Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

[Quake Griffin]

Is this something new or is there any other team that has started building for a title run/ dynasty via the tenacity of a middle of the road PG?

If he's worth his weight in anything, he re-signs next offseason and Kyrie doesn't come here.
That means if you're on his bandwagon, functionally, you want him here to attract Kawhi, Middleton, or Klay's late 20s to early 30s.

I mean....fine...if you really believe his presence is bringing them here, sure. I don't. But...okay.
The only thing I see his presence doing MAYBE...is convincing Tobias to stick around and sign an extension as he may not feel he's signing up for a re-build and has a legit chance at a ring in the last of his prime years. That might be worth it in itself to keep him but if I had even an inkling that Tobias would sign here regardless of what Bev did, I'd send him out for those 3 slots and that extra pick.

That's before I consider microfracture surgery.
When I consider microfracture surgery...aw man.

[TrueLAfan]

I like Beverley in the respect that he’s a valuable player at a decent price—and he’s got leadership qualities. Not really quantifiable, but important—so I agree with Ranma about the team culture aspect. This is a guy who was on the bench when injured and rehabbing, who regularly tweeted about (and therefore was part of) team discussion and activities and kept interacting with teammates in a positive way. He’s a glue guy. Guys like that are worth a little more. Avery Bradley, on paper, is a better player. He’ll also cost more, hasn’t shown the same interest or dedication to the team, and has made it clear that he considers himself a starter. Better, but not necessarily more valuable—especially to us.

So I don’t see Beverley as a cornerstone as much as I do a “nice piece.” He’s a guy that I really think, on a winning team, would be happy with a reduced role and would continue to do the good things he does. I keep coming back to a sign-and-trade of Bradley with one or two of our other guards. I mean, Bradley Beal has been floated a little bit. Washington’s depth at G is limited. For God’s sake, Jodie Meeks played 77 games and 1100 minutes with them. Tim Frazier looked awful all year but played close to a 1000 minutes. Would Washington be willing/interested in trading Beal for a resigned Avery Bradley, Austin, and Milos? Austin and Milos are expiring contracts, so if they don';t work out, the team gets some financial flexibility that they need/want. And that trade gives them depth at the G position that they largely lacked this year. And for us? Draft Shai Gilgeous Alexander, and your four guard rotation is Patrick Beverley, Bradley Beal, Lou Williams, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander with Thornwell/Evans on reserve duty. That’s a (serious) upgrade, IMO.

It would probably not happen. The point is that Avery Bradley has trade value that we need to seriously explore. There are all sorts of good players that make $15-$25 million that some combination of Bradley with Austin and/or Milos and/or Lou could make available to us.

[Akklaim1]

One thing's for sure if we want to improve next year is that Lou cannot be our leading scorer as the 6th man. As great as it is to have him scoring that much, you just can't have your best scorer coming off the bench. Either he starts and have somebody else score 15-16 points off the bench or Lou can score 15-16 points off the bench and have Tobias score 23 ppg.

[kingstyyyle]

Would you guys be willing to trade Tobias Harris and if so what would it take for the Suns to trade for him?

[QRich3]

Would you guys be willing to trade Tobias Harris and if so what would it take for the Suns to trade for him?

I would be very willing for the right price, but I'm not sure the Suns have what it'd take for me to let go of him. Suns 1st and Booker are obviously out of the table, the 16th is too little for me and they already have two picks in that range anyway. Most of the other Suns prospects don't move the needle at all for me. Chriss, Bender, Warren and those guys don't interest me even if you package them all together. I would do it for Josh Jackson, but the Suns wouldn't understandably let go of him either.

I guess I could be convinced for 16th and Miami 2021 1st, and even eat Chandler's contract in the process, but I'm not sure the Clippers are gonna pull the trigger with the main asset coming 3 years from now.

[TrueLAfan]

One thing's for sure if we want to improve next year is that Lou cannot be our leading scorer as the 6th man. As great as it is to have him scoring that much, you just can't have your best scorer coming off the bench. Either he starts and have somebody else score 15-16 points off the bench or Lou can score 15-16 points off the bench and have Tobias score 23 ppg.

