Almost off-season discussion! Trades/Free Agency Ep. 9

[Worst_to_First]

If Ayton's "floor" was really a hyper athletic version of a future hall of famer then he would be the consensus #1 andwe wouldn't have this contentious debate right now

You underestimate Doncic.

[TheFire]

Young stars I would have no problem trading the number 1 pick for:
1. Davis
2. Greek Freak
3. Jokic
4. KAT
5. Embiid

However, it seems highly unlikely it will happen, and I would assume the franchise would want to use their first ever number 1 overall pick. I'm more interested to see if we're going to package #16, some of next year's picks, and one one of Bender/Chriss for an established player. Management is set on being competitive this year, and adding Doncic/Ayton alone will not do it.

[BobbieL]

Young stars I would have no problem trading the number 1 pick for:
1. Davis
2. Greek Freak
3. Jokic
4. KAT
5. Embiid

However, it seems highly unlikely it will happen, and I would assume the franchise would want to use their first ever number 1 overall pick. I'm more interested to see if we're going to package #16, some of next year's picks, and one one of Bender/Chriss for an established player. Management is set on being competitive this year, and adding Doncic/Ayton alone will not do it.

I agree that with cap space, future firsts and possibly young contracts like Bender, Chriss, even Ulis and Wiliams (not guaranteed) - the Suns could make trades pre 7/1 like the Jazz did for Rubio last year; or like the Rockets did for Paul. I am not sure the market for Dudley &/or Chandler either but maybe one of those players can be moved to better use their salary as well.

[bigfoot]

Doncic or Ayton
It’s a win win argument

The bigger question and perhaps more pivotal decision is what FA we acquire to round out the roster. Ayton would certainly require a PG .... Doncic a big

I like the thought of Doncic + Capella or Randle .... though both could be matched

If Sarver is boner-ing for the play offs, you have to lean towards Luka. He’s ready

I also think Bender is destined to be a stretch 5 if he amounts to anything

Actually I like the idea of Doncic and Randle. Randle is a freaking beast down low.

[bigfoot]

Thibs defensive philosophy is archaic with the way the league has changed. Towns was a much better defender in college. That's one thing we have to go by.

Towns isn't getting traded anyway.

Well, Ayton can’t be worse than Towns on D in the pros.

Could’ve said the same thing about Kawhi not getting traded not too long ago.

Ayton is a marvel on offense, in a way Towns was not in college. No one was doing this in college. Embiid, AD, Shaq - no one had this skill set on offense in college.

Sign me up.

I think that’s what people keep missing. The guy is new to the game and doing all of the things he does at 19?!? He is gonna get better.....

Love Doncic and I understand if we drafted him, however, I’d be soooo disappointed.

Chambers made a point about putting the other team in foul trouble. Also, what about when your shot isn’t falling and you can just pick and roll, throw it to the post or face-up depending on the defense and defender.

Dude has every move. And he isn’t slow with the ball either. Decisive decision making.

The pick-n-roll sounds easy with Ayton except you have to realize the decision making is on the ball handler. We watched as Eric "F-ing" Bledsoe was unable to run an effective P-n-R with Tyson Chandler who is one of the best rollers in the league. Booker could do it because of his size. Same thing with Doncic. The key is having someone (e.g., Nash, Booker, Doncic) with a high enough basketball IQ, vision, and passing skills to utilize the roll man properly. Plus they have to be a reliable shooter. Just having Ayton isn't enough. That is why Capela is so good because both Harden and Paul are masters at running the pick-n-roll and can shoot.

[JMac1]

Well, Ayton can’t be worse than Towns on D in the pros.

Could’ve said the same thing about Kawhi not getting traded not too long ago.

Ayton is a marvel on offense, in a way Towns was not in college. No one was doing this in college. Embiid, AD, Shaq - no one had this skill set on offense in college.

Sign me up.

I think that’s what people keep missing. The guy is new to the game and doing all of the things he does at 19?!? He is gonna get better.....

Love Doncic and I understand if we drafted him, however, I’d be soooo disappointed.

Chambers made a point about putting the other team in foul trouble. Also, what about when your shot isn’t falling and you can just pick and roll, throw it to the post or face-up depending on the defense and defender.

Dude has every move. And he isn’t slow with the ball either. Decisive decision making.

The pick-n-roll sounds easy with Ayton except you have to realize the decision making is on the ball handler. We watched as Eric "F-ing" Bledsoe was unable to run an effective P-n-R with Tyson Chandler who is one of the best rollers in the league. Booker could do it because of his size. Same thing with Doncic. The key is having someone (e.g., Nash, Booker, Doncic) with a high enough basketball IQ, vision, and passing skills to utilize the roll man properly. Plus they have to be a reliable shooter. Just having Ayton isn't enough. That is why Capela is so good because both Harden and Paul are masters at running the pick-n-roll and can shoot.

