The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[bigfoot]

I want to say this again:

It doesn’t matter what you did in the Euroleague or Division I.

It matters what we think you’ll do in the NBA.

Very true and we have not seen anything of Ayton playing against NBA players. He could be a complete bust with lack of motor and questionable defense.

We have seen Doncic play against NBA players. Those who now play in Euroleauge and also in friendly games against full-NBA teams (OKC). I'm surprised that people don't respond at some level of amazement about Doncic's highlights in the friendly game from October 2016 against OKC.

The kid was 17 years old and competing against NBA players. Watch the video and check out the boxscore. Then think about a 17 year playing against Westbrook (27), Oladipo (24), Sabonis (20), Adams (22) and other much older NBA talent. Real NBA talent. Plus the Real Madrid team won the game. Doncic played 18 minutes with 3pts/5rbs/4asts at 17 freaking years old. Ayton wouldn't have even sniffed the floor at 17 in that game.

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400897113

Watch on YouTube

Forgot to mention:

Three points is not something to brag about.

Again watch the video ... he's running the offense. Quite a few missed open opportunities by his team mates that could have been additional assists. Half court pass for an assist. Skip passes for open three pointers. Again all against NBA talent. Again all at 17 years old.

[TheLogician]

Point of the list was to show that he is very good in drawing fouls. He's drawing 6 in only 26 minutes, Shved, who was solid player in Nba, was playing 32 minutes. But if you insist to talk about quality of players on this list, maybe you should show me a list of players Ayton has played against this year. How many players will even play professional basketball anywhere in the world? 5?;) Is my assumption that he dominated against much smaller kids than him, who will never play basketball for living correct?

It is pretty obvious that there are more ELITE players with huge upside in the NCAA than in EuroLeague.

Just imagine the talent of a team with Trae Young, both Bridges, Bagley, JJr, Ayton.....no way EuroLeague players can match that.

Sure, maybe, but Ayton didn't play against any of those guys, so his numbers were mostly against future salesmen or accountants. There probably isn't one guy at University of Buffalo who will play pro ball anywhere. He played against 5-10 guys who may get drafted of which probably only 3 or 4 make it as rotation players in the league. And even a guy like Brandon McCoy who is borderline second round to undrafted scored 33 against him.

"Google me, Chuck."

Accomplishments and awards

High School

All-USA Boys Basketball First Team (2017)
Naismith High School Boys All-America first team (2017)
Maxpreps High School Boys Basketball All-American third team (2017)
McDonald's All-American (2017)
Jordan Brand Classic (2017)

University of Arizona

Karl Malone Award (2018)
All Pac-12 tournament team (2018)
Pac-12 Tournament Most Outstanding Player (2018)
NBC Sports First Team All-American (2018)
AP Pac-12 Player of the Year (2018)
AP Pac-12 Newcomer of the Year (2018)
AP Pac-12 First Team All-American (2018)
USA Today First Team All-American (2018)
Sporting News First Team All-American (2018)
Pac-12 Player of the Year (2018)
Pac-12 Freshman Player of the Year (2018)
All Pac-12 First team (2018)
All Pac-12 Freshman team (2018)
All Pac-12 Defensive team (2018)
USBWA District IX Player of the Year (2018)
USBWA District IX All-District team (2018)
USBWA First Team All-American (2018)
NABC First Team All-American (2018)
NABC District 20 First team (2018)
AP First Team All-American (2018)

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[SkinnyOMiller]

Alot of them were against a zone defence that is lacking in coverage around the 15-18 feet area. I dont disagree that Ayton has a nice stroke from that range, forgive me that highlight video isnt blowing me away by watching Ayton get easy points against a zone defence.
Im tossing and turning between Ayton and Doncic, and to be honest, Im leaning Doncic over Ayton.

To me, Ayton reminds me of a JJ Hickson with a low post game... is that comparison totally wrong?

There easy point because he is making shots. That’s the point isn’t? Make open shots.

It’s funny. Ayton just dominates inside and out and you hear, well he is bigger or those guys aren’t good. How does any college player dominate?

I’m struggling to understand the knock on him for being too good or making it look too easy.

I'm not even sure Ayton is #2 on my board. He can shoot and rebound most certainly. His face up game, rebounding, and free throw shooting excite me the most and definitely translate to the NBA.

Against better NBA talent his ball handling in the post is not going to hold up until he gets 2-3 years under his belt. He will struggle just earning position for the post up and then ball handling coupled with holding position will be difficult against players his size.

