The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[bhawk]

My biggest fear of Ayton is that he’s really 25 years old. He has some of that Greg Oden in him lol. Huge freaks like that at a young age make me nervous with injuries (Oden, Embiid, Porzingis etc)... so far Ayton hasn’t had any health issues that we know of and didn’t have a problem adding significant bulk in a short time. His body handles it fine... He’s a physical marvel.

Not even close. Oden’s forehead looked like a Shar Pei. No wrinkles on our new Center’s face.

That is an interesting take. Certainly, Ayton handles the bulk well and has the phsyique of a Greek God. But we should verify his birth year. I don't want a Thon Maker-like debacle.

[Archx]

This is not an argument of 100 post ups vs. 100 three pointers, because Ayton does both very well. He has one of the best ALL around offensive skill-sets in the last 10 years for a BIG. An NBA-ready skill-set, that will translate very nicely to this NEW era in the NBA.


He is SensAYTiONAL.

But how do you know that? You are projecting him to be something that NO ONE has a clue if he really turns out like that. Will he really translate everything into the new NBA era of playstyle. For me if he turns out like AD nr2, you have a winner. But we have yet to see how he fairs up against NBA players and obviously offensive and defensive schemes. To this point he was playing against boys but we do know what Ray Allen once famously said. NBA means "No Boys Allowed".

[bhawk]

Jackson's opinion is irrelevant until he proves himself as a borderline star, let alone simply a plus player. It doesn't matter what Booker wants right now because if Ayton doesn't pan out he's likely gone at the end of his contract anyway. He's not going to care that you picked his preferred player 3 years ago that turned out to be mediocre or suck ass.

Both Jackson and Booker will have a vote and Booker will absolutely care and remember in 3 years that the Suns did right by him.

Ayton will pan out.

[bhawk]

This is not an argument of 100 post ups vs. 100 three pointers, because Ayton does both very well. He has one of the best ALL around offensive skill-sets in the last 10 years for a BIG. An NBA-ready skill-set, that will translate very nicely to this NEW era in the NBA.


He is SensAYTiONAL.

But how do you know that? You are projecting him to be something that NO ONE has a clue if he really turns out like that. Will he really translate everything into the new NBA era of playstyle. For me if he turns out like AD nr2, you have a winner. But we have yet to see how he fairs up against NBA players and obviously offensive and defensive schemes. To this point he was playing against boys but we do know what Ray Allen once famously said. NBA means "No Boys Allowed".

Nobody knows how Ayton will turn out for sure, but I've watched a lot of basketball and even summer leagues... and... you just know. I don't know how to describe the "IT" factor, but Ayton has IT. Watch his games, highlights, whatever, and Ayton is just better than everybody else on the court.

The first time I really felt and saw the "IT" factor with with Amare in Summer League... and it was like WOW! Amare was amazing and the dude dominated from Day 1. Booker in his first Summer League had IT too. Bender nope. Chriss, sadly, no.

Ayton is special and you don't have to be a PHD rocket scientist or NBA scout to see how obviously good Ayton is today and will be tomorrow.

Ayton played against boys in college - YES. So did Boogie, AD, Shaq and every other big.

The question should be... Does Ayton pass the eye test physically? YES. Does he look like he can play in the NBA? YES. Does he have a mid-range game that is arguably better than most of the superstar bigs at the same college age - YES.

This isn't and should not be a debate. There is one obvious and generational pick for the Suns at #1 and it is DeAndre Ayton.

If you're still not sold, just watch some tape on the kid. He is so freaking good at such a young age it is sick. Great for us and it will suck for the rest of the league. Size, agility, shooting, dunking, tip ins, reach, range... he seriously has it all.

This is like when the Spurs drafted David Robinson and then Tim Duncan at #1. When we are old and grey our kids will still be talking about the time the Suns got the #1 pick and drafted DeAndre Ayton.

Sorry to lay it on so thick... but man... Ayton is really, really good.

[bwgood77]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

I was expecting him to look really good since you are so over the top, but he did remind me of what I often watched with his D. Just a lot of watching. Even when he is right there. I wanted to chalk it up to EBYL....no one taking defense seriously but then some of the other guys were, including Carter. Reminds me of college a bit.

So much to like, but it's just weird he just freezes and watches so much when people are on their way to scoring. It seems like it would be somewhat an instinct to do something. It will be interesting to see how coaching works with that.

[blee732]

This is not an argument of 100 post ups vs. 100 three pointers, because Ayton does both very well. He has one of the best ALL around offensive skill-sets in the last 10 years for a BIG. An NBA-ready skill-set, that will translate very nicely to this NEW era in the NBA.


He is SensAYTiONAL.