Fortunately for us, we have Booker and JJ who look damn good at doing it. Don’t forget Nash became a master in his early 30’s.

[sunsbg]

JJ expecially has shown he is willing to feed the bigs. I expect he will build a great chemistry with Ayton.

[bigfoot]

I think that’s what people keep missing. The guy is new to the game and doing all of the things he does at 19?!? He is gonna get better.....

Love Doncic and I understand if we drafted him, however, I’d be soooo disappointed.

Chambers made a point about putting the other team in foul trouble. Also, what about when your shot isn’t falling and you can just pick and roll, throw it to the post or face-up depending on the defense and defender.

Dude has every move. And he isn’t slow with the ball either. Decisive decision making.

The pick-n-roll sounds easy with Ayton except you have to realize the decision making is on the ball handler. We watched as Eric "F-ing" Bledsoe was unable to run an effective P-n-R with Tyson Chandler who is one of the best rollers in the league. Booker could do it because of his size. Same thing with Doncic. The key is having someone (e.g., Nash, Booker, Doncic) with a high enough basketball IQ, vision, and passing skills to utilize the roll man properly. Plus they have to be a reliable shooter. Just having Ayton isn't enough. That is why Capela is so good because both Harden and Paul are masters at running the pick-n-roll and can shoot.

Fortunately for us, we have Booker and JJ who look damn good at doing it. Don’t forget Nash became a master in his early 30’s.

Booker yes, Jackson not so much. He's more of an Iso player. His passing and vision are no where close to Doncic. Really Jackson was on par with Warren in terms of usage versus assist percentage. Once either Warren or Jackson get the ball they are more inclined to drive to the bucket or shoot instead of pass. Check the advanced stats.

[bigfoot]

JJ expecially has shown he is willing to feed the bigs. I expect he will build a great chemistry with Ayton.

Again check JJ's advanced stats for assist percentage. It is not very good, almost as bad as Warren. Neither are visionary passers.

[JMac1]

The pick-n-roll sounds easy with Ayton except you have to realize the decision making is on the ball handler. We watched as Eric "F-ing" Bledsoe was unable to run an effective P-n-R with Tyson Chandler who is one of the best rollers in the league. Booker could do it because of his size. Same thing with Doncic. The key is having someone (e.g., Nash, Booker, Doncic) with a high enough basketball IQ, vision, and passing skills to utilize the roll man properly. Plus they have to be a reliable shooter. Just having Ayton isn't enough. That is why Capela is so good because both Harden and Paul are masters at running the pick-n-roll and can shoot.

Fortunately for us, we have Booker and JJ who look damn good at doing it. Don’t forget Nash became a master in his early 30’s.

Booker yes, Jackson not so much. He's more of an Iso player. His passing and vision are no where close to Doncic. Really Jackson was on par with Warren in terms of usage versus assist percentage. Once either Warren or Jackson get the ball they are more inclined to drive to the bucket or shoot instead of pass. Check the advanced stats.

Watch on YouTube

1:20 and 2:08

Also if you have the Euro you don’t have Ayton. So comparing Josh’s passing to the Euro is irrelevant. Also don’t forget, when Josh was ISO crazy, Booker And Chandler and TJ weren’t passing opinions for him. If you forgot that’s ok

[sunsbg]

JJ expecially has shown he is willing to feed the bigs. I expect he will build a great chemistry with Ayton.

Again check JJ's advanced stats for assist percentage. It is not very good, almost as bad as Warren. Neither are visionary passers.

I will take the eye test with a young player on a bad team, rather than advanced stats.

[bigfoot]

Fortunately for us, we have Booker and JJ who look damn good at doing it. Don’t forget Nash became a master in his early 30’s.

Booker yes, Jackson not so much. He's more of an Iso player. His passing and vision are no where close to Doncic. Really Jackson was on par with Warren in terms of usage versus assist percentage. Once either Warren or Jackson get the ball they are more inclined to drive to the bucket or shoot instead of pass. Check the advanced stats.

Watch on YouTube

1:20 and 2:08

Also if you have the Euro you don’t have Ayton. So comparing Josh’s passing to the Euro is irrelevant. Also don’t forget, when Josh was ISO crazy, Booker And Chandler and TJ weren’t passing opinions for him. If you forgot that’s ok

But the pick-n-roll with Bender, Chris, Len, and Williams should always be an option. Again the video shows only one assist by Jackson out of the pick and roll and it wasn't even to the roll man.

