Clippers Agree to Terms With Wesley Johnson for $18M over 3 Years

[MartinToVaught]

But when every conversation, whether it is about Wes Johnson, Joe freakin Ingles, or every random game thread, features the same people making the very same arguments for years in a row, it gets tiring real quick.

Doc is literally relevant to all of those topics, though. Doc is the one who chose Cunningham over Ingles. Doc is the one who overpaid Wes. And Doc's coaching is always going to be a topic of discussion in the game threads for obvious reasons.

The real reason why Doc dominates the conversation is because he's made the Clippers all about himself. The storyline of every game is about how Doc will maximize his son's minutes and stats. Doc's the face of the Clippers in the media. Doc was even the GM until this past season. It's not going to change until Ballmer finally makes a coaching change.

[esqtvd]

Let's not keep turning every little thing into Doc-is-the-devil/Doc-is-a-saint posts though please? At this point everyone's opinions and obsessions are clear, and we've all spent hundreds of paragraphs debating the exact same thing. I feel like every thread here has had literally the same arguments between the same people for years now.

It will never end even when is no longer the Clippers' coach. Doc has been a polarizing figure during his tenure here.

lol yeah I get that, and it's alright that there's discussion about it, there's definitely a place for it. But when every conversation, whether it is about Wes Johnson, Joe freakin Ingles, or every random game thread, features the same people making the very same arguments for years in a row, it gets tiring real quick.

It is what it is. And some people are more clever about it, like digging up old threads to restart the d-bagging on Doc. But it's good when the community voices its nausea with it. Freedom of speech should swing both ways.

[madmaxmedia]

I think coach/GM's will always view things with a shorter-term perspective, OTOH when management hires a coach/GM they usually are also in win-now mode as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that we traded Blake after bringing Jerry in, and the team we traded him to was run by a coach/GM.

The decision to re-sign Wes at 3/$18M was very much a Rorschach test for short-term vs. long-term, each position is justifiable just depends on your goal. Short term- we're capped out and can't replace him, our owner is willing to re-sign him, he will help our playoff aspirations. Long term- this guy isn't worth the money, his contract might hurt us later. Both are valid depending on your goals and how things play out.

I am biased against Wes because I just don't like him as a basketball player. But to be honest 3 years/$18M is not that bad either, Jamal Crawford's contract was much worse from a roster standpoint.

[Clemenza]

If Wes wants to see another contract after this season I suggest he strictly focus all his energy on the defensive end. He showed a few flashes of being a really nice defender this past season but at the same time he's also trying to make a contribution and 'get his' on the offensive end which is becoming his downfall imo. To extend his career a few more years and see a few more million he should just put everything on the defensive side as a 15 minutes per game bench guy to sic on a team's top scorer.

[Ranma]

If Wes wants to see another contract after this season I suggest he strictly focus all his energy on the defensive end. He showed a few flashes of being a really nice defender this past season but at the same time he's also trying to make a contribution and 'get his' on the offensive end which is becoming his downfall imo. To extend his career a few more years and see a few more million he should just put everything on the defensive side as a 15 minutes per game bench guy to sic on a team's top scorer.

The thing with Wes is that he's figured out a way to commit as little effort as possible in order for him to get multi-year deals from teams desperate for wings. Even if he performs next season, it would only continue the pattern of him doing well during his contract season in order to entice some team on the possibility of him putting everything together. He's 30 years-old now and that train has already left the station. If I were a team, I'd only consider offering him 1-year deals so that he has to put in the work and effort consistently in order to earn a place on an NBA roster from one season to the next.

[esqtvd]

I think coach/GM's will always view things with a shorter-term perspective, OTOH when management hires a coach/GM they usually are also in win-now mode as well. I don't think it's a coincidence that we traded Blake after bringing Jerry in, and the team we traded him to was run by a coach/GM.

The decision to re-sign Wes at 3/$18M was very much a Rorschach test for short-term vs. long-term, each position is justifiable just depends on your goal. Short term- we're capped out and can't replace him, our owner is willing to re-sign him, he will help our playoff aspirations. Long term- this guy isn't worth the money, his contract might hurt us later. Both are valid depending on your goals and how things play out.