While I love his face up game, he hasn't shown the aggressiveness I would like in terms of face up and then driving by his defender for ferocious slams at the rim like Amare. He seems to have the physical body but again lacks the ball handling and desire? to get to the rim. Could be easier for him when he is matched up against slower big men.

His lack of defensive intensity is probably the most frightening thing. Standing around watching when he could impact the play. I hope that can be untrained but honestly I don't think it can be. It's just the BBIQ ability to see the play unfolding and reacting in time. That quality is so hard to measure other than by visually watching the player in games. Len never acquired that talent in five years of play for the Suns. It may be the most unteachable part of the game. Either you have it or don't.

What I see in Ayton is a player who has half the abilities we need (Scoring, Rebounding, Athleticism) to be a superstar. He needs defense, vision/passing, and BBIQ which are harder to get. With Doncic he checks off more of the abilities to be a superstar, maybe only lacking elite athleticism.

The thing that bugs me most about Ayton is that for such a big guy he is kind of passive and plays soft. A guy like that should be absolutely mauling people and I just don't see it. Very gifted prospect but I don't see him on the same level as Anthony Davis, KAT or even Embiid.

[kennydorglas]

I ask myself to be critical, so I did some more reading. I need a little more Luka in my life, but here’s what I found out about Ayton:

there are moments that came frequently enough during the season where he couldn’t make an 8 footer, didn’t have the right touch around the basket. there were nights he wouldn’t be proud of.

then there’s this. 32 pts on 16 shots. he made 13 of them. most of them were at least 6 feet away:

Watch on YouTube

I’m still impressed. They say no one works harder than DA. If that’s true, he can be an absolute monster. If he can do that, now, imagine what he can do at 21?

He could average 30 in this league. I firmly believe that. He’s not there yet, but there are flashes of Kevin Durant-ness where he just doesn’t miss.

I promise you guys I will watch as much Luka as I can.

If that is indeed the case, then I would be happy drafting him even though I lean toward Luka. I have watched a few games with Ayton where he just doesn't look interested in playing help defense. I saw multiple times where a layup is shot and it looks like a player with Ayton's length and quickness should be able to block the shot, but he just stands there watching it. If he truly has drive and a champion's work ethic, then I will be glad he's on our team.

He might be coasting in the NCAA like Ben Simmons did. Or he might be Wiggins.
It's kinda a red flag but if he's Ben Simmons, no one will remember his struggles in the NCAA.
If he's Wiggins tho...

That's why if i'm in doubt, I always go with the high motor guy.

[bwgood77]

all this talk from fans which is understandable...possible trades and what ifs but the reality is Ayton will be a sun...no way they pass on him...

I agree....I think there is little chance they pass on him. I really wonder what James Jones' thoughts are though, having played with a very high IQ 6'8 point forward and winning a bunch of titles with him running things and not needing a traditional big.

I know he's said great things about both players, as expected, but I wonder what his thoughts are on what is the best recipe for success in the NBA....along with McD who always talks about versatility.

Obviously Sarver would want Ayton.

[Revived]

Ugh. Ayton is so soft and all around unimpressive. And we are most likely gonna waste a #1 pick on him. ****.

[JoRain]

One of the number one things I see people say about Ayton is that he’s going to come in and average 20 and 10. Why is this so alluring? Kanter put up 19 and 11, Okafor put up 18 and 7 as a rookie, Brook Lopez, Zach Randolph, Vucevic all put up similar numbers. Even Cousins put up tremendous numbers but has never been a winning player his whole career. I fully expect Ayton to average 20/10 but that doesn’t mean anything as far as how he contributes to winning.

Benders softness/lack of aggression and Marquese Chriss' lack of an inside presence offensively don't necessary scream success to me. When will be the next time we are able to add a 5 that can average over 20 and 10 ???? We are not getting any restricted free agents. Nobody is going to trade KAT, Embiid, or AD. If we continue to roll with Bender, Chriss, Old Tyson ....we will lose (Doncic or not)

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

[Bold814]

I love this dude.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22023803/arizona-wildcats-freshman-deandre-ayton-not-afraid-do-big-things

That is a great piece of writing. It is a MUST read for the new face of the PHX Suns!

Some quotes from the article:

"He almost has a supernatural strength," Miller said. "His mobility is incredible. His love for the game and his intelligence are shocking to me. A lot of times when you're that big, you just have to play basketball. I can't say enough about how smart he is. And I think that's going to serve him well. He's a talent like I haven't seen before."