But how do you know that? You are projecting him to be something that NO ONE has a clue if he really turns out like that. Will he really translate everything into the new NBA era of playstyle. For me if he turns out like AD nr2, you have a winner. But we have yet to see how he fairs up against NBA players and obviously offensive and defensive schemes. To this point he was playing against boys but we do know what Ray Allen once famously said. NBA means "No Boys Allowed".

Nobody knows how Ayton will turnout for sure, but I've watched a lot of basketball and even summer league... and... you just know. I don't know how to describe the "IT" factor, but Ayton has IT. Watch his games, highlights, whatever and Ayton is just better than everybody else on the court.

The first time I really felt or saw the IT factor with with Amare in Summer League and it was like WOW! Amare was amazing and the dude dominated from Day 1. Booker in his first Summer League had IT too. Bender nope. Chriss, sadly, no.

Ayton is special and it doesn't take a PHD rocket scientist to see how obviously good Ayton is today and will be tomorrow.

Ayton played against boys in college - YES. So did Boogie, AD, Shaq and every other big.

The question should be... Does Ayton pass the eye test physically? YES. Does he look like he can play in the NBA? YES. Does he have a mid-range game that is arguably better than most of the superstar bigs at the same college age - YES.

This isn't and should not be a debate. There is one obvious and generational pick for the Suns at #1 and it is DeAndre Ayton.

If you're still not sold, just watch some tape on the kid. He is so freaking good at such a young age it is sick. Great for us and it will suck for the rest of the league. Size, agility, shooting, dunking, tip ins, reach, range... he seriously has it all.

This is like when the Spurs drafted David Robinson and then Tim Duncan at #1. When we are old and grey our kids will still be talking about the time the Suns got the #1 pick and drafted DeAndre Ayton.

Sorry to lay it on so thick... but man... Ayton is really, really good.

Tell us how you REALLY feel

Out of curiosity, were there certain vids/clips that convinced you? The one's I've seen (mainly highlights) haven't blown me away. They haven't been disappointing either, just a lot of focus on dunks rather than things like footwork, positioning, and other more skill-based attributes.

[Kerrsed]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

[bwgood77]

Both Jackson and Booker will have a vote and Booker will absolutely care and remember in 3 years that the Suns did right by him.

Ayton will pan out.

You think they will take player votes for who to draft at #1?

[Archx]

This is not an argument of 100 post ups vs. 100 three pointers, because Ayton does both very well. He has one of the best ALL around offensive skill-sets in the last 10 years for a BIG. An NBA-ready skill-set, that will translate very nicely to this NEW era in the NBA.


He is SensAYTiONAL.

But how do you know that? You are projecting him to be something that NO ONE has a clue if he really turns out like that. Will he really translate everything into the new NBA era of playstyle. For me if he turns out like AD nr2, you have a winner. But we have yet to see how he fairs up against NBA players and obviously offensive and defensive schemes. To this point he was playing against boys but we do know what Ray Allen once famously said. NBA means "No Boys Allowed".

Nobody knows how Ayton will turn out for sure, but I've watched a lot of basketball and even summer leagues... and... you just know. I don't know how to describe the "IT" factor, but Ayton has IT. Watch his games, highlights, whatever, and Ayton is just better than everybody else on the court.

The first time I really felt and saw the "IT" factor with with Amare in Summer League... and it was like WOW! Amare was amazing and the dude dominated from Day 1. Booker in his first Summer League had IT too. Bender nope. Chriss, sadly, no.

Ayton is special and you don't have to be a PHD rocket scientist or NBA scout to see how obviously good Ayton is today and will be tomorrow.

Ayton played against boys in college - YES. So did Boogie, AD, Shaq and every other big.

The question should be... Does Ayton pass the eye test physically? YES. Does he look like he can play in the NBA? YES. Does he have a mid-range game that is arguably better than most of the superstar bigs at the same college age - YES.

This isn't and should not be a debate. There is one obvious and generational pick for the Suns at #1 and it is DeAndre Ayton.

If you're still not sold, just watch some tape on the kid. He is so freaking good at such a young age it is sick. Great for us and it will suck for the rest of the league. Size, agility, shooting, dunking, tip ins, reach, range... he seriously has it all.

This is like when the Spurs drafted David Robinson and then Tim Duncan at #1. When we are old and grey our kids will still be talking about the time the Suns got the #1 pick and drafted DeAndre Ayton.

Sorry to lay it on so thick... but man... Ayton is really, really good.

It's cool no problem. I do agree with you. I also think Ayton should go nr1, for a different reason than you but still.... He has a huge potential and a chance to turn Suns into a playoff team in a few years.

[Villalobos]

would be interesting to see how this whole discussion would have looked if Ayton had been offered a bigger bag of money from some other college

[Kerrsed]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

I was expecting him to look really good since you are so over the top, but he did remind me of what I often watched with his D. Just a lot of watching. Even when he is right there. I wanted to chalk it up to EBYL....no one taking defense seriously but then some of the other guys were, including Carter. Reminds me of college a bit.

