The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[bigfoot]

Yeah, hard to imagine a more explosive, taller, and longer version of KAT being better than KAT.

UofA homerism at it's finest

[Revived]

All these small point guards would have to guard one of Doncic/Booker/Jackson too. There would be a mouse in the house in the Suns favor on every possession.

Yeah Curry would be abused by any of the three. Klay would have a tough assignment on Doncic too.

It's true. If we went Booker/Jackson/Doncic at 1-3, Booker and Jackson would be guarding the 1. It's my impression that Booker does a better job guarding 1s than 2s in general. But none of them are great PG defenders. You'd need a couple guys who can come in off the bench and press the point for much of the game.

Is there anyone in the NBA that’s a great PG defender? Like honestly, no matter how good the defender is at PG, the better PGs will get their #s in todays league.

PG is the only position that I think defense can be overrated at.

[bwgood77]

You guys are talking about an Ayton-Booker PnR.. On paper it's great but when I see Ayton seting those picks I have to say I'm not impressed. Idon't know if it's a real issue and how fixable it is... But it really bothers how soft he is when he is setting that pick

Yeah, that really bothered me. Especially after watching Bender do it the same way. I mean Ayton is a physical beast and he looks so tentative when doing that.

[Revived]

So I see a lot of the pro-Doncic guys using the current teams in the Conference Finals as a reason why Ayton can't be successful because it doesn't follow the trend of versatile positionless players. I'm not sure I completely agree. Those teams (minus Boston) have future HOFers on their squad. Surround dominant bigs with versatile players could also be a recipe for success, that these teams may not be able to match. I would say the Pelicans sweeping the Blazers was a complete surprise, and the Sixers possibly could do better if they had surrounded Embiid with 3&D players. I don't feel KAT was properly utilized in the playoffs and that's likely the reason he is having issues with the Wolves franchise.

From what I saw (im very analytic on each one of those games and based on my two cents. Tatum’s way of scoring was more efficient than Embiid, which made my case stronger against overpaying for bigs.

My saving grace on Biid was he was able to play modern D in the entire series except for G1. He covered multiple celts players on offense, running from the top of the key from Horford to closing out on Rozier. It really exhausted him. While offensively, Sixers realized that Biid’s face-up perimeter game was more effective (even Brett talked about this). Because if you pound it inside, the refs wont blow the whistle because you are initiating the contact and wont favor you for they wont like the game to trend into physical and low scoring games.

The only way a post heavy offense works is if you have elite D. That means very good switchable and rim protecting wings and C. You find your way to lessen the ppp(points per possession) on those drives that its lesser than the points generated on the post. And I don’t know how you can play elite D with booker and ayton.

Drives > Post. I dont want to flood your board but I talked about this in my previous post.

You’re not the flooding the board, you’re bringing a fresh outside perspective and we could use more of that here.

[bwgood77]

So I see a lot of the pro-Doncic guys using the current teams in the Conference Finals as a reason why Ayton can't be successful because it doesn't follow the trend of versatile positionless players. I'm not sure I completely agree. Those teams (minus Boston) have future HOFers on their squad. Surround dominant bigs with versatile players could also be a recipe for success, that these teams may not be able to match. I would say the Pelicans sweeping the Blazers was a complete surprise, and the Sixers possibly could do better if they had surrounded Embiid with 3&D players. I don't feel KAT was properly utilized in the playoffs and that's likely the reason he is having issues with the Wolves franchise.

From what I saw (im very analytic on each one of those games and based on my two cents. Tatum’s way of scoring was more efficient than Embiid, which made my case stronger against overpaying for bigs.

My saving grace on Biid was he was able to play modern D in the entire series except for G1. He covered multiple celts players on offense, running from the top of the key from Horford to closing out on Rozier. It really exhausted him. While offensively, Sixers realized that Biid’s face-up perimeter game was more effective (even Brett talked about this). Because if you pound it inside, the refs wont blow the whistle because you are initiating the contact and wont favor you for they wont like the game to trend into physical and low scoring games.