"You know who he is? Physically, he's like Dwight Howard but more developed at that age," said one NBA scout who has watched Ayton multiple times this season. "But he shoots 3-pointers. He's Dwight with a 3-ball. How crazy is that? We haven't seen anybody with that combination. He moves like a 6-5 dude. He's a guy who will make an impact on day one. He's a franchise-changer."

"I just have a hard time believing there is anybody better than [Ayton]," Miller said that evening.

"I will dive on the floor for a loose ball," Ayton said. "That's how I'm trained. I can guard a guard if I want to. That's just that price. I'm not gonna sit here and let you score on me. That's in my blood."

Most opponents send an extra defender or two to help on Ayton. That's why the team shoots 39.2 percent from the 3-point line when he's on the floor and just 34 percent when he's on the bench, according to HoopLens.com. (think about Booker here - OMG)

Love his humble beginnings: "Most people say they're in poverty because they've got a little Android [phone]," Ayton said. "Those people [in the Bahamas] don't have phones. No house phones. People live in wood houses, straw houses. No electricity and barely any water, even though we're surrounded by water. My mom and dad, they really did a good job because they did their best to not show us that part of the world."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are some serious and passionate Doncic supporters... and Doncic does look like an awesome prospect who will do well in the NBA. BUT there is no way in this crazy world that McD and Sarver draft Doncic over Ayton. Ayton simply has too much potential. He is generational. He is a physical outlier that we have not seen in decades.

Since the 2010 draft there is one player, maybe, who would have been drafted ahead of DeAndre Ayton. That player is Anthony Davis in 2012. Some may say Simmons, Towns or Irving... but if Ayton were in those drafts, I think he still would have been #1.

This thread is Ayton vs. Doncic. It is not close. Ayton is the #1 pick for all of the reasons we have beaten to death. You can NOT pass on his current day physical gifts, skills and his future potential in the NBA.

One thing that hasn't been discussed enough is Ayton's fit in PHX. Booker will get a vote. Jackson will too. They have kind of already voted. McD and Sarver will look at team chemistry and draft the local kid with collegiate experience who plays a position of need on our current roster.

There are more potential chemistry issues with Doncic than with Ayton. Consider an old quote from Booker around the time of the Bender draft year, that he prefers NCAA experienced players vs. unproven foreign players. Don't ask me for the link... maybe someone else can post it?

Hope this has helped a little bit. The Doncic talk is cute and all... but reality is Ayton will be our pick. It. Makes. Too. Much. Sense.

Let's all welcome our newest franchise player - DeAndre Ayton - with open arms as PHX Suns fans.

I agree Suns will take Ayton. But I have one logical problem. If Ayton is that incredible good already, how Arizona couldn’t beat 13 seat team in NCAA tournament? He should single-handedly beat them. Today even Durant was mentioned as comparison. And even more strangly, Buffalo’s coach target Ayton in D. Far the best player in this draft? Something doesn’t add up. And if he couldn’t help Arizona, how will he help Suns, who were dead last in much more difficult competition?

Ben Simmons didn't even lead his team to the NCAA Tournament in a weak SEC conference. Is he helping the 76ers?

[JMac1]

As much as I love Doncic, and that's a lot, I just don't see how we pass over Ayton. He looks more polished offensively than any big man I've seen in quite sometime.

You get the JMac approval stamp on this

PERIOD!

[bigfoot]

Ugh. Ayton is so soft and all around unimpressive. And we are most likely gonna waste a #1 pick on him. ****.

Ayton -
"When I started playing basketball, they always would have me at the block, and I'm like, 'Yo, I don't want to play down here,'" he said. "I want to do something else. This is not entertaining to me"

Doesn't like contact

[MrMiyagi]

All of you are a bunch of morons. If you think 1st overall is wasted on either of these guys, you don't know much about basketball

No need for personal attacks.

[TheFire]

Knowing our luck, whoever we pass on will be the better of the two, and will torch us mercilessly in a Kings uniform for the next 10 years.

[kennydorglas]

I love this dude.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22023803/arizona-wildcats-freshman-deandre-ayton-not-afraid-do-big-things

Nice read. I found this quote interesting.

He had added 20 pounds of muscle to his frame during his first two months on campus -- he never lifted weights before college -- and he'd reduced his body fat percentage from 13 percent to 7 percent.

