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The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread

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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#161 » by dremill24 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:30 am

Sunsfan12 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
Sunsfan12 wrote:
Do future picks and a 20 ppg scorer not have any value to you?


I mean they do but there is something to be said for an immediate return. Most teams/people are going to put an extra value on the stuff that is tangible right now, whether it’s actually more valuable or not IMO.

As a weird social experiment, id bet that if you asked for the #3 pick in year X, and offered the (guaranteed) #3 pick the year after in return, you’d likely get turned down by most. I realize it’s not exactly the same as what we’re talking about, but it illustrates my above point.

Short-term gratification is real, even if it always the most rational thing.


I get what you’re saying. I’d rather have the #1 pick now than in 5 years. However we are talking multiple assets stretched over a few years. A quality starter in Warren, getting out of Parson’s ugly contract, a young promising PF of the Grizzlies liking (Bender or Chriss), #16, and a pick or two in the future. To be honest we could probably get a borderline all-star player for that combination of assets. Is and all-star caliber player worth the #4 pick to you?


I’d agree it’s a solid bundle. But as always you’re in a situation where one side (at times significantly) over-values its own assets and under-values the other side’s. Plus the objectively most valuable asset is coming from their side, which adds more bias to their end.

At a certain point, you can keep adding perceived average assets but each one doesn’t actually create any more total value.

I just think it’s really difficult to get a top 5 pick without either an All Star or a top 10 pick in the same year going to Memphis.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#162 » by Sunsfan12 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:46 am

dremill24 wrote:
Sunsfan12 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
I mean they do but there is something to be said for an immediate return. Most teams/people are going to put an extra value on the stuff that is tangible right now, whether it’s actually more valuable or not IMO.

As a weird social experiment, id bet that if you asked for the #3 pick in year X, and offered the (guaranteed) #3 pick the year after in return, you’d likely get turned down by most. I realize it’s not exactly the same as what we’re talking about, but it illustrates my above point.

Short-term gratification is real, even if it always the most rational thing.


I get what you’re saying. I’d rather have the #1 pick now than in 5 years. However we are talking multiple assets stretched over a few years. A quality starter in Warren, getting out of Parson’s ugly contract, a young promising PF of the Grizzlies liking (Bender or Chriss), #16, and a pick or two in the future. To be honest we could probably get a borderline all-star player for that combination of assets. Is and all-star caliber player worth the #4 pick to you?


I’d agree it’s a solid bundle. But as always you’re in a situation where one side (at times significantly) over-values its own assets and under-values the other side’s. Plus the objectively most valuable asset is coming from their side, which adds more bias to their end.

At a certain point, you can keep adding perceived average assets but each one doesn’t actually create any more total value.

I just think it’s really difficult to get a top 5 pick without either an All Star or a top 10 pick in the same year going to Memphis.


Maybe you’re right and the sticking point for the Grizzlies will be those things though I hope that’s not the case. As far as the actual value I think that package is worth more than the #4.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#163 » by Roddy B for 3 » Mon May 21, 2018 3:50 am

If Dallas offered 2018 #5 + 2019 unprotected + 2020 pick swap would PHX trade #1?

Why if we add 2021 pick swap?
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#164 » by lilfishi22 » Mon May 21, 2018 4:18 am

Roddy B for 3 wrote:If Dallas offered 2018 #5 + 2019 unprotected + 2020 pick swap would PHX trade #1?

Why if we add 2021 pick swap?

I'm not moving down without knowing who's available then.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#165 » by DirtyDez » Mon May 21, 2018 4:23 am

Roddy B for 3 wrote:If Dallas offered 2018 #5 + 2019 unprotected + 2020 pick swap would PHX trade #1?

Why if we add 2021 pick swap?


Only if you throw in Beaubois.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#166 » by Kerrsed » Mon May 21, 2018 5:08 am

Roddy B for 3 wrote:If Dallas offered 2018 #5 + 2019 unprotected + 2020 pick swap would PHX trade #1?

Why if we add 2021 pick swap?

I agree with the rest, its interesting, but i would have to know who was available.

