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The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

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Ayton vs Doncic, Who you picking?

Ayton all the way!
109
53%
Definitely Doncic!
98
47%
 
Total votes: 207

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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#501 » by 76ciology » Sun May 20, 2018 4:48 pm

Qwigglez wrote:So I see a lot of the pro-Doncic guys using the current teams in the Conference Finals as a reason why Ayton can't be successful because it doesn't follow the trend of versatile positionless players. I'm not sure I completely agree. Those teams (minus Boston) have future HOFers on their squad. Surround dominant bigs with versatile players could also be a recipe for success, that these teams may not be able to match. I would say the Pelicans sweeping the Blazers was a complete surprise, and the Sixers possibly could do better if they had surrounded Embiid with 3&D players. I don't feel KAT was properly utilized in the playoffs and that's likely the reason he is having issues with the Wolves franchise.


From what I saw (im very analytic on each one of those games and based on my two cents. Tatum’s way of scoring was more efficient than Embiid, which made my case stronger against overpaying for bigs.

My saving grace on Biid was he was able to play modern D in the entire series except for G1. He covered multiple celts players on offense, running from the top of the key from Horford to closing out on Rozier. It really exhausted him. While offensively, Sixers realized that Biid’s face-up perimeter game was more effective (even Brett talked about this). Because if you pound it inside, the refs wont blow the whistle because you are initiating the contact and wont favor you for they wont like the game to trend into physical and low scoring games.

The only way a post heavy offense works is if you have elite D. That means very good switchable and rim protecting wings and C. You find your way to lessen the ppp(points per possession) on those drives that its lesser than the points generated on the post. And I don’t know how you can play elite D with booker and ayton.

Drives > Post. I dont want to flood your board but I talked about this in my previous post.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#502 » by 76ciology » Sun May 20, 2018 4:55 pm

bigfoot wrote:More food for thought ... in the past 20 years these players have been the number 1 draft picks as centers

Michael Olowokandi
Kwame Brown
Yao Ming
Dwight Howard
Andrew Bogut
Andrea Bargnani
Greg Oden
Anthony Davis
Karl-Anthony Towns

of those nine picks only four have done anything decent (Ming, Howard, Davis, and KAT). Ming and Oden had short careers because of injury.

The other eleven picks over that last 20 years have been

Elton Brand
Keyon Martin
Lebron James
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Anthony Bennett
Andrew Wiggins
Ben Simmons
Markelle Fultz

Really only Bennett has been a bust. Also you may notice I cut out players like Duncan and Robinson (pre-1998), but both of them were four year players ... not the one-and-dones we have to evaluate now-a-days.


Drafting Cs are tough because scouts like to say how they can just dominate for being bigger than their competition. Then you factor in zone D where defense can be hidden. Then you factor in the lack of atleast 7’++ wingspan and 9’ standing reach pool of centers than every team deploys when they face post scorers. So if you can’t be dominant on D in the collegiate level, it’s high likely you wont be good on D in the NBA. And as a C who aren’t good on D, you’re the second lowest of the low in the hierarchy of players next to undersized guards who cant shoot.

I feel doncic plays with a more NBA style/level of competition. But I’m really skeptical with how good he can finish around the rim.

I dont know why scouts want to make it complicated. Just put 90% value on a C based on his team defense/rim protection and just put 90% value on a G based on his offense/shooting.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#503 » by sunsbum » Sun May 20, 2018 4:56 pm

76ciology wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:So I see a lot of the pro-Doncic guys using the current teams in the Conference Finals as a reason why Ayton can't be successful because it doesn't follow the trend of versatile positionless players. I'm not sure I completely agree. Those teams (minus Boston) have future HOFers on their squad. Surround dominant bigs with versatile players could also be a recipe for success, that these teams may not be able to match. I would say the Pelicans sweeping the Blazers was a complete surprise, and the Sixers possibly could do better if they had surrounded Embiid with 3&D players. I don't feel KAT was properly utilized in the playoffs and that's likely the reason he is having issues with the Wolves franchise.


