The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[thamadkant]

Anyone watching Jason Tatum in the playoffs playing stellar defense? Here was the NBADraft.net main weakness--defensive motor.

Weaknesses: One of the first flaws that jump out in Tatum’s game is his inconsistent intensity on defense ... At times, he seems to just go through the motions defensively and didn't demonstrate the competitive desire to lock his man down.
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Tatum is much more similar to Doncic than Ayton. The most problematic thing about Ayton is not his motor, but lacks of defensive instincts. Shooting can be be improved with repetition, handling can be improved, people can get in much better shape, but instincts are much less likely to be improved. In pick&roll situations there is no time to think. You just have to see it and anticipate it. Kokoskov can teach Ayton basics, but Ayton will still have to take decisions alone in the court. Maybe he is that unaware because he started to play basketball late and had bad coaches, meaning he could improve massively, but at the moment he looks totally lost in the space. If you look his game, he’s taking wrong decisions or he’s taking decisions too late. Athlete like he, should dominate in D. in kids league even with bad motor and playing with half an effort. Game in Nba is that much faster, that his lack of instincts will be even more exposed.

This guy lol

Next... someone praises Marcus Smart because he's not very athletic but he plays with heart... and you will somehow mention Doncic and relate him to Smart.


I'm surprised you haven't compared Doncic to Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson because of their championship credential or something.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Pick 1 or 2 has failed to make All-Star 33 of the past 40 drafts.

So which bust factor is worse - Ayton's mentality or Doncic's athleticism?

[Don7]

Per Bleacher Report:

“I mean, he’s got all the game. He’s got all the mid-range. He’s got the pull-ups. He’s got the step backs. He’s great with the ball. He can run pick-and-rolls—which would suit him great here now since it’s a pick-and-roll league now anyway. I think he’s going to be great.”

“It seems like, to me, for a 19-year-old [he’s] really savvy. He’s already playing a great court game,” Nowitzki added.

“He’s going to be a little challenged, I think, athletically if he plays the 1,” Nowitzki noted. “He’s got enough size to play the 2, especially now with everybody going small anyways. I think he’d be okay.”

[NavLDO]

I haven't read a single(...ok, maybe I peeked at 3 or 4) post in this thread, but for me, and this is a complete 180 degrees from where I was 6-8 months ago, and that is, I'm slightly leaning Doncic, here.

Feel free to 'bash' my very basic and non-in-depth analysis here, but if we are going for a Big? I want a 'shutdown' Big (kind of like a 'shutdown corner' in the NFL...they don't exist...but you get my point)...I want a D-E-F-E-N-D-E-R in the paint, and Ayton just is not that guy...yet. A guy like Brandon McCoy from UNLV shouldn't have a 'career game' against Ayton (33 pts/10 Rebs,or something to that effect). I know, one game, but there were others...

Luka just seems like a special talent, to me, and a guy who will likely be 'special'; I personally do not get the same impression from Ayton.

Plus, look at KAT...or AD...or pick an Offensively-minded Center; they don't move the needle. Someone like a Gobert, moves the 'Needle', if you have the offensive fire power to support, and we have that in spades in Booker/Warren. We need Defense at the 5, not Offense, IMO.

Just my poor-man's analysis. I'd rather grab Doncic; he's a talent that can be special and move the needle IMO. If not, and I'm sure to get flamed for this, but trade down. Get what you can, which I'm assuming would be quite a haul, to move down a few spots, and grab Bamba. NOT because his combine, but because of who he his, and who he projects to be...a Gobert/Noel-like Talent.

I think AD is in a world to himself. He is arguably the best player in the league. If not, he's top 3-5 for sure. He can play defense which is what separates him.

'can play' and 'executes at a high level' are two different things, I think...but you are right, which further proves my point. In this day and age, you need a capable big, which we don't have, but we do NOT need to spend out #1 pick on another KAT that, by himself, is not going to 'move the needle'.