If Ayton/Doncic/Bagley/Bamba were already taken, it would be hard for me to say yes. I mean we would have a choice of JJJ or Porter, but....yeah....i dont know. Its a pretty good offer, i'd give you that!

My question is, if you did have the #1 pick, who would be your guy, Ayton or Doncic?
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#167 » by jcsunsfan » Mon May 21, 2018 5:21 am

If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#168 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Mon May 21, 2018 5:26 am

jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


I love TJ, but of course I would make that trade. That core would crush.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#169 » by lilfishi22 » Mon May 21, 2018 5:34 am

jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


I see a team like Memphis more likely to make this trade. I could see them trying to "reload on the fly" and a guy like Warren could help them with their scoring woes to stay somewhat competitive for a couple more seasons. The picks would also help them ease into a full rebuild when Gasol is no longer the player I still think he is. I don't see ATL looking to move their high pick since they aren't looking to be even halfway competitive for a couple of seasons and they are looking for highest potential now. Given the latest report about the Kings and Hawks potentially passing on Luka, I think dealing with Memphis makes more sense to me with Doncic possibly being available there. The only hold up for this trade with Memphis is if they want Luka in which case, they wouldn't deal with us
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#170 » by LukasBMW » Mon May 21, 2018 5:42 am

How about we take Ayton @ #1 and let Doncic fall.

Once that team drafts him, we can make an offer.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#171 » by jcsunsfan » Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 am

LukasBMW wrote:How about we take Ayton @ #1 and let Doncic fall.

Once that team drafts him, we can make an offer.

Any trade has to be on draft day. So, yeah, its kinda like that anyway.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#172 » by dremill24 » Mon May 21, 2018 6:21 am

LukasBMW wrote:How about we take Ayton @ #1 and let Doncic fall.

Once that team drafts him, we can make an offer.


I’d be interested to know how many draft-day deals involving the draft picks are not brought up & negotiated until after the pick(s) is made.

I feel like it’d be much more difficult to convince, say Dallas, to part with their brand new rookie who they didn’t think would be available if they didn’t already have an inkling of a deal to be had before making the pick.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#173 » by Kerrsed » Mon May 21, 2018 6:56 am

jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.

For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option. We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.

This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#174 » by Roddy B for 3 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:09 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
Roddy B for 3 wrote:If Dallas offered 2018 #5 + 2019 unprotected + 2020 pick swap would PHX trade #1?

Why if we add 2021 pick swap?

I agree with the rest, its interesting, but i would have to know who was available.

If Ayton/Doncic/Bagley/Bamba were already taken, it would be hard for me to say yes. I mean we would have a choice of JJJ or Porter, but....yeah....i dont know. Its a pretty good offer, i'd give you that!

My question is, if you did have the #1 pick, who would be your guy, Ayton or Doncic?


I would take Ayton.

I think Dallas would take Doncic and if we trade up I will assume it's for Doncic.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#175 » by King4Day » Mon May 21, 2018 12:23 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


The reason I don't believe teams like Sacramento or Atlanta will move their pick is that they need to give fans a reason to show up to games next year. There is more of a sure thing player this year, with someone like Bagley, than the unknown in the future.
59 is worthless and 31 is a crapshoot so those really can't be considered assets they are using for their rebuild.
I would expect us to, at least, have to add the the Miami 2021 pick and not have next years pick protected since the chances of landing a top 3 pick are greater with the new lottery format.

Warren doesn't really do a whole lot for them but maybe because they are semi close to Carolina, you might have some people who are fans of his show up from time to time.

I'm still of the belief that if there is any team that would be willing to move their pick for a 'godfather offer', it would be Memphis since they are technically not yet fully rebuilding. But if they want Doncic, and that's who we would aim to trade up for, then I just don't see that working either.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#176 » by King4Day » Mon May 21, 2018 12:28 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


I see a team like Memphis more likely to make this trade. I could see them trying to "reload on the fly" and a guy like Warren could help them with their scoring woes to stay somewhat competitive for a couple more seasons. The picks would also help them ease into a full rebuild when Gasol is no longer the player I still think he is. I don't see ATL looking to move their high pick since they aren't looking to be even halfway competitive for a couple of seasons and they are looking for highest potential now. Given the latest report about the Kings and Hawks potentially passing on Luka, I think dealing with Memphis makes more sense to me with Doncic possibly being available there. The only hold up for this trade with Memphis is if they want Luka in which case, they wouldn't deal with us


I didn't see this before I posted. Totally agree. I think a deal could be had with Memphis if they don't want Doncic. Question is, do we blow our assets on him (meaning bye bye trading for a potential star)?
I almost feel like we'd benefit more drafting someone like JJJ who is a better defender.