Bingo. Wes will be gone soon and the contract will have done the franchise no lasting damage since we will have sucked for the latter 2 years of it anyway. Even the much-bemoaned Jeff Green pick is lottery protected, and becomes only a 2nd-rounder if not conveyed in the first 2 years. NOT going for it while we had CP and Blake would have been the bigger mistake.

And we'll never know how useful Green would have been in the playoffs since both CP and Blake crashed and burned with season-ending injuries. Here he is 2 seasons later, getting 22 mpg [7.7 ppg on 43%/36%] in the Conference Finals [!] with the Cavs because they have nobody better. Neither did we.

With that said, no coach/GM has the time [or probably inclination] to do the extensive college scouting Lawrence Frank appears to have done. The transition came at the proper time, just as it signaled it was the proper time for CP to go test his luck elsewhere. We aren't in 'win now' mode, we're in 'win later'. Probably MUCH later.

“We want to be very good for a very long time and every decision we make is based on that,” said Frank. “There’s no one formula to build a team. You must do what’s best to fit your overall vision. If there was one way to build a champion, everybody would be doing it. There’s also timing and an element of luck, some of it circumstantial. You try to plan and make the best informed decision you can.”

[og15]

If Wes wants to see another contract after this season I suggest he strictly focus all his energy on the defensive end. He showed a few flashes of being a really nice defender this past season but at the same time he's also trying to make a contribution and 'get his' on the offensive end which is becoming his downfall imo. To extend his career a few more years and see a few more million he should just put everything on the defensive side as a 15 minutes per game bench guy to sic on a team's top scorer.

Wesley Johnson has needed to just focus on a couple of things for a while in his career, but he can never put it all together. He should have taken that starting SF spot his first season with the Clippers, but he just couldn't do it, just couldn't be consistent. Luc is a far superior defender, but Johnson had more overall tools on both ends. He should have made a much better percentage of his three's, but he just couldn't do that either.

Someone will probably still sign him though, but on a minimum contract now. If Corey Brewer with his matador defense and worse shot than Johnson can stay in the league, then Johnson can hang around too. He has good tools for what teams want to do these days, he can technically switch between 1-4 on defense, he should be shooting 37%+ 3PT on a good team where he's getting open shots, he should be cutting and finishing, but instead we have what we have.

The guy his whole career couldn't develop a low straight line dribble to effectively attack the close-out. It seems like if you know your weaknesses and work on that consistently every summer till it becomes second nature, it's something you would add, but he still has a super awkward high dribble and can't even consistently drive past a close-out. He never added consistent cutting to his game. He's scared of contact, so he's an odd finisher if he is challenged. Defensively he's got the ability to help and also to play man to man, but lacks consistency.

[madmaxmedia]

Bingo. Wes will be gone soon and the contract will have done the franchise no lasting damage since we will have sucked for the latter 2 years of it anyway. Even the much-bemoaned Jeff Green pick is lottery protected, and becomes only a 2nd-rounder if not conveyed in the first 2 years. NOT going for it while we had CP and Blake would have been the bigger mistake.

You are totally right about the lotto protection, but I will always have irrational hatred for that trade. It's like the super-low impact version of the Pistons trade in reverse- giving up assets for a presumably better player who ends up playing worse than the guy you traded away.

“We want to be very good for a very long time and every decision we make is based on that,” said Frank. “There’s no one formula to build a team. You must do what’s best to fit your overall vision. If there was one way to build a champion, everybody would be doing it. There’s also timing and an element of luck, some of it circumstantial. You try to plan and make the best informed decision you can.”

This is a great quote. All you can do is be ready, and jump on a opportunity when it arises. Good thing we have the Logo for this!

Wesley Johnson has needed to just focus on a couple of things for a while in his career, but he can never put it all together.

LOL, I was thinking the same exact thing. That is exactly the story of his basketball career! I mean it's worked out pretty good for him anyway I guess. I don't think he's a malcontent or lazy bum, I think he just lacks the basketball sense or IQ (among other things) to know what to do on the court, and figure out off the court how to improve his play and impact. Although you'd think he could easily take directions from his coaches for the 2nd part.