The reason Lou scores so much is that he plays so much. 6th men should *not* be playing 33 minutes a game. They should play 15-20% less than that. This, again, points to a problem that needs to be addressed—too many mediocre guards competing for minutes. I‘m not saying Lou is mediocre—he (and Beverley) are the best of our guards because they have specific skill sets. But players like that, even if they start, should top out at around 30 mpg (which is what Beverley played in Houston). What we need is a starting SG that can play 30-32 mpg and put up quality numbers. We used Austin in that role and that’s a mistake. I’m not bashing Austin here—I recognize his strengths and relative value. He doesn’t score enough to be a strong scorer, doesn’t defend well enough to be a strong defender, is a slightly better than average passer and a poor rebounder. That spells mediocrity to me. Austin would likely be better off and have more value as a #3 or #4 guard in a rotation, playing 18-20 mpg. His expiring contract increases that value. Bradley has value as a trade chip. Leveraging those two players—and maybe someone else--into a better player should be our goal. As it stands we simply have too many players with duplicate or mediocre skills in the backcourt.

[MartinToVaught]

The reason Lou scores so much is that he plays so much. 6th men should *not* be playing 33 minutes a game. They should play 15-20% less than that. This, again, points to a problem that needs to be addressed—too many mediocre guards competing for minutes.

Lou's minutes are a coaching issue, not a roster issue, IMO. Doc is like Thibs: he has his starters and his sixth man, and he runs them into the ground as much as possible. Zero imagination, no willingness to develop young players.

[og15]

Sometimes players are used as 6th men when they should be starters just for roster balance. Lou's minutes were fine based on his production and on team makeup. In the beginning of the season he was playing about 21 mpg.

What I'm not a huge fan of is being small in the backcourt. Clippers just have too many small guards. I want to see a 6'6 - 6'7, or at least a lengthy 6'4/6'5 guard in the backcourt.

[esqtvd]

Sometimes players are used as 6th men when they should be starters just for roster balance. Lou's minutes were fine based on his production and on team makeup. In the beginning of the season he was playing about 21 mpg.

What I'm not a huge fan of is being small in the backcourt. Clippers just have too many small guards. I want to see a 6'6 - 6'7, or at least a lengthy 6'4/6'5 guard in the backcourt.

I love Pat Bev, but he's only 6'0" and not a true PG. In fact, with a previous career high of 10.2 ppg with Houston and only 12.2 in 30 mpg as a Clipper [11 games] I don't know if he's even a SG either.

Lou is also only 6'0". Jawun is listed at 6'0" and is probably smaller. This is not good.

BTW, Avery Bradley is only 6'2". [To my knowledge, as an UFA he has no real trade value. Sign & trades are good for being a partner for somebody's salary dump, say if the Sixers sent us Jerryd Bayless for him plus a pick as a sweetener.]

This is why Austin at 6'4" is useful and why Ty, Sindarius and CJ got burn at 6'5", and only Austin and CJ can shoot from 3.

[Yes, Sindarius hit 37% on 3s but shot them only 26% of the time, when he was wide open. True SGs these days stretch the floor by shooting 3s 40-50% of their shots. See Klay, Harden, even CP.]

[Quake Griffin]

Sometimes players are used as 6th men when they should be starters just for roster balance. Lou's minutes were fine based on his production and on team makeup. In the beginning of the season he was playing about 21 mpg.

What I'm not a huge fan of is being small in the backcourt. Clippers just have too many small guards. I want to see a 6'6 - 6'7, or at least a lengthy 6'4/6'5 guard in the backcourt.

Exactly what I was saying in the draft thread.

6'6" or taller. If shorter, I'd want longer arms/ elite athleticism.

[Don Tommy]

It was around this time back in 1988, 30 years ago, when I discovered that LA had a second team, and that team was going to be able to draft Danny Manning, AND have the number 3 pick in the draft. I was hooked right away, and I am about to go into my 30th season as a Clippers fan. Living in Vegas, I am also a Golden Knights fan, and just saw a first year expansion team make it into the Western Conference Finals. So I don't care what it takes, I want to see us get there. I salivate at the idea of throwing out a starting five with the defensive chops of Beverly, Bradley, Kwahi and DJ, with Tobias Harris as the top scorer. Austin, Milos, Lou Will, Harrell and all the kids as a bench unit. It would be the anti NBA, a team made up of players that can get after it defensively. Replace Woodsen with a defense minded coach (I'm not up on the assistant coaches around the league) and let's see what we can do!