[dremill24]

JJ expecially has shown he is willing to feed the bigs. I expect he will build a great chemistry with Ayton.

Again check JJ's advanced stats for assist percentage. It is not very good, almost as bad as Warren. Neither are visionary passers.

I will take the eye test with a young player on a bad team, rather than advanced stats.

I don’t think the eye test helps the argument either.

He could very well become a good playmaker/PnR navigator/passer, as he or any young can can improve at most things, but calling it a strength at this point for him looks to me like a college narrative that hasn’t translated.

[blee732]

Doncic or Ayton
It’s a win win argument

The bigger question and perhaps more pivotal decision is what FA we acquire to round out the roster. Ayton would certainly require a PG .... Doncic a big

I like the thought of Doncic + Capella or Randle .... though both could be matched

If Sarver is boner-ing for the play offs, you have to lean towards Luka. He’s ready

I also think Bender is destined to be a stretch 5 if he amounts to anything

Actually I like the idea of Doncic and Randle. Randle is a freaking beast down low.

Randle's an underrated passer as well, I think he'd do well in Koko's offense. More realistic to get him at a decent contract (12-14M per?) than Capela with a near-max/max offer. The Lakers are even more incentivized than the Rockets to not to have their cap space locked up.

I also wouldn't mind Ayton+Randle if the team thinks Payton can elevate his game. Neither Bender nor Chriss have proven they're close to being quality starters and would be better off playing against bench players for now.

[JMac1]

Booker yes, Jackson not so much. He's more of an Iso player. His passing and vision are no where close to Doncic. Really Jackson was on par with Warren in terms of usage versus assist percentage. Once either Warren or Jackson get the ball they are more inclined to drive to the bucket or shoot instead of pass. Check the advanced stats.

Watch on YouTube

1:20 and 2:08

Also if you have the Euro you don’t have Ayton. So comparing Josh’s passing to the Euro is irrelevant. Also don’t forget, when Josh was ISO crazy, Booker And Chandler and TJ weren’t passing opinions for him. If you forgot that’s ok

But the pick-n-roll with Bender, Chris, Len, and Williams should always be an option. Again the video shows only one assist by Jackson out of the pick and roll and it wasn't even to the roll man.

1. There were two passes. Doesn’t have to be pick and roll to show that he can pass.
2. He had plenty of lob passes on pick and rolls. I shouldn’t have to put up a video to show you that.
3. Point isn’t JJ is an effective pick and roll guy. Doesn’t have to be CP3, just effective to open other things up.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Doncic or Ayton
It’s a win win argument

The bigger question and perhaps more pivotal decision is what FA we acquire to round out the roster. Ayton would certainly require a PG .... Doncic a big

I like the thought of Doncic + Capella or Randle .... though both could be matched

If Sarver is boner-ing for the play offs, you have to lean towards Luka. He’s ready

I also think Bender is destined to be a stretch 5 if he amounts to anything

Actually I like the idea of Doncic and Randle. Randle is a freaking beast down low.

Randle's an underrated passer as well, I think he'd do well in Koko's offense. More realistic to get him at a decent contract (12-14M per?) than Capela with a near-max/max offer. The Lakers are even more incentivized than the Rockets to not to have their cap space locked up.

I also wouldn't mind Ayton+Randle if the team thinks Payton can elevate his game. Neither Bender nor Chriss have proven they're close to being quality starters and would be better off playing against bench players for now.

For a lot of the reasons stated above, I have Randle at or near the top of my FA wish list, ahead of Gordon at the same money. Don't know about Randle's fit with Bender or Chriss, though. Not sure what kind of C would work well next to Julius... Bamba/Robinson?

Speaking of which, did you guys see that LA gave Robinson a promise at 25? Us drafting Ayton and LA grabbing Robinson would be a nightmare for me. Until I watched Ayton thoroughly destroy Robinson, I would worry that we took the worse of the two. That's just how this LA-PHX thing has worked historically.

[sunsbg]

Again check JJ's advanced stats for assist percentage. It is not very good, almost as bad as Warren. Neither are visionary passers.

I will take the eye test with a young player on a bad team, rather than advanced stats.

I don’t think the eye test helps the argument either.

He could very well become a good playmaker/PnR navigator/passer, as he or any young can can improve at most things, but calling it a strength at this point for him looks to me like a college narrative that hasn’t translated.

It didn't translate probably because the Suns ran a worse offense than what they used in Kansas. I'm waiting to see how JJ and Bender do in a real offense, which Kokoskov will hopefully implement.

[bwgood77]

Actually I like the idea of Doncic and Randle. Randle is a freaking beast down low.

