartinToVaught » Tue May 8, 2018 8:34 pm

og15 wrote:Understood. Have their been any details on Doc's contract? I think the good thing is that he can still be let go of at any time.

Whether he can be let go has never been the issue, IMO. The issue has been Ballmer's stubborn refusal to ever make a coaching change.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#871 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 12:59 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:Understood. Have their been any details on Doc's contract? I think the good thing is that he can still be let go of at any time.

Whether he can be let go has never been the issue, IMO. The issue has been Ballmer's stubborn refusal to ever make a coaching change.

Ballmer doesn't know basketball, it's going to have to be West and others who push him to do that. They listen to West, so if West had spoken adamantly about them needing a change from Doc, he wouldn't be here. We'll see how it goes though.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#872 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 1:12 am

Back to some around the NBA, CP really wants his conference finals appearance, carrying the Rockets right now. Like I said earlier in the thread, it's really worked out for Houston where Harden and Paul are basically taking turns as the best player in the game while Capela gives them the consistent presence in the middle. It's almost like clockwork in the playoffs that when one or the other has a mediocre/meh game, the other one picks up the slack.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#873 » by MartinToVaught » Wed May 9, 2018 1:47 am

og15 wrote:Ballmer doesn't know basketball

That's not what we were told when he bought the team:

https://www.thestar.com/business/tech_news/2014/06/02/ballmer_a_basketball_fanatic_from_childhood.html

Ballmer's been loyal to Doc from day one. His first move as owner was to give Doc a contract extension before even seeing him coach a game yet. Blaming West is unfair and factually inaccurate.
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#874 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 1:51 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
og15 wrote:Ballmer doesn't know basketball

That's not what we were told when he bought the team:

https://www.thestar.com/business/tech_news/2014/06/02/ballmer_a_basketball_fanatic_from_childhood.html

Ballmer's been loyal to Doc from day one. His first move as owner was to give Doc a contract extension before even seeing him coach a game yet. Blaming West is unfair and factually inaccurate.

He's been a casual basketball fanatic, he doesn't know the actual intricacies of the NBA, this was mentioned before by him, but yes, Doc is also a very good talker and can get people on his side
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#875 » by Quake Griffin » Wed May 9, 2018 2:09 am

CP3 deserves this and he’s earning it tonight.

Beautiful.


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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#876 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 2:12 am

Chris Paul, wow, carried Harden these last two games, certainly wouldn't have expected it to be that way. If the Rockets are going to have a chance vs GS, Harden has to wake up
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#877 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 2:13 am

Quake Griffin wrote:CP3 deserves this and he’s earning it tonight.

Beautiful.


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18 points in the 4th, carried them offensively the last two games, but remember, choker and not clutch :lol:
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#878 » by rocketsfan100 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:01 am

og15 wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:CP3 deserves this and he’s earning it tonight.

Beautiful.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

18 points in the 4th, carried them offensively the last two games, but remember, choker and not clutch :lol:

Harden been sick for that last two games
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Re: Around the NBA II 

Post#879 » by og15 » Wed May 9, 2018 5:02 am

rocketsfan100 wrote:
og15 wrote:
Quake Griffin wrote:CP3 deserves this and he’s earning it tonight.

Beautiful.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

18 points in the 4th, carried them offensively the last two games, but remember, choker and not clutch :lol:

Harden been sick for that last two games

Well that bodes well for Houston and all of us who want to see GS go down
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Further Proof That Chris Paul was Not Clippers' Postseason Problem 

Post#880 » by Ranma » Wed May 9, 2018 1:39 pm

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