I feel like in a alternate world, he actually ends up becoming an Eddie Jones or someone like that (first name that came to mind, probably because both were Lakers)- a very good complementary starter on a playoff-caliber team.

[Ranma]

You are totally right about the lotto protection, but I will always have irrational hatred for that trade. It's like the super-low impact version of the Pistons trade in reverse- giving up assets for a presumably better player who ends up playing worse than the guy you traded away.

Here's the thing. Doc's failures in draft picks, bad signings and trades lead to missed opportunities down the road. It would be too easy to argue that had Doc selected a decent prospect with any of his draft choices up until then, there might not have been a need to trade a first-round pick for Jeff Green in the first place. Yes, the lottery-protection on it is beneficial, which is why I half-heartedly pointed out that it was relatively one of Doc's better trades at the time only because all of his other moves have practically been outright disasters. Granted, the 2019 NBA Draft is projected to be a weak class overall, but that could quickly change if the league opened it up for prospects to enter directly out of high school.

Going back on topic, remember how the Clippers cut Joe Ingles in favor of little-used Jared Cunningham despite having a glaring need for a small forward? Well, if we had had Ingles still on the roster, there wouldn't have been a need to consider giving up a valuable asset in order to rent Green for half a season. As it was pointed out by many on this board at the time, Green was all kinds of mediocre and on the decline. Contrary to those who live in the Dark Ages, first-round picks have value even if they have protections on them.

Plus, Green's presence on the roster very likely kept us from signing "Iso" Joe Johnson that year when he was killing it in the postseason. While it was not exactly a sure thing, Joe Johnson was widely expected to eventually be bought out of the final year of his over-sized contract by the Nets. Johnson himself has stated that he was strongly considering joining the Clippers that season but chose the Heat because it afforded him more playing time--playing time allotted for Jeff Green on the Clippers--to perform in the playoffs to secure another multi-year contract in the off-season.

It's so lazy to keep coming up with lame excuses or reasons to minimize Doc's colossal failures but when you look at the big picture, it's readily apparent how ugly a situation he has painted us in.

[og15]

On one hand, I agree that we need to understand the reasoning behind these moves, but that is different from agreeing with the reasoning or thinking that it is good reasoning. On the other hand, the moves aren't made in isolation. The draft pick used for Dudley could have been packaged with Jamal and the pick used to draft CJ Wilcox to get a good SF or a good whatever player. Dudley himself could have been traded for a 2nd round pick for example even. Two firsts plus Jamal's contract and whatever else is needed to match would go a long way in the trade market, or even as a more big picture GM, packaged with Redick who was great, but lacked the size needed on the wing.

The draft pick traded for Jeff Green could again have been packaged in another deal to get a better player. I remember discussing with Q-Rich 3 that if we traded the pick for a rental of Green, it was a huge waste, and he responded that yes, that is true but thst it would not be the case. Of course as we pursued Durant and Green found a lucrative deal with Orlando, that ended up being the case, a wasted asset for a former Celtic plagued with inconsistent play, but who Doc the GM overvalued Doc the coaches ability to get more out of him. Of course I understand the explanations we can give about us not seeing him with healthy Paul and Blake, and I agree,

Ballmer has already admitted that they made shortsighted moves and that GM and coach should be separate. A coach is thinking about this season, while a GM will generally have more of a bigger picture view.

So of course we must understand where the team is coming from and the reasoning behind the moves, but also being here and interacting with posters, the disapproval of many of these moves were made in real time, not in hindsight. On the other side of it, we can't see the moves as isolated moves. The previous moves that were made prevented future moves. Draft picks tend to be more valuable as the pick in theory than the actual player drafted. Moving forward the team just needs to be more judicious, and it seems like that is the current pattern.

[QRich3]

The draft pick traded for Jeff Green could again have been packaged in another deal to get a better player. I remember discussing with Q-Rich 3 that if we traded the pick for a rental of Green, it was a huge waste, and he responded that yes, that is true but that it would not be the case. Of course as we pursued Durant and Green found a lucrative deal with Orlando, that ended up being the case, a wasted asset for a former Celtic plagued with inconsistent play, but who Doc the GM overvalued Doc the coaches ability to get more out of him. Of course I understand the explanations we can give about us not seeing him with healthy Paul and Blake, and I agree,

It's possible I said that when the trade was made, but I think my main point after it was more along the lines of your last phrase in this paragraph, that the risk assumed in that trade could have made some sense cause Green could've been huge against Golden State if Doc could've gotten from him the same defensive performance he had in those last Boston years. Of course there were a lot of "if"s and "could've"s there, and we never got to find out, but at the end I remember thinking it was a sunk cost and we'd been better throwin away the pick like we did than givin him a multi year contract.

