The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[Jstock12]

The prosecution rests.

I take it you're bowing out?

Okay.



I mean, I was keeping an open mind in case you managed to provide at least a few good arguments (because there are definitely good arguments to be found in favor of Ayton - that's why this argument is so close), but I guess I shouldn't have even bothered entering into a discussion. All you did was make a ton of assumptions (negative worst case scenario assumptions about Doncic, and only best case rainbow & sunshine assumptions about Ayton) and treat them like facts. This is the problem when you enter into an argument with an Ayton avatar showing and #teamAyton in your sig. You can't stay objective. You start making stuff up to support your agenda.

[8on]

The prosecution rests.

I take it you're bowing out?

Okay.

for now. I don’t question assumptions anymore. I try to provide new information. I’m leaving the dissection to people other than me.

[TASTIC]

I like both players as prospects - but looking at Ayton he (physically at least) looks like David Robinson. Absolutely ridiculous physique and the perfect frame for a new C in today's NBA.

Doncic is skilled, no doubt. He is doing stuff no Euro has ever done at his age, but I worry about his speed/athleticism/WHO he will defend. Also worried with him as a dominant ball-handler we're going to see it in Booker's hands less. I'd much prefer to offer Charlotte something like Warren + #16 for Kemba, maybe add #31 if we have to. Walker's a fantastic scorer, a good competitor and he has experience playing next to a play-making swing-man in Batum, so he can play off-ball and it wouldn't take as much of an adjustment.

Ayton just screams generational C to me. On the Lowe podcast they mentioned Sarver being a big backer for Arizona, so that's definitely something to consider when predicting who we'll take.

Others have made the comparisons for Doncic - I agree, I see a little too much Turkoglu/Gallinari in his game. That very skilled but ultimately slow Euro who is good, but didn't quite get to the level you hoped for them. It's easy to compare him to slow white guys, but he also reminds me a bit of Paul Pierce, in his shot creation, movement and level of athleticism (which isn't a bad thing).

This is all a moot point if we can get Towns for the #1 (and 1-2 other assets)...

I'm probably going to get savaged but I'd call Minny and offer them Knight for Dieng straight up if they're not moving KAT. He could start at C for us easily and he's just rotting on their bench. Dieng has an extra year on his deal but he'd bring more than Knight would. His production fell off a cliff last year with Taj on board, but the per-36s etc are all in line with his career averages.

And as others have said, the only reason to throw a max at Capela is if they take Doncic 1...Which I still can't see happening.

[phnart]

Hedo Turkoglu....uggh. Not again.

[JDJ26]

My issue with taking Doncic is what if he can't play point guard in the NBA. The Suns would have the same issues they had with Dragic, IT, and Bledsoe on the team except this time it would be with Doncic, Jackson, and Warren.

I would rather not repeat history. Hopefully Sarver and the front office go with Ayton.

[lilfishi22]

I don't buy either of these guys as transcendent scoring talents, like at all. They affect the game in very different ways. The difference I see and the reason why I lean towards Doncic over Ayton is because I think his game and skillset is more conducive to elite team play and that is what effectively lift starter level players into all-stars. Looking at Boston, their all-star big (Horford) isn't dominant offensively, plays a ton off the ball, plays great defense, is an elite passer and the team makes guys like Rozier, Tatum and Brown look like all-stars and that's all without a dominant big. With Kyrie and Hayward back healthy and without getting a big, I fully expect them to still be at the top of the East.

Could a guy like AD start for Boston? He would and they would probably be favorites for the title. But I don't see an AD level talent there in this draft. For a big, it *has* to start with defense first and Ayton coming in with a subpar defensive resume just doesn't do it for me. He has room to improve because he clearly has the tools but I question whether he has the defensive awareness to be an elite defensive player you need at that position.

It really comes down to what kind of team I think wins titles. I think the basic formula (without taking style/coaching into consideration yet) requires a top defensive big man, you need 3&D role players and you need at least two high level ball-handlers/offense generators. In this draft, between the two guys we're discussing, I think Doncic is the only one fits one of those spots. I think it's more difficult to get an elite level creator at the wings than it is to get a great defensive big man. There's no one like Doncic in the open market and very rarely are there. But on the defensive big man end, we could look at guys like DeAndre Jordan, Capela, Myles Turner, hell even guys like Looney, Dieng, Drummond or Whiteside could fill that role.

This is just my opinion so obviously not 100% objective

[lilfishi22]

My issue with taking Doncic is what if he can't play point guard in the NBA. The Suns would have the same issues they had with Dragic, IT, and Bledsoe on the team except this time it would be with Doncic, Jackson, and Warren.

I would rather not repeat history. Hopefully Sarver and the front office go with Ayton.

He's not going to be a PG in the NBA. He'll be a point forward. As he goes through an NBA S&C program to build strength and improve athleticism over time he'll become a better player. He has a solid frame coming in and it's not something we normally see from European players so he can certainly improve on the physical end. The problem with the three headed PG set up we had is that none of those guys were comfortable playing off the ball. They've come out publicly and said they are lead guards.

As Igor said, your position is who you guard in the NBA and in the NBA, I see him guarding wings and sometimes 4's. I see Booker guarding guards and I see Jackson guarding all perimeter players. Offensively, all 4 guys can play off the ball

[ImNotMcDiSwear]

We should all be able to agree that this is a tough decision. These are two phenomenal prospects.

I wonder if we offered the first pick for the second pick, whether the Kings would require some compensation in return!

