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cdubbz wrote:Curmudgeon wrote:Who would chose Sacramento over Real Madrid? In Europe the world is Doncic's oyster. It's very possible that he's pulling a Kobe.
I just drove by Sacramento today from San Francisco and was thinking to myself "I bet NBA players get so bored out here."
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
Grahf wrote:DeBlazerRiddem wrote:laika wrote:Phoenix should take Doncic. Maybe Ayton has generational athletic ability that closes the gap.
But if the NBA has taught us anything over the last 15 years it's that you take the highly skilled forward over the unskilled center every single time.
Not saying its the exact same situation or anything but Portland hears ya
Not to rub salt in an old wound, but I still believe that if Oden’s legs had been the same length and he had been able to stay healthy, he would’ve been on Durant’s level. Re-watch the NCAA championship game, OSU versus Florida. Oden played injured, he was younger than Horford and Noah who would both become elite NBA defenders, and he dominated them. People compared him to Shaq for a reason.
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.
lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
Potedon wrote:antonac wrote:I don't really understand why people are creating these weird reasons not to pick Doncic.
it's going to be harder for him to succeed than these guys because the weight of expectation? he's a 19 year old who's won every competition he's played in as a key member, he just won MVP for his team winning the euroleague. crumbling under pressure wouldn't be the first conclusion I'd draw from that.
Doncic doesn't project to be a star in the NBA, and so a problem with a lot of these overhyped Euro prospects is that don't want to work hard and prove themselves. They think what they did in their **** league overseas means something in the NBA and come in with a diva attitude.
So if there's any inkling of Doncic even thinking about staying for another year that's a huge reg flag to me. Add in his poor shot selection, lack of defined position, mediocre athleticism, poor defense, & a bad attitude all making me think someones going to waste a high pick on him.
Curmudgeon wrote:He isn't Drazen Petrovic. Petrovic could take over a game. Doncic just stood in the corner and watched Sergio Liull play basketball.
Pachinko_ wrote:Curmudgeon wrote:He isn't Drazen Petrovic. Petrovic could take over a game. Doncic just stood in the corner and watched Sergio Liull play basketball.
Ok
And why did he win MVP?
Antinomy wrote:Potedon wrote:Everything about this guy screams bust, would avoid taking him.
I don’t think there’s ever been an international/Euro perimeter player taken in the lottery that ended up being an all star.
It’s a bit different for bigs but even they have trouble succeeding in the league.
kulaz3000 wrote:Antinomy wrote:Potedon wrote:Everything about this guy screams bust, would avoid taking him.
I don’t think there’s ever been an international/Euro perimeter player taken in the lottery that ended up being an all star.
It’s a bit different for bigs but even they have trouble succeeding in the league.
Unlike all American born and bred lottery players who have stellar success rate and never fail as players.
Antinomy wrote:kulaz3000 wrote:Antinomy wrote:
I don’t think there’s ever been an international/Euro perimeter player taken in the lottery that ended up being an all star.
It’s a bit different for bigs but even they have trouble succeeding in the league.
Unlike all American born and bred lottery players who have stellar success rate and never fail as players.
Well considering the NBA is an American League, obviously the total number of busts is much higher for American born players.
But i’d guarantee on a ratio basis that the odds are much worse with Euro players. 1 out of every 10 turns out to be decent. If that.
Antinomy wrote:kulaz3000 wrote:Antinomy wrote:
I don’t think there’s ever been an international/Euro perimeter player taken in the lottery that ended up being an all star.
It’s a bit different for bigs but even they have trouble succeeding in the league.
Unlike all American born and bred lottery players who have stellar success rate and never fail as players.
Well considering the NBA is an American League, obviously the total number of busts is much higher for American born players.
But i’d guarantee on a ratio basis that the odds are much worse with Euro players. 1 out of every 10 turns out to be decent. If that.
SlowPaced wrote:One thing I've noticed with the folk who think Doncic will be a bust is that they base it on the success of former European players. As if that makes any sense whatsoever.
Jahlil Okafor was a bust so let's not draft any Duke player from now on eh?
Mirotic12 wrote:UcanUwill wrote:That said, I wonder how many American tier 1 prospects would have done the same if they were in Euroleague. The answer is obviously not many, but I still think some of them would (maybe not the ones in recent history, but some of them defeinitely would). Luka Doncic is unprecedented case, but thats also because Europe just doesn't produce that many superstar prospects as USA does. So when people say he is best prospect since Lebron, I shake my head a little bit. He is not better than Brow, he is not better than Durant or Embiid...
How many...at age 19, at the class of a NCAA Freshman...maybe....
Magic (against EuroLeague competition back then)
Jordan (against EuroLeague competition back then)
I could possibly see them doing something similar at age 19. But also, the EuroLeague is far better than it was in those days. The list stops there, unless we want to talk about basketball from the 60s and 70s, which might as well be prehistoric in EuroLeague terms.
Curmudgeon wrote:He isn't Drazen Petrovic. Petrovic could take over a game. Doncic just stood in the corner and watched Sergio Liull play basketball.
jimross wrote:I haven't watched alot of Doncic but from the highlights I've seen he doesn't look very quick or fast. I really question his ability to beat defenders off the dribble in the NBA. I have to watch more of him for sure but its something that stood out to me.
Goon wrote:Curmudgeon wrote:He isn't Drazen Petrovic. Petrovic could take over a game. Doncic just stood in the corner and watched Sergio Liull play basketball.