But yeah, fully agree with the general sentiment of your post, even if you can see the reasoning behind the trade, it was disastrous. And the moves around it only make it worse.

[esqtvd]

The draft pick traded for Jeff Green could again have been packaged in another deal to get a better player.

or not
easy to say, hard to prove

the other factor often left out is that Lance had become a cancer
Doc gave him PT again after the slapfight
after dumping the other Knucklehead Twin, Josh Smith

Lance started acting out again
clapping his hands when he didn't get the ball


you had to dump his salary and find a matching one
and find someone who would risk taking knucklehead Lance
we were capped out
every move has to be examined in that light

and that draft pick might easily turn out to be a 2nd rounder
not the end of the world

we were in win-now mode
you go for it

Jeff is starting right now in the conference finals
not great but not the disaster he's cracked up to be

[og15]

Doc actually said Lance wasn't a cancer or any sort of issue, but what you believe depends on if you trust what Doc says.

“I really wanted more length,” Rivers said of the move. “When you look at the teams we have to beat, we need to get longer, more athletic and we need to increase our shooting. And I think with Jeff we did all three of those things. … I thought of all the things that were offered he was the best available for us.”

Rivers acknowledged the Green trade wasn’t a true game-changer in terms of the Western Conference’s power structure.

While Stephenson was never able to lock down a consistent role, Rivers praised him as a “terrific” guy who conducted himself professionally during his time with the Clippers.

“Basketball-wise, at times he fit and at times he didn’t,” Rivers said. “Sometimes you go with your gut. … I was very ready to go into the playoffs with Lance. If something came our way with more length, like a Jeff Green, we were going to do it. Other than that we were keeping Lance.”

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/02/19/trade-deadline-lance-stephenson-jeff-green-clippers-comments

I mean you can just say little or nothing if the guy is a cancer and you don't want to throw him under the bus, unless he was just lying.

Jeff Green starting in the conference finals is just a product of LeBron being so great and the East not being that great, doesn't mean anything about how good he is or would have been and doesn't make a trade for him back then good. I don't think we need to have a discussion about Jeff Green who is basically another Wesley Johnson when it comes to physical tools but lacking drive and consistency.

The point isn't that it WOULD have been used to make a trade, it is that it could have been used. Any asset that was wasted could have been used for something else and that opportunity is lost. Just like we used Houston's pick to move a terrible Jamal Crawford contract in a sign and trade for example.

Being in win now mode doesn't mean you make shortsighted moves, that's a poor way to look at things. Yes, in win now mode you're more willing to trade draft picks and make moves like that, but you have to balance young and old, you have to also be more judicious in how you use your assets because you have so few and since you need to win now, therefore you don't have room for making too many mistakes with your little assets (first round picks, MLE, nice contracts).

[og15]

The draft pick traded for Jeff Green could again have been packaged in another deal to get a better player. I remember discussing with Q-Rich 3 that if we traded the pick for a rental of Green, it was a huge waste, and he responded that yes, that is true but that it would not be the case. Of course as we pursued Durant and Green found a lucrative deal with Orlando, that ended up being the case, a wasted asset for a former Celtic plagued with inconsistent play, but who Doc the GM overvalued Doc the coaches ability to get more out of him. Of course I understand the explanations we can give about us not seeing him with healthy Paul and Blake, and I agree,

It's possible I said that when the trade was made, but I think my main point after it was more along the lines of your last phrase in this paragraph, that the risk assumed in that trade could have made some sense cause Green could've been huge against Golden State if Doc could've gotten from him the same defensive performance he had in those last Boston years. Of course there were a lot of "if"s and "could've"s there, and we never got to find out, but at the end I remember thinking it was a sunk cost and we'd been better throwin away the pick like we did than givin him a multi year contract.