The only way a post heavy offense works is if you have elite D. That means very good switchable and rim protecting wings and C. You find your way to lessen the ppp(points per possession) on those drives that its lesser than the points generated on the post. And I don’t know how you can play elite D with booker and ayton.

Drives > Post. I dont want to flood your board but I talked about this in my previous post.

Yeah, Ayton would HAVE to be able to play modern D and switch on everyone in a series like that. I guess his saving grace is he likely wouldn't be in a 2nd round playoff series with that kind of pressure for quite some time if we ever got that far.

[bwgood77]

If you grab Ayton 1, you then look to move up for Bamba, Wendell Carter or Robert Williams, or roll the dice on Mitchell Robinson at 16. Grab Jevon Carter at 31. Then go sign Randle.

I think a great coach could do wonders with a crew like that. It would just take a lot of creativity to make it work defensively. Then again, if Ayton doesn't have it defensively, then no amount of coaching in the world would be able to fix it. Then again again, if Ayton improves defensively at a rate similar to that at which Olajuwon improved offensively at his age, we'd be making a big mistake passing him up.

Hard to know if Doncic and Ayton's ceilings are very far apart. But in terms of floor, it's clear that Doncic >>>>> Ayton. Don't really have enough arrows to put there, really. I have a hard time seeing how Doncic doesn't become an all-star in the NBA.

Do you mean at the beginning of this, if we grab Doncic at #1?

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Yeah Curry would be abused by any of the three. Klay would have a tough assignment on Doncic too.

It's true. If we went Booker/Jackson/Doncic at 1-3, Booker and Jackson would be guarding the 1. It's my impression that Booker does a better job guarding 1s than 2s in general. But none of them are great PG defenders. You'd need a couple guys who can come in off the bench and press the point for much of the game.

Is there anyone in the NBA that’s a great PG defender? Like honestly, no matter how good the defender is at PG, the better PGs will get their #s in todays league.

PG is the only position that I think defense can be overrated at.

I'm not with you at all, there. Smart's been such a huge difference make with his perimeter D. Bradley is the best defender I've seen on Booker. Ulis was our most deleterious player last year because he could not contest shots, get through screens or switch. Westbrook's overall effcetiveness as a player has dropped off to an extent, IMO, these last three years, since he moved away from focusing on D and focused instead on breaking records.

Elite perimeter defense has never been more at a premium in this league, since so much offense takes place on the perimeter. The most likely hole for your perimeter D is at the 1 spot - the mouse. Not big enough to contest the shot or contain the drive, not big enough to take up space or cut off passing lanes.

I'd take a healthy Beverley over a ton of bigger name PGs - especially next to Booker, since he's not great at it, but is so good at creating offense that you can take the PG off the ball a lot more in the half court.

Every great team has defensive specialists. The 1 is the perfect ideal sport for that in our starting line-up, especially.

You and I so rarely see eye-to-eye, revived.

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

If you grab Ayton 1, you then look to move up for Bamba, Wendell Carter or Robert Williams, or roll the dice on Mitchell Robinson at 16. Grab Jevon Carter at 31. Then go sign Randle.

I think a great coach could do wonders with a crew like that. It would just take a lot of creativity to make it work defensively. Then again, if Ayton doesn't have it defensively, then no amount of coaching in the world would be able to fix it. Then again again, if Ayton improves defensively at a rate similar to that at which Olajuwon improved offensively at his age, we'd be making a big mistake passing him up.

Hard to know if Doncic and Ayton's ceilings are very far apart. But in terms of floor, it's clear that Doncic >>>>> Ayton. Don't really have enough arrows to put there, really. I have a hard time seeing how Doncic doesn't become an all-star in the NBA.

Do you mean at the beginning of this, if we grab Doncic at #1?

Yes; oops. Fixed. So used to the idea of drafting Ayton at 1, even after just a few days, that the habit is hard to fix!

[8on]

Towns being a good defender in college proves that college isn’t a good indicator. It’s not. The college game and the pro game are nothing alike.

bigfoot said Ayton’s ceiling is Kevin Love. That’s......