From what I saw (im very analytic on each one of those games and based on my two cents. Tatum’s way of scoring was more efficient than Embiid, which made my case stronger against overpaying for bigs.

My saving grace on Biid was he was able to play modern D in the entire series except for G1. He covered multiple celts players on offense, running from the top of the key from Horford to closing out on Rozier. It really exhausted him. While offensively, Sixers realized that Biid’s face-up perimeter game was more effective (even Brett talked about this). Because if you pound it inside, the refs wont blow the whistle because you are initiating the contact and wont favor you for they wont like the game to trend into physical and low scoring games.

The only way a post heavy offense works is if you have elite D. That means very good switchable and rim protecting wings and C. You find your way to lessen the ppp(points per possession) on those drives that its lesser than the points generated on the post. And I don’t know how you can play elite D with booker and ayton.

Drives > Post. I dont want to flood your board but I talked about this in my previous post.


Great posts btw, thanks for stopping by.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#504 » by 76ciology » Sun May 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Just draft Doncic then pay Nerlens.

Doncic
Booker
JJ
Chriss or Bender
Noel
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#505 » by 76ciology » Sun May 20, 2018 5:00 pm

sunsbum wrote:
76ciology wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:So I see a lot of the pro-Doncic guys using the current teams in the Conference Finals as a reason why Ayton can't be successful because it doesn't follow the trend of versatile positionless players. I'm not sure I completely agree. Those teams (minus Boston) have future HOFers on their squad. Surround dominant bigs with versatile players could also be a recipe for success, that these teams may not be able to match. I would say the Pelicans sweeping the Blazers was a complete surprise, and the Sixers possibly could do better if they had surrounded Embiid with 3&D players. I don't feel KAT was properly utilized in the playoffs and that's likely the reason he is having issues with the Wolves franchise.


From what I saw (im very analytic on each one of those games and based on my two cents. Tatum’s way of scoring was more efficient than Embiid, which made my case stronger against overpaying for bigs.

My saving grace on Biid was he was able to play modern D in the entire series except for G1. He covered multiple celts players on offense, running from the top of the key from Horford to closing out on Rozier. It really exhausted him. While offensively, Sixers realized that Biid’s face-up perimeter game was more effective (even Brett talked about this). Because if you pound it inside, the refs wont blow the whistle because you are initiating the contact and wont favor you for they wont like the game to trend into physical and low scoring games.

The only way a post heavy offense works is if you have elite D. That means very good switchable and rim protecting wings and C. You find your way to lessen the ppp(points per possession) on those drives that its lesser than the points generated on the post. And I don’t know how you can play elite D with booker and ayton.

Drives > Post. I dont want to flood your board but I talked about this in my previous post.


Great posts btw, thanks for stopping by.


Thanks! Just basing it on my experiences and i miss this time of the year for Sixers. Now were talking about finding ways to fire colangelo and dreaming of Kawhi and LeBron, both like broken records.

Anyway, thanks again. I dont like arguing with people so dont worry i wont troll
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#506 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun May 20, 2018 5:23 pm

Fo-Real wrote:Tired of seeing post about how Doncic smartest **** person on Earth, and Ayton is some mindless athletic grunt.... YOU KNOW ****!!!! BORDERLINE RACIST, don't care how that sits with you!!!!


Don't mind people calling out racism if the claim makes sense, but here I don't get it. If Bamba were 5-10 instead of 7-1, I have little doubt he'd at least go to grad school. That guy has intellectual gifts. Obviously Doncic does too (at least on the court). Haven't watched a Luka interview. Nothing I've seen from Ayton demonstrates tremendous mental acuity - but basketball IQ is different from normal intelligence. Kanye may be a musical genius, but he's also a real-world moron. Contrast with Lebron, who is not only brilliant on the court, but obviously a very smart human being overall.

FWIW, that "high school" he and Bagley attended together was in partnership with a notorious Phoenix charter school fraudster. Whatever time those two spent there - which was only a year - they learned absolutely zero, I can assure you of that. (I would know, I worked there briefly, before they attended.)
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#507 » by Mjee » Sun May 20, 2018 5:25 pm

Who guards point guards if we draft Doncic !?