So any trade that doesn't include Harris but will net us Kwahi, I'm good with. Sign and trade DJ and move Harrell into the starting five? Might save us a draft pick if we do it that way. I haven't looked at the salaries but the Spurs may want to throw in Danny Green to make salaries match, and I would be good with that if that's what it took to bring in a guy that has been getting MVP votes before this last season

[esqtvd]

It was around this time back in 1988, 30 years ago, when I discovered that LA had a second team, and that team was going to be able to draft Danny Manning, AND have the number 3 pick in the draft. I was hooked right away, and I am about to go into my 30th season as a Clippers fan.

Wow. Charles Smith. What a great Clipper. Until he went mental. Ended up in North Korea with Dennis Rodman.

The weirdest thing about the Sterling era is that when we dumped someone, he didn't really do better anywhere else. After two 20 ppg seasons with the Clippers, Smith declined rapidly.


16.3
21.1
20.0
14.6
[traded to NY along with an undisclosed amount of trash for for Stanley Roberts and Mark Jackson]
12.7
12.4
10.4
8.3
4.6


June 28, 1988: Drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1st round (3rd pick) of the 1988 NBA Draft.

June 28, 1988: Traded by the Philadelphia 76ers to the Los Angeles Clippers for Hersey Hawkins and a 1989 1st round draft pick (Kenny Payne was later selected).

September 22, 1992: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Los Angeles Clippers with Bo Kimble and Doc Rivers to the New York Knicks; the Los Angeles Clippers traded a 1994 1st round draft pick (Brooks Thompson was later selected) to the Orlando Magic; the New York Knicks traded Mark Jackson and a 1995 2nd round draft pick (Constantin Popa was later selected) to the Los Angeles Clippers; the New York Knicks traded a 1993 1st round draft pick (Geert Hammink was later selected) to the Orlando Magic; and the Orlando Magic traded Stanley Roberts to the Los Angeles Clippers.

[Don Tommy]

It was around this time back in 1988, 30 years ago, when I discovered that LA had a second team, and that team was going to be able to draft Danny Manning, AND have the number 3 pick in the draft. I was hooked right away, and I am about to go into my 30th season as a Clippers fan.

Wow. Charles Smith. What a great Clipper. Until he went mental. Ended up in North Korea with Dennis Rodman.

When I was on the JV team I wore #44, but when Hank Gathers died, I retired the number. Next year (1990) on varsity, coach had the jerseys ready, I saw #54 and picked that for Smith. 30 years later, my email even has my number in it! Being a Clippers fan in LA and then later the Navy when they had so many bad years was really a huge part of what I was known for. Hell, at my wedding, my best man in his speech said something like "If he's been supporting the Clippers for 16 years, you know he's a loyal guy!"

[ElectricMayhem]

Umm, hi. I've come to return this Blake Griffin? I've got a receipt. It just didn't fit right. So if you'd kindly open up your cash register and pull out a Tobias, a Boban, and a 1st? You can keep the Avery for your troubles.

[QRich3]

Blake Griffin is a really good player, the last years of his contract are gonna be tough, but a good GM should be able to build a competitive team around him in the East, it shouldn't be that hard even with the Pistons cap situation.

Also, warranty just expired, can't really return it now, but we can give you a voucher for a brand new expiring Austin Rivers or Wes Johnson of your choice

[TrueLAfan]

Charles Smith ... had the high top fade. He had some good seasons but was really a tweener. And when his knees went south, he couldn't move well enough to guard SFs, couldn't get lift on his mid range, and was still too skinny to box out against bigs. The main thing I remember from his tenure is the old Sports Arena, with the 60s plastic that aged to a yellowish/orange color. Loved that place. You could get there early and just go right down to courtside and see the stars checking the court for dead spots.

I love Pat Bev, but he's only 6'0" and not a true PG. In fact, with a previous career high of 10.2 ppg with Houston and only 12.2 in 30 mpg as a Clipper [11 games] I don't know if he's even a SG either.

Lou is also only 6'0". Jawun is listed at 6'0" and is probably smaller. This is not good.

BTW, Avery Bradley is only 6'2". [To my knowledge, as an UFA he has no real trade value. Sign & trades are good for being a partner for somebody's salary dump, say if the Sixers sent us Jerryd Bayless for him plus a pick as a sweetener.]

This is why Austin at 6'4" is useful and why Ty, Sindarius and CJ got burn at 6'5", and only Austin and CJ can shoot from 3.

[Yes, Sindarius hit 37% on 3s but shot them only 26% of the time, when he was wide open. True SGs these days stretch the floor by shooting 3s 40-50% of their shots. See Klay, Harden, even CP.]