Klay would torch Doncic more than Doncic would torch Klay. Klay is big enough to guard Doncic, and Doncic isn’t athletic enough to get by Klay. Penetration isn’t emphasized in Euroleague. Fine, but I have no evidence to prove he could do it here, where it is a key skill.

Who can guard Ayton? Embiid and AD. That’s it.

60% shots are pretty efficient. No big man had the offensive skill of Ayton as a freshman in college. That’s enough.

You know who wasn’t a good defender coming out of college?

Shaq.

[TheLogician]

Yeah, hard to imagine a more explosive, taller, and longer version of KAT being better than KAT.

UofA homerism at it's finest

You wouldn't know a generational player if he were playing for your team. I hate ASU and I still knew Harden was a stud.

[Revived]

It's true. If we went Booker/Jackson/Doncic at 1-3, Booker and Jackson would be guarding the 1. It's my impression that Booker does a better job guarding 1s than 2s in general. But none of them are great PG defenders. You'd need a couple guys who can come in off the bench and press the point for much of the game.

Is there anyone in the NBA that’s a great PG defender? Like honestly, no matter how good the defender is at PG, the better PGs will get their #s in todays league.

PG is the only position that I think defense can be overrated at.

I'm not with you at all, there. Smart's been such a huge difference make with his perimeter D. Bradley is the best defender I've seen on Booker. Ulis was our most deleterious player last year because he could not contest shots, get through screens or switch. Westbrook's overall effcetiveness as a player has dropped off to an extent, IMO, these last three years, since he moved away from focusing on D and focused instead on breaking records.

Elite perimeter defense has never been more at a premium in this league, since so much offense takes place on the perimeter. The most likely hole for your perimeter D is at the 1 spot - the mouse. Not big enough to contest the shot or contain the drive, not big enough to take up space or cut off passing lanes.

I'd take a healthy Beverley over a ton of bigger name PGs - especially next to Booker, since he's not great at it, but is so good at creating offense that you can take the PG off the ball a lot more in the half court.

Every great team has defensive specialists. The 1 is the perfect ideal sport for that in our starting line-up, especially.

You and I so rarely see eye-to-eye, revived.

I like Beverly too and I’ve mentioned Suns trading for him too.

But let’s put it this way, do you think if the Suns had Beverly or Bradley and say we were playing the Blazers...don’t you think Lillard is still gonna get his 20/5/5 or whatever he averages? Sure his efficiency may drop a bit but not drastically imo.

Kyrie Irving and Steph Curry are the 2 starting PGs of the last 3 NBA champions...and they both play about as much defense as Booker does if not less.

It’s not a position like C or PF where defense/rim protection/ability to switch is key. Just my opinion.

[bwgood77]

Towns being a good defender in college proves that college isn’t a good indicator. It’s not. The college game and the pro game are nothing alike.

Klay would torch Doncic more than Doncic would torch Klay. Klay is big enough to guard Doncic, and Doncic isn’t athletic enough to get by Klay. Penetration isn’t emphasized in Euroleague. Fine, but I have no evidence to prove he could do it here, where it is a key skill.

Who can guard Ayton? Embiid and AD. That’s it.

60% shots are pretty efficient. No big man had the offensive skill of Ayton as a freshman in college. That’s enough.

You know who wasn’t a good defender coming out of college?

Shaq.

Man you are really starting to reach. Not sure why you keep trying to start this narrative about Doncic penetrating. He penetrates a lot and gets to the line a ton.

Shaq also had almost triple the amount of blocks and steals as a freshman than Ayton did.

[m1chal]

Rubio would be a good defender PG to put next to Booker. As for our #1 pick: we're not making playoffs next season anyways. Go for the highest potential. If it's Ayton then Elfrid is a good stopgap at PG, besides I want to see him improve under Kokoskov. If it's Doncic I'd still sign Payton, Doncic is more of a point forward than PG in the NBA.
If I were to pick today I'd go Ayton if we're sticking to consensus best players. I wonder what McD's board looks like.