Randle's an underrated passer as well, I think he'd do well in Koko's offense. More realistic to get him at a decent contract (12-14M per?) than Capela with a near-max/max offer. The Lakers are even more incentivized than the Rockets to not to have their cap space locked up.

I also wouldn't mind Ayton+Randle if the team thinks Payton can elevate his game. Neither Bender nor Chriss have proven they're close to being quality starters and would be better off playing against bench players for now.

For a lot of the reasons stated above, I have Randle at or near the top of my FA wish list, ahead of Gordon at the same money. Don't know about Randle's fit with Bender or Chriss, though. Not sure what kind of C would work well next to Julius... Bamba/Robinson?

Speaking of which, did you guys see that LA gave Robinson a promise at 25? Us drafting Ayton and LA grabbing Robinson would be a nightmare for me. Until I watched Ayton thoroughly destroy Robinson, I would worry that we took the worse of the two. That's just how this LA-PHX thing has worked historically.

You'd want Randle at PF next to another traditional big? I think if you have Randle you NEED a guy that can already stretch the floor all the time. He worked well this season because he was playing with Lopez. If you have a big that is a great rebounder and plays more inside, I don't think Randle is a good fit. He's be a good fit with someone like JJJ.

[bigfoot]

Randle's an underrated passer as well, I think he'd do well in Koko's offense. More realistic to get him at a decent contract (12-14M per?) than Capela with a near-max/max offer. The Lakers are even more incentivized than the Rockets to not to have their cap space locked up.

I also wouldn't mind Ayton+Randle if the team thinks Payton can elevate his game. Neither Bender nor Chriss have proven they're close to being quality starters and would be better off playing against bench players for now.

For a lot of the reasons stated above, I have Randle at or near the top of my FA wish list, ahead of Gordon at the same money. Don't know about Randle's fit with Bender or Chriss, though. Not sure what kind of C would work well next to Julius... Bamba/Robinson?

Speaking of which, did you guys see that LA gave Robinson a promise at 25? Us drafting Ayton and LA grabbing Robinson would be a nightmare for me. Until I watched Ayton thoroughly destroy Robinson, I would worry that we took the worse of the two. That's just how this LA-PHX thing has worked historically.

You'd want Randle at PF next to another traditional big? I think if you have Randle you NEED a guy that can already stretch the floor all the time. He worked well this season because he was playing with Lopez. If you have a big that is a great rebounder and plays more inside, I don't think Randle is a good fit. He's be a good fit with someone like JJJ.

No I'd want Randle at C where he played over half his time and dominated for the Lakers this season.

Doncic
Booker
Jackson
Bender
Randle

I think Randle as a wide body can handle the pick and roll with Booker and Doncic. He is also a very good passer. He averaged 16p/8r/2.8a this season

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

For a lot of the reasons stated above, I have Randle at or near the top of my FA wish list, ahead of Gordon at the same money. Don't know about Randle's fit with Bender or Chriss, though. Not sure what kind of C would work well next to Julius... Bamba/Robinson?

Speaking of which, did you guys see that LA gave Robinson a promise at 25? Us drafting Ayton and LA grabbing Robinson would be a nightmare for me. Until I watched Ayton thoroughly destroy Robinson, I would worry that we took the worse of the two. That's just how this LA-PHX thing has worked historically.

You'd want Randle at PF next to another traditional big? I think if you have Randle you NEED a guy that can already stretch the floor all the time. He worked well this season because he was playing with Lopez. If you have a big that is a great rebounder and plays more inside, I don't think Randle is a good fit. He's be a good fit with someone like JJJ.

No I'd want Randle at C where he played over half his time and dominated for the Lakers this season.

Doncic
Booker
Jackson
Bender
Randle

I think Randle as a wide body can handle the pick and roll with Booker and Doncic. He is also a very good passer. He averaged 16p/8r/2.8a this season

I'm with you re offense, but the question is defense. No rim protectors in that line-up. Weak rebounding. I think that overall, we'd be disappointed by the results.

But while I don't think that crew would be great as a SL, I do think they could all work as part of the same rotation. Add a true rim protector and a defensive PG to that five plus Warren (plus an energy combo guard and a flamethrower off the bench), and I think Koko would have a lot of excellent ingredients to cook with.

How much will Koko miss Rudy when he's drawing up his defensive schemes? Wonder what he thinks of Mo Bamba. Probably doesn't matter much, because Doncic > Bamba, for sure, right?

If Doncic > Bamba and Bamba = Ayton, then Doncic > Ayton. Right?

I would love for Ayton to kill it in the pre-draft process, but even then, this could be a situation where we're deciding between Olajuwon and Jordan, with Drexler already on the roster (combining things a bit here, I know). Would that make Bamba Sam Bowie? Does history "rhyme" the way stories do?