Ayton clearly has the work ethic and drive to make it in the NBA. I don't know how much people here bodybuild but it takes insane work ethic from watching what you put in your mouth to how much time you spend in the gym. From that article it's clear Ayton wants to be a superstar. If Ayton can translate that same work ethic to getting better at defense, he'd be a monster. And the article mentioned he idolizes Kevin Garnett. If he trains with Garnett he'll learn what he needs to do to become a superstar, which is becoming better at defense.

When you look at Doncic, it's clear he hasn't been in the weight room much. And I'm not saying he's overweight but spending a couple years alone in Madrid, he might've picked up some bad eating habits from the delicious tapas to fast foods like Mcdonalds. Can't say I blame him. But imagine if Doncic had the same habits as Ayton, Doncic could be a monster. If he gained some muscle and burned fat he could be more faster and athletic. That could be **** scary. Thing is, we don't know if his lack of athleticism is due to his conditioning and eating habits, or if he's just always going to be like that. And when he's in the NBA he'll have to spend a lot of time in the weight room which takes away time working on his weaknesses on the court like defense.

And the obvious counterargument of, "He's spent the past 18 months playing proffessional basketball" is kind of a lazy argument. He's not playing basketball 24 hours a day 7 days a week. He still has time to go in the weight room. And he has the time and money to eat healthy too.

In Europe young players just don’t lift weights. I don’t know why, maybe because of shooting training, but they just don’t. He has very big room for improvement there. And you’re right, he lived alone for some years and got some bad eating habits. He lives from basketball from his childhood, I’m 100% sure he will lose some fat and gain muscle. Every Euro did that.

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/673295/luka-doncics-average-day/

Mcdonald’s.

It’s interesting how good Ft shooter he is 735 without a miss is impressive. Carroll is probably the best pure shooter in Europe.

Jokic was super overweight, Marc Gasol too.
I'd love to understand why they did this in Europe.
Probably forced them to rely more on his skillset than in his athleticism I guess.

[bigfoot]

They say Sarver is in love with Doncic, but I dont but it. Sarver is a U of A alumni and I dont see him passing on a chance to take the first U of A guy #1

Read on Twitter

I buy it. Sarver watched Nash for 8 years in Phoenix. He knows the value of a team player and winner.

[JMac1]

I’m not even arguing with anyone who says they don’t see it in DeAndre or aren’t impressed. If you aren’t impress or can’t see it then....well that speaks for itself. If someone wants Doncic, cool, I get it. But if you are trying to sell anyone else in this draft by saying DeAndre doesn’t impress you..lol. Yea his defense needs work, but don’t tell me he doesn’t have the tools.

If you want to knock his heart, you can, because I have no idea about that. Just draft him and hope that he is the Barry Sanders of basketball. A low key killer.

His ceiling is as high as Embiid. Embiid is more fluid, but DeAndre is more explosive and no injuries!

[TheLogician]

I love this dude.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22023803/arizona-wildcats-freshman-deandre-ayton-not-afraid-do-big-things

That is a great piece of writing. It is a MUST read for the new face of the PHX Suns!

Some quotes from the article:

"He almost has a supernatural strength," Miller said. "His mobility is incredible. His love for the game and his intelligence are shocking to me. A lot of times when you're that big, you just have to play basketball. I can't say enough about how smart he is. And I think that's going to serve him well. He's a talent like I haven't seen before."

"You know who he is? Physically, he's like Dwight Howard but more developed at that age," said one NBA scout who has watched Ayton multiple times this season. "But he shoots 3-pointers. He's Dwight with a 3-ball. How crazy is that? We haven't seen anybody with that combination. He moves like a 6-5 dude. He's a guy who will make an impact on day one. He's a franchise-changer."

"I just have a hard time believing there is anybody better than [Ayton]," Miller said that evening.

"I will dive on the floor for a loose ball," Ayton said. "That's how I'm trained. I can guard a guard if I want to. That's just that price. I'm not gonna sit here and let you score on me. That's in my blood."

Most opponents send an extra defender or two to help on Ayton. That's why the team shoots 39.2 percent from the 3-point line when he's on the floor and just 34 percent when he's on the bench, according to HoopLens.com. (think about Booker here - OMG)

Love his humble beginnings: "Most people say they're in poverty because they've got a little Android [phone]," Ayton said. "Those people [in the Bahamas] don't have phones. No house phones. People live in wood houses, straw houses. No electricity and barely any water, even though we're surrounded by water. My mom and dad, they really did a good job because they did their best to not show us that part of the world."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are some serious and passionate Doncic supporters... and Doncic does look like an awesome prospect who will do well in the NBA. BUT there is no way in this crazy world that McD and Sarver draft Doncic over Ayton. Ayton simply has too much potential. He is generational. He is a physical outlier that we have not seen in decades.