[8on]

Towns being a good defender in college proves that college isn’t a good indicator. It’s not. The college game and the pro game are nothing alike.

Klay would torch Doncic more than Doncic would torch Klay. Klay is big enough to guard Doncic, and Doncic isn’t athletic enough to get by Klay. Penetration isn’t emphasized in Euroleague. Fine, but I have no evidence to prove he could do it here, where it is a key skill.

Who can guard Ayton? Embiid and AD. That’s it.

60% shots are pretty efficient. No big man had the offensive skill of Ayton as a freshman in college. That’s enough.

You know who wasn’t a good defender coming out of college?

Shaq.

Man you are really starting to reach. Not sure why you keep trying to start this narrative about Doncic penetrating. He penetrates a lot and gets to the line a ton.

Shaq also had almost triple the amount of blocks and steals as a freshman than Ayton did.

Most people wouldn’t say Shaq was a good defender in Orlando. They did make the Finals.

Doncic doesn’t get by anyone. A lot of step back jumpers. Euroleague defenders aren’t as good as NBA defenders.

You were the one who said penetration wasn’t emphasized in Euroleague. I didn’t know that until you said it.

Shaq became a much better defender as a Laker. It can be learned.

Hard to imagine any number one pick being a better scoring prospect than Ayton.

[bwgood77]

Towns being a good defender in college proves that college isn’t a good indicator. It’s not. The college game and the pro game are nothing alike.

Klay would torch Doncic more than Doncic would torch Klay. Klay is big enough to guard Doncic, and Doncic isn’t athletic enough to get by Klay. Penetration isn’t emphasized in Euroleague. Fine, but I have no evidence to prove he could do it here, where it is a key skill.

Who can guard Ayton? Embiid and AD. That’s it.

60% shots are pretty efficient. No big man had the offensive skill of Ayton as a freshman in college. That’s enough.

You know who wasn’t a good defender coming out of college?

Shaq.

Man you are really starting to reach. Not sure why you keep trying to start this narrative about Doncic penetrating. He penetrates a lot and gets to the line a ton.

Shaq also had almost triple the amount of blocks and steals as a freshman than Ayton did.

Most people wouldn’t say Shaq was a good defender in Orlando. They did make the Finals.

Doncic doesn’t get by anyone. A lot of step back jumpers. Euroleague defenders aren’t as good as NBA defenders.

You were the one who said penetration wasn’t emphasized in Euroleague. I didn’t know that until you said it.

Shaq became a much better defender as a Laker. It can be learned.

Hard to imagine any number one pick being a better scoring prospect than Ayton.

I may have said penetration isn't as easy in the euroleague with no 3 second rule and bigs always in the paint, but I've also seen Doncic do it a lot, whether he takes it to the rim, finds an open guy for a 3, or ends up at the line.

[GeraldsGreenery]

Doncic final line

15 pts 4 reb 3 ast

and a victroty to win the eruo league championship

[sunsbum]

That red head at the score table. Can we draft her?

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

The positive thing there is obviously the offense. No freshman ahead of Ayton except for Davis and Bagley. Kaminsky was obviously a senior who hit tons of 3s (he barely played as a freshman).

But of course the defense, which is what you would of expected, is the bad part. I don't know that I would have thought he would have measured THAT badly though.

I'm sure some would just say "all Sean Miller's fault" given that he and Lauri are there, even though Miller is known as a defensive coach.

But maybe there is something to that...hopefully, if we draft him. I know he played 4 and had to guard smaller guys (like RHJ did), which he would have to do a lot of anyway, and many say he is good at that, but it's still pretty obvious if you watched them that the D needs A LOT of work.

So the net impact on those doesn't end up so high on the list in the mid 5s.

Hopefully the D could improve a great deal given his measurables and athleticism. He just has to have that desire and hopefully he develops some toughness.

At least the offense is a near guarantee to be extremely solid.

[Revived]

That red head at the score table. Can we draft her?

For the Suns cheerleaders team?

[MrMiyagi]

What does O and D-PIPM even measure?