Grab Doncic at 1, take the BPA Big at 16, and walk away winners. And to go OT for a sec, honestly, THIS might be the year we need to double down, IMO. I would take EVERY asset we have not named Jackson, Booker, and Warren, so the future MIL and MIA picks, this year's MIA pick, Chriss and/or Bender...whatever it takes--don't care--to move up and see if we can't get JJJ, Carter, or Bamba after we select Doncic at #1. Now is the time to complete our young core, and bring in Vet's to fill in the holes. Carter would be ideal, IMO, with his length, ability to play both PF/C, and defensive-minded play, with not sacrificing offensive ability. And yes, let Booker run the point, until we figure out whether he or Doncic will be the better fit there.

Remember, Doncic is STILL going to need to be developed; he's far from a finished product. It just remains to be seen what we are going to develop him as...

But for now...

Booker/Doncic/Jackson/Warren/Carter

Let's roll with that and see where the holes are...what needs fixing with that, because there will need to be 'fixing'. Warren is not a natural '4', Booker is not a natural '1', but let's play that for awile, and see if we can't garner some interest from a Vet or 2 to come our way in FA.

[Mulhollanddrive]

The more I think about it the best fit for Doncic is at the 4.

[TheLogician]

We have the assets and cap room to move up and take both Ayton and Doncic. They have the same agent and Doncic has leverage playing overseas. He could pull a Kobe and help us trade for his draft rights. I know we have a conspiracy thread for this stuff but it would be shocking if the front office hadn't discussed this possibility.

[Bob8]

Anyone watching Jason Tatum in the playoffs playing stellar defense? Here was the NBADraft.net main weakness--defensive motor.

Weaknesses: One of the first flaws that jump out in Tatum’s game is his inconsistent intensity on defense ... At times, he seems to just go through the motions defensively and didn't demonstrate the competitive desire to lock his man down.
\\

Tatum is much more similar to Doncic than Ayton. The most problematic thing about Ayton is not his motor, but lacks of defensive instincts. Shooting can be be improved with repetition, handling can be improved, people can get in much better shape, but instincts are much less likely to be improved. In pick&roll situations there is no time to think. You just have to see it and anticipate it. Kokoskov can teach Ayton basics, but Ayton will still have to take decisions alone in the court. Maybe he is that unaware because he started to play basketball late and had bad coaches, meaning he could improve massively, but at the moment he looks totally lost in the space. If you look his game, he’s taking wrong decisions or he’s taking decisions too late. Athlete like he, should dominate in D. in kids league even with bad motor and playing with half an effort. Game in Nba is that much faster, that his lack of instincts will be even more exposed.

This guy lol

Next... someone praises Marcus Smart because he's not very athletic but he plays with heart... and you will somehow mention Doncic and relate him to Smart.


I'm surprised you haven't compared Doncic to Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson because of their championship credential or something.

Tatum 6’8”, Doncic 6’8”. Tatum’s Weaknesses before draft: Although Tatum’s skill set is impressive, he’s not an athlete of the highest tier, which makes it tougher to draw a direct through-line to NBA success. Pretty similar worries, if you ask me.

Please explain me how Ayton, athletic freak, is similar to Tatum?

[Bob8]

Pick 1 or 2 has failed to make All-Star 33 of the past 40 drafts.

So which bust factor is worse - Ayton's mentality or Doncic's athleticism?

Or you can ask yourself differently, who has showed more/enough that we don’t need to worry about bust factor?

Lack of basketball instincts is not mentality issue anyway.

[Bob8]

We have the assets and cap room to move up and take both Ayton and Doncic. They have the same agent and Doncic has leverage playing overseas. He could pull a Kobe and help us trade for his draft rights. I know we have a conspiracy thread for this stuff but it would be shocking if the front office hadn't discussed this possibility.

No way Suns get both, they are too good prospects. And after Luka winning everything possible in Europe and has gotten all individual awards possible, nobody will buy his bluff. He is coming 100%.

[Kerrsed]

[Archx]

I am a huge Doncic fan but Bob8 is really pushing the limits on these forums lol... If you constantly force one guy to everyone you will just make people like him even less. I mean people have opinions but being so stubborn and aggressive is just not productive. Let people make up their own minds and also let his game speak for himself. No point arguing same things over and over again.

Tatum has proven he can play in the NBA and Doncic wasn't even drafted yet. You can't compare his game to someone and say he is better already or will be better. Same goes for Ayton. People now making claims he is David Robinson 2.0 but we all know how good Robinson was on defense and Ayton is no where close to that.