Luka is compared to Dražen as a young player already excelling and due to his attitude and hard work. Their play style is a lot different, Dražen was more of a pure scorer, a traditional SG, while Luka is more of a creator.
Even so, Luka can also take over a game. You just obviously haven't watched many of his games, he took over quite a few games this season, especially in the early part of the season.
The amount of disrespect for Luka is just ridiculous. I really miss constructive criticism and debates when it comes to him. And it's always the same narrative that usually starts with something like:
"I watched some of his highlights ..."
"in the past, Euro players ..."
"Hezonja is a bust so Luka is as well..."
"How many international/Euro players picked in the lottery..." (yeah, let's disregard the other 46 picks since most Euros are picked outside of the lottery because it helps bring the number of international all-stars down)
Hats of to everyone who tries to be constructive and actually analyze him for who he is and not just lazily crossreference him with some past players that are nothing like him.
Antinomy wrote:Goon wrote:Curmudgeon wrote:He isn't Drazen Petrovic. Petrovic could take over a game. Doncic just stood in the corner and watched Sergio Liull play basketball.
Luka is compared to Dražen as a young player already excelling and due to his attitude and hard work. Their play style is a lot different, Dražen was more of a pure scorer, a traditional SG, while Luka is more of a creator.
Even so, Luka can also take over a game. You just obviously haven't watched many of his games, he took over quite a few games this season, especially in the early part of the season.
The amount of disrespect for Luka is just ridiculous. I really miss constructive criticism and debates when it comes to him. And it's always the same narrative that usually starts with something like:
"I watched some of his highlights ..."
"in the past, Euro players ..."
"Hezonja is a bust so Luka is as well..."
"How many international/Euro players picked in the lottery..." (yeah, let's disregard the other 46 picks since most Euros are picked outside of the lottery because it helps bring the number of international all-stars down)
Hats of to everyone who tries to be constructive and actually analyze him for who he is and not just lazily crossreference him with some past players that are nothing like him.
Well when people tried to critique his game, his prognosticators came out in droves & attacked every one.
So instead, we’ve tried to establish a precedent of heralded lottery picks that flames out of the league or became role players at best yet they dismissed those facts too, as if they don’t mean something.
It’s funny. When Porzingis got drafted by the Knicks, I was hyped. I saw the fluidity, the athleticism, the quick-release & knew he’d be a great player despite the history of Euro lottery picks. Then I saw Bender & knew he was toast due to being undersized & not having a real position. Hell, I thought Hezonja would be decent too. Just gotta wait til he gets out of Orlando.
I don’t just attack Euro players. I just call it like I see it.
papidulo wrote:NashtyNas wrote:papidulo wrote:I’m skeptical about guards who dominate internationally until I see them here bc the comp level is different. I also often view European pgs as kinda slow footed (right or not); I value quick feet and the ability to penetrate over being tall and guarding multiple positions. Further, many of the guys who won Euroleague MVP are guys who were role players here, if they ever do come, so I take it with a grain of salt.
Seems like you're attributing your personal biases to a player without actually evaluating his game.
Doncic is one of the best at penetrating and finishing and he's extremely crafty - somewhat similar to a Manu Ginobili who a lot of people have compared him to. He isn't the fastest laterally so he has to use body control to finish in close or draw contact, which he's extremely good at.
His biggest knock is the lateral quickness which is going to need to improve for him to be a defensive stopper and a better finisher at the NBA level, but he's already so polished in terms of floaters and midrange shooting that it rarely hurts him offensively at the current level.
There are worse knocks against a guy like Ayton who's motor has been questioned at every level, as well as his desire. From what I've read, he's motivated by the money more so than the game - which is understandable given his situation but not something I'd bet my franchises future on.
Like I said, since we need high level talent, I'm open to any of who I consider the top 3 prospects in Doncic, Bagley & Ayton (in that order). I know most people likely have Ayton #1 because of that freakish frame and unmatched athleticism we haven't seen in a while.
But I do encourage you to look at players for what they can specifically do against their current competition rather than look at players through a biased lens. Euroleague competition has drastically changed over the years, and each player is different. And just because the MVP guards have flamed out in the past doesn't mean Doncic can't be more like Manu than a flamed out Sergio Rodriguez or Sergio Lull.
I’m not attributing my biases... I’m attributing the fact that I cannot remember the last time a Euroleague stud was able to translate that to the NBA. Also the fact that they are dominant for against a tier of basketball players that is not comparable to the NBA. It’s the 2nd best league in the world true, but by a large margin. There are probably 10-20 players in Euroleague who could or have played in the NBA, and those who have were role players. 16 ppg in Euroleague doesn’t scream top overall pick to me. The only 2 time Euroleague MVP to my memory was Anthony Parker, and most casual fans don’t even know who he is even though he played in the NBA. I’m still of the belief that NCAA is the 2nd best league to the NBA, bc you’re regularly playing with other future NBAers, and for coaches who’ve all for the most part coached current NBA players.
For one on Doncic, lateral quickness is a big thing for guards, especially point guards. That means he’s likely to struggle to beat the 1st defender off penetration. Second, the NBA 3 id further than the Euroleague 3.
It’s not that I think he’s a scrub, just more of a question mark than a lot of ppl make it seem. Phoenix has like 5 lottery busts of big men; they need a big more than a guard. A “low motor” is subjective... they said James Harden had one too