I don’t want to see another season of bender and Chriss as our bigs together. Tyson is 100 years old. Capela is getting a max from Houston, so forget about him.

Ayton is a generational talent that fills a positional need
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#508 » by sunsbg » Sun May 20, 2018 5:51 pm

Euroleague final starts in 10 mins for those interested.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#509 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun May 20, 2018 5:54 pm

Mjeezy2006 wrote:Who guards point guards if we draft Doncic !?

I don’t want to see another season of bender and Chriss as our bigs together. Tyson is 100 years old. Capela is getting a max from Houston, so forget about him.

Ayton is a generational talent that fills a positional need


I think we'd be forced to put Booker/Jackson/Doncic at positions 2-4 on defense. If you draft Jevon Carter at 31, you'll have one of the best PG defenders in the league right off the bat, and with Harrison as his back-up, we'd have PG defense when we want it.

The real issue becomes interior D. You'd need to start a real beast at the C just to survive. No shot blocking from your 4. Randle would eat Doncic alive underneath. As I've said before, the fit isn't perfect.

The real question is here, do we want to roll the dice on a guy who could be the perfect fit and the best C this team has ever had (by a wide margin), or do we want to make the safe pick, who is probably BPA, even if the fit is awkward?

If you grab Doncic 1, you then look to move up for Bamba, Wendell Carter or Robert Williams, or roll the dice on Mitchell Robinson at 16. Grab Jevon Carter at 31. Then go sign Randle.

I think a great coach could do wonders with a crew like that. It would just take a lot of creativity to make it work defensively. Then again, if Ayton doesn't have it defensively, then no amount of coaching in the world would be able to fix it. Then again again, if Ayton improves defensively at a rate similar to that at which Olajuwon improved offensively at his age, we'd be making a big mistake passing him up.

Hard to know if Doncic and Ayton's ceilings are very far apart. But in terms of floor, it's clear that Doncic >>>>> Ayton. Don't really have enough arrows to put there, really. I have a hard time seeing how Doncic doesn't become an all-star in the NBA.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#510 » by bigfoot » Sun May 20, 2018 6:05 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
Mjeezy2006 wrote:Who guards point guards if we draft Doncic !?

I don’t want to see another season of bender and Chriss as our bigs together. Tyson is 100 years old. Capela is getting a max from Houston, so forget about him.

Ayton is a generational talent that fills a positional need


I think we'd be forced to put Booker/Jackson/Doncic at positions 2-4 on defense. If you draft Jevon Carter at 31, you'll have one of the best PG defenders in the league right off the bat, and with Harrison as his back-up, we'd have PG defense when we want it.

The real issue becomes interior D. You'd need to start a real beast at the C just to survive. No shot blocking from your 4. Randle would eat Doncic alive underneath. As I've said before, the fit isn't perfect.

The real question is here, do we want to roll the dice on a guy who could be the perfect fit and the best C this team has ever had (by a wide margin), or do we want to make the safe pick, who is probably BPA, even if the fit is awkward?

If you grab Ayton 1, you then look to move up for Bamba, Wendell Carter or Robert Williams, or roll the dice on Mitchell Robinson at 16. Grab Jevon Carter at 31. Then go sign Randle.

I think a great coach could do wonders with a crew like that. It would just take a lot of creativity to make it work defensively. Then again, if Ayton doesn't have it defensively, then no amount of coaching in the world would be able to fix it. Then again again, if Ayton improves defensively at a rate similar to that at which Olajuwon improved offensively at his age, we'd be making a big mistake passing him up.

Hard to know if Doncic and Ayton's ceilings are very far apart. But in terms of floor, it's clear that Doncic >>>>> Ayton. Don't really have enough arrows to put there, really. I have a hard time seeing how Doncic doesn't become an all-star in the NBA.