I'm on board with pretty much all of this. We need size at the G position. And I think you're largely right about Beverley. He’s an assist every five minutes sort of guy—not a true PG or great distributor, but good enough to play point if you’ve got another starter that can do some ballhandling and pick up another 3-4 apg. His strengths are defense, intensity, and leadership.

And I also agree about AB—but I think he has a little more value than others might think. The rules for sign and trade are really twisted, but AB clicks a lot of boxes that usually hamper trades. Put it this way—he wanted $16 million plus a year before last season started, and made it clear the 4 year/$47.5 extension the Pistons could offer wasn’t good enough. After last season and with the buyers market in free agency, he’s in markedly worse position. I really think he’d accept something like a 3 year/$33 million deal with a player/team option in the third year, for a few reasons:

1) He’d still be only 29 going into his option year—young enough to get a (much) better long term deal if he earns it.
2) Indications are that the FA market will be more favorable in the next couple of summers after this one.
3) That’s more than an MLE deal, and the sign-and-trade allows him to have a much larger amount of teams able to acquire him.

If it wasn’t for his size, I’d think more about keeping Bradley. This is a guy that is one season removed from a pretty great four year run on an improving team—15-4-2 on 44/37/78, with a couple of All-D nods. His injuries last year weren’t chronic. There are teams that can use a player like that, and will give us something for him. I’m fine with a draft pick and lesser players—because we aren’t one of the teams that AB potentially helps that much. I’m with esqvtd … small. Good defender, but so is Beverley. Less of a PG than Beverley when we could actually use a PG. We’ve got a small, high scoring guy. AB is a guy who could really help, say, Washington or Minnesota. Washington had Jodie Meeks playing 20 mpg and could use some perimeter scoring and D; a three guard rotation of Bradley, Beal, and Wall would be terrific. Minnesota is similar—Jamal is their #1 guard off the bench, and he’s slipping—and there’s nothing behind him. These are exactly who we should be targeting—42-48 win playoff teams that want/need to make an upgrade, and won’t get immediate impact for a draft pick in the late teens/low twenties. You mentioned Bayless—I would take Bayless and the #26 pick for a resigned Bradley in a heartbeat. I’d trade Bradley for Jason Smith and Kelly Oubre in a flash. How much burn is Justin Patton going to get on a Minnesota team that has KAT, Taj Gibson, Dieng, and Bjelica? Patton and Cole Aldrich for a resigned AB. Patton is a big with range that missed almost all of his rookie season with a broken foot (and because Minnesota had KAT, Gibson, Ding, etc.). He was a #16 pick. I’d love to get him. These are the types of deals I would be trying to make.

I agree we need to get bigger on the wing, especially at the G position. And I’ll say it again—we’ve got too many guards with similar skills that are largely mediocre. Technically, Bradley is our best guard, and he’s a free agent in a year that’s a buyer’s market. So I’m hoping we get something useful for him.

[esqtvd]

Agree with all this ^^ except as an UFA, we can't really "get" anything for Bradley, certainly not an Oubre. We accept someone's salary albatross [like Bayless or now Covington, who's really stinking up the joint] along with a pick. And I don't even know if it's worth it for the Sixers to spend a FRP on dumping Bayless, who has only a year to run.

And of course, that's only if they're interested in Bradley's ask of a long-term contract. If I'm the Sixers, I'd probably be more interested in the last remaining year of Pat Bev, per the original deal proposed here--although more like for the #26 pick and the #39, not the #10. With Simmons at 6'11" and Fultz at 6'5", I can cover Pat Beverly's lack of height and playmaking. What McConnell is showing is that the Sixers really need spark like Pat Bev has in spades; Ben and Joel are great, but just a bit passive. Pat Bev would be a huge hit in Philly.

As for your other names, sure. I must admit I have no feel for Bradley's market value esp since he wants at least a 3-year deal, and even less that we'll get value in a S&T. I'd sign him for ourselves except it looks like we have Pat and Austin back as lame ducks this year and hopes of developing Sindarius and/or Ty Wallace. No minutes here either.

[QRich3]

Yeah I agree, I don't think we can get anything really useful from Bradley, maybe a couple seconds like when the Bucks S&T'd Redick to us or something similar. But most likely Bradley goes get himself a payday to a bad team with capspace, and we're left with nothing. And I'm ok with it.

[Roddy B for 3]

Do you think LAC would trade Danillo + #12 + Harrell
For
Wes Matthews

What about for Wes Matthews + Jared Bayless?

[nickhx2]

no that'd be awful