Since the 2010 draft there is one player, maybe, who would have been drafted ahead of DeAndre Ayton. That player is Anthony Davis in 2012. Some may say Simmons, Towns or Irving... but if Ayton were in those drafts, I think he still would have been #1.

This thread is Ayton vs. Doncic. It is not close. Ayton is the #1 pick for all of the reasons we have beaten to death. You can NOT pass on his current day physical gifts, skills and his future potential in the NBA.

One thing that hasn't been discussed enough is Ayton's fit in PHX. Booker will get a vote. Jackson will too. They have kind of already voted. McD and Sarver will look at team chemistry and draft the local kid with collegiate experience who plays a position of need on our current roster.

There are more potential chemistry issues with Doncic than with Ayton. Consider an old quote from Booker around the time of the Bender draft year, that he prefers NCAA experienced players vs. unproven foreign players. Don't ask me for the link... maybe someone else can post it?

Hope this has helped a little bit. The Doncic talk is cute and all... but reality is Ayton will be our pick. It. Makes. Too. Much. Sense.

Let's all welcome our newest franchise player - DeAndre Ayton - with open arms as PHX Suns fans.

I agree Suns will take Ayton. But I have one logical problem. If Ayton is that incredible good already, how Arizona couldn’t beat 13 seat team in NCAA tournament? He should single-handedly beat them. Today even Durant was mentioned as comparison. And even more strangly, Buffalo’s coach target Ayton in D. Far the best player in this draft? Something doesn’t add up. And if he couldn’t help Arizona, how will he help Suns, who were dead last in much more difficult competition?

Nate Oats (Buffalo's coach) is a loudmouth idiot. Every team targeted Ayton with double teams. This was nothing new. His team hit 50% from three and exploited the pack line defense. Same thing happened to Virginia.

[JMac1]

They say Sarver is in love with Doncic, but I dont but it. Sarver is a U of A alumni and I dont see him passing on a chance to take the first U of A guy #1

Read on Twitter

I buy it. Sarver watched Nash for 8 years in Phoenix. He knows the value of a team player and winner.

I don’t buy it. This is such a ploy,lol! Sarver says he likes Doncic but the Suns brass likes Ayton. We go with Ayton showing Sarver is taking a step back and letting the decisions get made without him. So much PR in this. Makes me happy tho.

[bigfoot]

They say Sarver is in love with Doncic, but I dont but it. Sarver is a U of A alumni and I dont see him passing on a chance to take the first U of A guy #1

Read on Twitter

I buy it. Sarver watched Nash for 8 years in Phoenix. He knows the value of a team player and winner.

I don’t buy it. This is such a ploy,lol! Sarver says he likes Doncic but the Suns brass likes Ayton. We go with Ayton showing Sarver is taking a step back and letting the decisions get made without him. So much PR in this. Makes me happy tho.

Sarver insisted on bringing Dragic back ... we'll get Doncic for sure.

[Mjee]

One of the number one things I see people say about Ayton is that he’s going to come in and average 20 and 10. Why is this so alluring? Kanter put up 19 and 11, Okafor put up 18 and 7 as a rookie, Brook Lopez, Zach Randolph, Vucevic all put up similar numbers. Even Cousins put up tremendous numbers but has never been a winning player his whole career. I fully expect Ayton to average 20/10 but that doesn’t mean anything as far as how he contributes to winning.

Benders softness/lack of aggression and Marquese Chriss' lack of an inside presence offensively don't necessary scream success to me. When will be the next time we are able to add a 5 that can average over 20 and 10 ???? We are not getting any restricted free agents. Nobody is going to trade KAT, Embiid, or AD. If we continue to roll with Bender, Chriss, Old Tyson ....we will lose (Doncic or not)

If you want 20 and 10 guy, you should throw some money at Kanter this offseason. he' s a free agent I believe and given minutes he' ll give you those numbers.

He averaged 14 and 11 this year. Ayton is going to be way better. What kind of production is quese and bender giving us ???

[JMac1]

Knowing our luck, whoever we pass on will be the better of the two, and will torch us mercilessly in a Kings uniform for the next 10 years.

BS..our luck changed the night we won the draft. Go somewhere with that bull ****! Stop trying to keep that grey cloud hovering over this franchise. That thinking is tired and played.

We need new school positive Suns fans. The ones who willed this top pick.

Don’t want anymore woe is me crap thinking from May 15th on.