Too me you grab the best player (Doncic) because it isn't clear yet that Josh Jackson is the real deal. If his shot never comes around then he can play Marcus Smart-like defense on the opposing teams PG.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#511 » by gaspar » Sun May 20, 2018 6:08 pm

All these small point guards would have to guard one of Doncic/Booker/Jackson too. There would be a mouse in the house in the Suns favor on every possession.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#512 » by bigfoot » Sun May 20, 2018 6:11 pm

gaspar wrote:All these small point guards would have to guard one of Doncic/Booker/Jackson too. There would be a mouse in the house in the Suns favor on every possession.


Yeah Curry would be abused by any of the three. Klay would have a tough assignment on Doncic too.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#513 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun May 20, 2018 6:14 pm

bigfoot wrote:
gaspar wrote:All these small point guards would have to guard one of Doncic/Booker/Jackson too. There would be a mouse in the house in the Suns favor on every possession.


Yeah Curry would be abused by any of the three. Klay would have a tough assignment on Doncic too.


It's true. If we went Booker/Jackson/Doncic at 1-3, Booker and Jackson would be guarding the 1. It's my impression that Booker does a better job guarding 1s than 2s in general. But none of them are great PG defenders. You'd need a couple guys who can come in off the bench and press the point for much of the game.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#514 » by TheLogician » Sun May 20, 2018 6:19 pm

Doncic stands around a lot for a guy who's supposedly a playmaker. And that iso air ball he put up would have been tipped and stolen by someone like KD.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#515 » by DirtyDez » Sun May 20, 2018 6:29 pm

MathiasPW wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/


Roy Hibbert had cinder blocks for feet and would would get zero rebounds in a playoff game. That’s why he’s out of the league.
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Re: RE: Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#516 » by MathiasPW » Sun May 20, 2018 6:34 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
MathiasPW wrote:https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-nba-abandoned-roy-hibbert/


Roy Hibbert had cinder blocks for feet and would would get zero rebounds in a playoff game. That’s why he’s out of the league.
I obviously didn't post this because of Roy Hibbert's side of the argument.
I posted this because of the analysis of how the NBA changed and how it poses a problem for traditional bigs. Some of the things mentioned are relevant for Aytons' assessment.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#517 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 6:39 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
gaspar wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Yeah there was, his name was Karl-Anthony Towns.

Spoiler:
ImageImage


I wonder what happened to that guy.

BS. In college KAT was 10 times better on defense than Ayton. Actually defense was one of his main strengths entering the league.


Really? Weird that NBAdraft.net has his defense rated the same as Aytons (Who is supposedly not a good defender).

The best draft site at the time was DraftExpress and their top knock on him was defense.



While he was known as a decent shot blocker, he was bleh in the steals department, and would get over aggressive trying to block whatever ho could to a point that he would rack up the fouls and forced to be sat. Is it a good defender because he tried and tried hard even though he kept fouling all the time? :dontknow:


Towns was a much better defender in college whether you go by the eye test or by any statistical measure. I mean it's all been posted. DPIPM, DBPM, etc....it's not even close.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#518 » by DirtyDez » Sun May 20, 2018 6:46 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
gaspar wrote:BS. In college KAT was 10 times better on defense than Ayton. Actually defense was one of his main strengths entering the league.


Really? Weird that NBAdraft.net has his defense rated the same as Aytons (Who is supposedly not a good defender).

The best draft site at the time was DraftExpress and their top knock on him was defense.



While he was known as a decent shot blocker, he was bleh in the steals department, and would get over aggressive trying to block whatever ho could to a point that he would rack up the fouls and forced to be sat. Is it a good defender because he tried and tried hard even though he kept fouling all the time? :dontknow:


Towns was a much better defender in college whether you go by the eye test or by any statistical measure. I mean it's all been posted. DPIPM, DBPM, etc....it's not even close.


Crazy that he was 7th in minutes on that team (Booker 6th, Ulis 4th).
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#519 » by TheLogician » Sun May 20, 2018 6:49 pm

Yeah, hard to imagine a more explosive, taller, and longer version of KAT being better than KAT.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#520 » by bigfoot » Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 pm

Our fans need to go to some Euroleague games to learn how to support their team.

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