So much to like, but it's just weird he just freezes and watches so much when people are on their way to scoring. It seems like it would be somewhat an instinct to do something. It will be interesting to see how coaching works with that.

Rewatch it again and watch #22, thats McCoy, the guy thats supposed to be guarding Carter. Ayton stays with his own man most of the time. Once again people expecting Ayton to guard multiple people on the same possession because of players blowing their own defensive assignments. Many times you can see AYton guarding his may towards the top of the 3 point line, while Carter and McCoy are right under the basket. I guess Ayton should have left his man open, and gone the 20 feet to help double Carter more (He did this a few times late in the game/video).

[bigfoot]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

What ever!! Ayton's defensive motor and/or IQ is questionable, period. That's frightening for center. I would rather pick Jackson or Carter Jr over him because we don't need Amare 2.0. We had Amare 1.0, the guy who could score but with his elite athleticism could never figure out the defensive end.

[Wagonband]

While as an European i am a bit biased, i have to say i see merits for both players. What really draws me to Doncic is the fact that i believe that his floor is something like a Gordon Hayward with slightly less athleticism but much better creation for others. And his ceiling is definetly a slightly worse version than current Harden. But even there i can see his 2,3 inches closing the gap a lot.

And Ayton while he looks amazing, i'm not sold he can really be game changing. Everyone thinks of Embiid as the current great center, and i don't think Ayton is going to be as good, but even Embiid got exposed already quite a few times. It's all good when he dunked on Baynes a couple of times, but overall Baynes and Horford did a really good job on him, and these are not Gobert level defenders despite being good. So how does a slightly worse version of Embiid work then? Does he really move the needle that much? I mean he also looks kinda a bit more athletic Demarcus, and everyone is saying how you can't win with DeMarcus. Add to that he is so far nowhere near Embiid level presence of defence. I don't know, i just don't see it.

As for Doncic like mentioned before, i think he will be amazing. What i keep telling people is that he is exhausted since he has been playing so much. He was much sharper and faster in the Euro than he is lately, and after a summers rest i believe he will easily reach that same level again. And despite all of this he won basically everything that could be won this year. He basically hit the "rookie wall" before even being a rookie imo.

Here's my question. How big is the Kokoskov influence though?

I imagine a scenario where he sits down with Booker and the rest of the team, and tells them about his first hand experience with Doncic and how they won the Euro despite not being even in the top 5 contenders before the tournament started, in large part owing to an 18y old Doncic. He says he doesn't know Ayton personally, but can vouch for Doncic that he will make everyone better on the team, and bring a huge winning mentality to a team that has been loosing for quite a few years now it seems.

Do you think if he hypothetically makes Booker want to play with that kind of guy it would affect the choice? Do you think Booker would be open to that? I assume the Suns simply must take into consideration what he wants in this scenario

[saintEscaton]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

What ever!! Ayton's defensive motor and/or IQ is questionable, period. That's frightening for center. I would rather pick Jackson or Carter Jr over him because we don't need Amare 2.0. We had Amare 1.0, the guy who could score but with his elite athleticism could never figure out the defensive end.

I've heard it all!

[Blonde]

I hope people realize that being pro-Doncic doesn't mean that I think Ayton is going to suck. I think he probably will be an all-star at some point and I'd be thrilled to take him at 2. I recognize his power, size, and athleticism is unlike most centers that come through the league. His wingspan and ability to slide his feet make me hopeful that he will improve his defensive game.

I just think Doncic is that special of a prospect and I worry about the long term effectiveness of Ayton. I don't have any worries about Doncic's shooting - his numbers were lower than hoped for but the form is great and the level of difficulty was always high. People think he can't be a scorer but he will get to the line a bunch and convert at a high rate. I totally see why people worry about him creating separation in the NBA, but we don't want him going 1 on 1 anyway. Igor's offense will have tons of high ball screens, off ball screens, dribble handoffs, and motion under the hoop to free cutters and get switches. His passing speaks for itself. His weaknesses will not keep him off the court because even if he can't create any separation at all, he's still going to be a valuable passer and shooter playing off of other ball handlers.

Ayton's offensive game is great. I love that he can make freethrows and pass out of double teams. I love his rebounding ability even though he doesn't box out that well. But it's difficult to get bigs involved because they are reliant on others. That's one of the reasons why Anthony Davis is the most inconsistent superstar in the league (before the homestretch of the season he had the highest variance in scoring night to night among top players). It scares me to draft Ayton when I'm unsure if we have the personnel to properly take advantage of his skills. I would hate to draft him and have him relegated to grabbing offensive boards because we can pay a vet to do that. I'm also concerned about his screen setting which has been called into question many times. He doesn't really make contact well with the defender, and he pops more than he should because he is overly reliant on the midrange.