As sexy as a lineup including Booker, Doncic, and Ayton would look, our defense would be quite awful.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#177 » by Roddy B for 3 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:30 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.

For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option.[b] We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.

This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.


How about 2019 PHX 1st + 2021 Miami 1st + #16 + Milwaukee 1st + #31
For
#5 + Wes Matthews

I wouldn't make the trade if Doncic or Ayton were available.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#178 » by bwgood77 » Mon May 21, 2018 4:28 pm

Roddy B for 3 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:If we want Doncic along with Ayton out of this draft, here is how it is done. #1 draft Ayton.

Trade with Atlanta. They are rebuilding. They are amassing assets right now.

16, 31, 59, Milwaukee pick, Suns 19 #1 pick (unprotected or top 3 protected) and TJ Warren.

for #3

I would go for the top 3 protection, but I might gamble and unprotect it. Now you have a core of Ayton, Jackson, Doncic, and Booker going forward.

I love TJ, but Doncic is better at, well, everything over TJ. TJ might be a better mid-range magician and finisher. But passing, shooting, rebounding, ball-handling, and even defending. Doncic is better. Its the versatility that is really intriguing.


Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.

For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option.[b] We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.

This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.


How about 2019 PHX 1st + 2021 Miami 1st + #16 + Milwaukee 1st + #31
For
#5 + Wes Matthews

I wouldn't make the trade if Doncic or Ayton were available.


4 firsts and a second that is basically 1 pick away from a first? So almost 5 firsts for the #5 pick? No thanks. I don't care who is there.
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#179 » by Roddy B for 3 » Mon May 21, 2018 5:13 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Roddy B for 3 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Just like Memphis, it would take more picks. Teams dont care about the #59, so you can take that out of the offer. #59 doesnt get you a player, it gets you a look as a player for your summer squad, and just like catching a fish to small, he gets released back into the wild.

For us to get any top 5 or even 6 pick, it would cost us #16/2019 1st Unprotected/2020 Bucks 1st top 7 protected/2021 Miami 1st Unprotected, and maybe even our own 2021 1st or a pick swap option.[b] We also would be shipping out Warren and their choice of Chriss or Bender, or even a Salary Dump.

This is the draft to rebuild in and teams know it, so we would have to pay the premium price in order to get another pick, Specially with Booker/Jackson off the table. 2 future picks just aint gonna cut it.


How about 2019 PHX 1st + 2021 Miami 1st + #16 + Milwaukee 1st + #31
For
#5 + Wes Matthews

I wouldn't make the trade if Doncic or Ayton were available.


4 firsts and a second that is basically 1 pick away from a first? So almost 5 firsts for the #5 pick? No thanks. I don't care who is there.


What if we removed the Milwaukee pick?

#16 + Miami 2021 + PHX '19 + #31 for #5 + Wes Matthews
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Re: The Ayton & Doncic Conspiracy Thread 

Post#180 » by bwgood77 » Mon May 21, 2018 6:00 pm

Roddy B for 3 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Roddy B for 3 wrote:
How about 2019 PHX 1st + 2021 Miami 1st + #16 + Milwaukee 1st + #31
For
#5 + Wes Matthews

I wouldn't make the trade if Doncic or Ayton were available.


4 firsts and a second that is basically 1 pick away from a first? So almost 5 firsts for the #5 pick? No thanks. I don't care who is there.


What if we removed the Milwaukee pick?

#16 + Miami 2021 + PHX '19 + #31 for #5 + Wes Matthews


I didn't even realize the first time you wanted us to take a bad contract too. No thanks. Maybe if you removed the Miami 2021, but only if Doncic was there.

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