But yeah, fully agree with the general sentiment of your post, even if you can see the reasoning behind the trade, it was disastrous. And the moves around it only make it worse.

Yes, and my reservation about him was what it had always been, he was inconsistent, his defense was not very good despite looking the part, his 3PT shooting was not actually very good, and at that time he had played a series against GS with Memphis just the year before and was terrible against them. It was a similar complaint I had about Doc since his first season, coaching affecting GM moves, that is making moves for players with the expectation that they would be better under him.

I also agree that after the move was made, there was no need to lock ourselves into a bad long term deal with him. So my issue was always that if you're not resigning him or don't see him as actually worth resigning, then you wasted the draft pick on a rental, and while the injuries to Paul and Blake prevented us from seeing the full outcome, Doc himself said the move didn't push them ahead of anyone, and we saw Green vs GS before, he was not a game changer. Anyways, it's in the past, but there's a way to balance the use of assets and making win now moves vs future building moves.

[esqtvd]

Anyways, it's in the past, but there's a way to balance the use of assets and making win now moves vs future building moves.

Yes, it's in the past but the whining will go on forever.

As for 'balancing' win-now mode, the pick could well turn out to be only a lousy 2nd rounder, and as you note, Doc din't compound the mistake by resigning him--and by the same token didn't take on someone else with a longer-term contract either. Simply not the disaster it's made out to be.

And JG could have made a difference with his length [a 6'9" SF] and simply taking rotation minutes away from lesser players. Luc was the only true SF on the roster--Green's 26 mpg at SF would have had to go to Jamal or Austin. [Or WeJo]. It was a Hail Mary move, true, but you can't cry when one doesn't work--and because CP and BG went down, we can't truly say it didn't: JG averaged 10 ppg on 46% shooting in the playoffs. To not go for it would have been the real mistake. It would have thrown away the year, what turned out to be the next to last of the CP/BG era, the greatest era in team history.


As for knucklehead Lance, I don't think Doc's ever thrown anyone under the bus to the media, not even Dud or Tatty Matty, who have savaged him. I think he HAD to go after he started misbehaving again, and his lapses and lack of effort on D when unhappy about not getting the ball were cancerous to a disciplined team with a Chris Paul on it. Dumping him was also a long-term move, needing to show CP and BG we were serious about winning now.

[esqtvd]

WTF
the Jeff Green pick is peanuts

genius Ainge did his best to dynamite the whole thing
and Pat Riley deserves a smack upside the head too

...if Charlotte accepted Boston’s draft-night offer in 2015.

Wanting to get Justise Winslow, the Celtics reportedly offered six picks – including four potential first-rounders – for the No. 9 pick. The Hornets rejected the deal and took Frank Kaminsky, which has earned them plenty of criticism ever since.

But maybe we should save some admonishment for the Pistons (who drafted Stanley Johnson No. 8) and Heat (who drafted Winslow No. 10). Apparently, they also received Boston’s walloping offer.

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/05/18/report-celtics-offered-monster-trade-package-for-justise-winslow-to-pistons-and-heat-not-just-hornets/

[TucsonClip]

Jeff is starting right now in the conference finals
not great but not the disaster he's cracked up to be

I think he's been pretty awful.

[esqtvd]

Jeff is starting right now in the conference finals
not great but not the disaster he's cracked up to be

I think he's been pretty awful.

His numbers aren't, and they were better [let's say more passable ] with the Clips. Again, in the Clipper equation--and in the Cavs' for that matter--first of all you have to factor in who else would be getting those minutes [Luc, Jamal or Austin].

Despite all the keening, we could well be talking about it only costing us a 2nd-round pick. Every longshot you play that doesn't come in isn't necessarily a failure. The real failure is refusing to play longshots, playing it safe.

[Quake Griffin]

He's started one game in these playoffs.

Game 1 against the Pacers.
Am I missing something?

[esqtvd]

He's started one game in these playoffs.

Game 1 against the Pacers.
Am I missing something?

Thanks for the correction. However, he's still getting 21 mpg; with the Clips he got 26 mpg both in the regular season and in the playoffs.

The thesis stands.