[kennydorglas]

I don't buy either of these guys as transcendent scoring talents, like at all. They affect the game in very different ways. The difference I see and the reason why I lean towards Doncic over Ayton is because I think his game and skillset is more conducive to elite team play and that is what effectively lift starter level players into all-stars. Looking at Boston, their all-star big (Horford) isn't dominant offensively, plays a ton off the ball, plays great defense, is an elite passer and the team makes guys like Rozier, Tatum and Brown look like all-stars and that's all without a dominant big. With Kyrie and Hayward back healthy and without getting a big, I fully expect them to still be at the top of the East.

Could a guy like AD start for Boston? He would and they would probably be favorites for the title. But I don't see an AD level talent there in this draft. For a big, it *has* to start with defense first and Ayton coming in with a subpar defensive resume just doesn't do it for me. He has room to improve because he clearly has the tools but I question whether he has the defensive awareness to be an elite defensive player you need at that position.

It really comes down to what kind of team I think wins titles. I think the basic formula (without taking style/coaching into consideration yet) requires a top defensive big man, you need 3&D role players and you need at least two high level ball-handlers/offense generators. In this draft, between the two guys we're discussing, I think Doncic is the only one fits one of those spots. I think it's more difficult to get an elite level creator at the wings than it is to get a great defensive big man. There's no one like Doncic in the open market and very rarely are there. But on the defensive big man end, we could look at guys like DeAndre Jordan, Capela, Myles Turner, hell even guys like Looney, Dieng, Drummond or Whiteside could fill that role.

This is just my opinion so obviously not 100% objective

Even AD doesnt want to be a 5. Every time I saw him pairing with Asik/Ajinca, always made me puke.
I'd say those skilled bigs knows that this position is dying and they want no part with that anymore.
DeAndre screams a finesse 4 for me. Just like KAT.
With that said, you still has a hole at 5 and another one at 1.

I think he can be a beast in this role, but no one is drafting him to play there.
They want him to be a two-way center.

[lilfishi22]

We should all be able to agree that this is a tough decision. These are two phenomenal prospects.

I wonder if we offered the first pick for the second pick, whether the Kings would require some compensation in return!

Totally agree with the first line

I would want compensation in return. I fully expect Doncic to be their target. He makes more sense for them with WCS at C and only Fox as the sole ball handler. Guys like WCS, Hield and Bogdanovic would all get better playing next to another high level creator. If Doncic is their guy and Ayton is ours, I'd trade down to get Ayton at #2 but I would want compensation

[TheLogician]

Trade for Kemba and extend him for near-max while JJ and Ayton are on rookie contracts. It's the best way to compete right away.

[Mjee]

Trade for Kemba and extend him for near-max while JJ and Ayton are on rookie contracts. It's the best way to compete right away.

Agree 100% suns would be exciting again

[sunsbum]

So doncic is going to take the ball out of bookers hands but kemba wont? Ok.

[TheLogician]

Booker isn't a primary ball handler. Kemba is better individually but Dragic could be a better fit given his familiarity with Kokoskov and the organization. I'm on board with either one.

[Mjee]

So doncic is going to take the ball out of bookers hands but kemba wont? Ok.

Booker will have the ball in his hands during crunch time and big plays down the stretch ! Kemba or another pg would be the offense initiator throughout the game as Doncic would be as well ..... however Ayton would provide the inside scoring that Chriss and bender never could

[bigfoot]

Luka on the left from about a year ago. Not seeing too much flab. Definitely can work on his strength. He could definitely improve his speed and leaping with some weight lifting. Coupled with his elite basketball skills and IQ he is destined to be superstar.

[BobbieL]

Trade for Kemba and extend him for near-max while JJ and Ayton are on rookie contracts. It's the best way to compete right away.

I presented this trade awhile ago but Charlotte probably builds around him. Suns can take a bad contract or two but puts them near luxury if Booker and Walker extended

[DirtyDez]

Would it make any of the pro-Doncic guys less uneasy if they took Ayton considering the Suns have scouted Doncic for 3 years and McD has never been hesitant on drafting European players? All that considered and they still pass?

[bigfoot]

The NBA has done everything possible to eliminate the big man and support small ball ... 1) 3 second defensive rule, 2) allowing big men to get mugged in the post without making calls, 3) no handing checking when the offensive player is facing basket, 4) five second back to the basket violation. Couple that with analytics that show posting up is the worst percentage shot and that corner threes are the best and you can see why big men are done in the NBA, especially on the offensive side of the game.

For those you saying "but Ayton can hit the three" he shot 17% from NBA range in college. Ayton is athletically freaky but with a lot of question marks on defense, motor, and BBIQ. Does he want to play PF and not C. Can he be a defensive rim protector with the rules coupled with his already questionable defense?

Thing is coach Miller raved that Ayton put on 20 pounds of muscle in 2 months of summer weight lifting work at UofA. Okay so have Doncic hit the weights this summer from July through October and he will be a terror for opposing teams to deal with. We need complete basketball players. Doncic is the real deal in terms of skills, IQ, scoring, rebounding, vision, leadership, winning mentality, and maybe lacks the elite athleticism but can move towards that with a bit of work this summer. Nash could get his shot and involve other teammates and his was not elite as an athlete. Doncic is the right choice.

[AtheJ415]

Trade for Kemba and extend him for near-max while JJ and Ayton are on rookie contracts. It's the best way to compete right away.

Agree 100% suns would be exciting again

Kemba is worth nowhere near the max. Not even close.