Last, when I think about the number one pick, I want someone who will be the face of the franchise for 20 years. To me, Ayton is too reliant on his physical tools (athleticism) to be effective for that long. If he takes a knee injury that could be it for him. When his athleticism declines I don't know if the rest of his game can make up for that. I hope so. He has the talent that it certainly could. Bigs in this era who have maintained excellent play for long time periods like Dirk and Duncan were never very reliant on athleticism. Doncic has the type of game that *should* age very well, and has much less risk of career altering injury. Maybe this is an unreasonable factor, but to me it counts for a lot between two great prospects.

[AtheJ415]

Yeah, a couple things.

While it's not good to have a questionable motor, being the best rebounder in the country while nearly setting UA's all time shot blocking record with said motor actually points to upside. It isn't just a bad thing. When guys are productive despite holes in their games it points to areas to improve.

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious this absurd argument that "we don't know how Ayton will handle grown men in the NBA". If you are saying that about him you have to say it about every prospect that has ever existed aside from those back when we sent college kids to the national team or the European prospects who have played on these teams, but if you honestly believe that is such a huge difference to decide your picks on, then I am thoroughly confused why this board hasn't been clamoring for Europeans for years and why Dzanan Musa isn't the #2 projected pick on these people's boards. Also, we do know how Ayton will deal with NBA bigs. Be real here. He is 7'1" 260 and all muscle. He will bully the hell out of all but a couple bigs in the league from day 1 and is as athletic and skilled as any center other than the Embiid's and Davis's of the world.

[lilfishi22]

So i see we exhausted all arguments now and it got to the point who has the hotter girlfriend?

But in reality i think Ayton SHOULD and WILL go nr1. Simply because its their own homeboy hero. And front office at some point has to start selling tickets again and they probably don't even care anymore if Luka becomes a bigger version of James Harden and if he is coming from probably the best sport institution in the world... Ayton is their home guy and it is appropriate that Suns take him specially cos' of the huge pressure from the public and front office knows that.

And that's going to be a huge mistake if that's their motivation. If they think he's clear BPA without all that other distraction then that's fine

[AtheJ415]

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

What ever!! Ayton's defensive motor and/or IQ is questionable, period. That's frightening for center. I would rather pick Jackson or Carter Jr over him because we don't need Amare 2.0. We had Amare 1.0, the guy who could score but with his elite athleticism could never figure out the defensive end.

I've heard it all!

You must've missed the Kwame Brown comparisons.

[bwgood77]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

I was expecting him to look really good since you are so over the top, but he did remind me of what I often watched with his D. Just a lot of watching. Even when he is right there. I wanted to chalk it up to EBYL....no one taking defense seriously but then some of the other guys were, including Carter. Reminds me of college a bit.

So much to like, but it's just weird he just freezes and watches so much when people are on their way to scoring. It seems like it would be somewhat an instinct to do something. It will be interesting to see how coaching works with that.

Rewatch it again and watch #22, thats McCoy, the guy thats supposed to be guarding Carter. Ayton stays with his own man most of the time. Once again people expecting Ayton to guard multiple people on the same possession because of players blowing their own defensive assignments. Many times you can see AYton guarding his may towards the top of the 3 point line, while Carter and McCoy are right under the basket. I guess Ayton should have left his man open, and gone the 20 feet to help double Carter more (He did this a few times late in the game/video).

Dude I just watched it. I wasn't focusing on any player but Ayton and was watching his defense and what he was doing and he was right next to people often watching them score. Maybe it wasn't always his man, but he was in position to help without risking a pass to a guy he was on. That game doesn't matter though....many people do that in HS games....but some others were not. I've watched every AZ game already so I knew how he often was on defense....the more I forget about those things the better I feel about him.

I love Ayton though...his positives are huge. It's like Trae...I loved him as high as 3 because his offense was SO good that I think the net positive on offense outweighed the negative on defense a ton.

The positive thing is that Ayton has the athleticism and measurables to be a good defender....not sure about the motor/team defense iq but if he is as hard as worker as they say he is, he should improve.

The negative thing in relation to someone like Trae is that defense in the middle and at the rim is much more important than pg defense. Only a handful of point guards play good enough D to make much of a difference on the big point guards but not letting people finish at the rim is huge.

[lilfishi22]

Ayton is not a better 3 pt shooter than Doncic. No one should expect him to be. I concede that now and always

I don't think anyone has argued that. The argument is that some projects Ayton to be a legit 3PT threat but then looks at Doncic's 31%'s from 3 and think that's his peak as a shooter. It's not a comparison of their respective abilities, it's about fair projections.