[Bob8]

I am a huge Doncic fan but Bob8 is really pushing the limits on these forums lol... If you constantly force one guy to everyone you will just make people like him even less. I mean people have opinions but being so stubborn and aggressive is just not productive. Let people make up their own minds and also let his game speak for himself. No point arguing same things over and over again.

Tatum has proven he can play in the NBA and Doncic wasn't even drafted yet. You can't compare his game to someone and say he is better already or will be better. Same goes for Ayton. People now making claims he is David Robinson 2.0 but we all know how good Robinson was on defense and Ayton is no where close to that.

where I said anything about Doncic being better than Tatum? I just said they both have similar physics and were projected as bad athletes. I even don’t believe that Doncic is some kind generational talent, just that he will be better in Suns that Ayton. If Doncic becomes around 40% shooter, he will probably become All Star and will help his team winning many games. But he will never be superstar.

[Archx]

where I said anything about Doncic being better than Tatum? I just said they both have similar physics and were projected as bad athletes. I even don’t believe that Doncic is some kind generational talent, just that he will be better in Suns that Ayton. If Doncic becomes around 40% shooter, he will probably become All Star and will help his team winning many games. But he will never be superstar.

He will be a much better shooter than 40%. In EU he has to create shots for himself no one else does it for him. It is much much harder to space the floor like in the NBA. I see him playing SF position in combination of running point aswell. Also he is not a high volume shooter. He scores only when he feels his team needs him to or if Laso runs plays just for him. Other than that he won't shoot as much as Harden for example. So his FG % has a potential to be much better.

But my point was, forcing Doncic to Suns fans is pointless in my opinion because they want Ayton. It is their home boy and they would buy tickets to watch him. So it would make much more sense to argue on Kings forums if he is going to be better than Ayton for example.

[Bob8]

where I said anything about Doncic being better than Tatum? I just said they both have similar physics and were projected as bad athletes. I even don’t believe that Doncic is some kind generational talent, just that he will be better in Suns that Ayton. If Doncic becomes around 40% shooter, he will probably become All Star and will help his team winning many games. But he will never be superstar.

He will be a much better shooter than 40%. In EU he has to create shots for himself no one else does it for him. It is much much harder to space the floor like in the NBA. I see him playing SF position in combination of running point aswell. Also he is not a high volume shooter. He scores only when he feels his team needs him to or if Laso runs plays just for him. Other than that he won't shoot as much as Harden for example. So his FG % has a potential to be much better.

But my point was, forcing Doncic to Suns fans is pointless in my opinion because they want Ayton. It is their home boy and they would buy tickets to watch him. So it would make much more sense to argue on Kings forums if he is going to be better than Ayton for example.

Maybe but I hope he doesn’t end there.

[TheLogician]

Tatum looked better in every way besides passing, imo. I don't think Luka will be more valuable than a traditional PG when it comes to facilitating, so this is just a bonus for a wing. He will need to become a knock down three point shooter to even sniff an all-star game. 37% like I predict is borderline but on a winning team he would definitely make a few.

Watch on YouTube

[lilfishi22]

A 30% 3pt shooter off the ball.

You can take highlights and make anyone loOk like a star. But then you look at the stats and its like EEEEW

31.1 was his owerall 3 points % in Eurobasket. He was good enough to help gold for Slovenia, who was 30:1 before tournament and was selected in first team of Eurobasket.

In EuroLeague he’s shooting 33%. Without half court attempts 35.3%.

http://overbasket.com/rsplayers.php?tab=9&year=2017&pcode=005929&cmp=EL

Btw. your avatar was shooting 25% in Euroleague, being 22 years old. In Nba he’s shooting 37%.

Im happy with either. IMO Doncic is the risky choice and I dont really want another wing whos 3pt may or may not pan out especially at the volume in which he chucks them up there. Kinda want to get the skilled center that I think will take pressure off the wings we already have. We have never had a great center and I think it will help us more.

either or tho. Doncic just spooks me more.

Shooting is the easiest skill to improve. The fact that he has a great shooting form, a high spot up shooting %, likely a lot more spacing in the NBA and a great FT% shows he has a very good chance he can improve to be a .350+ 3pt% on good volume in the NBA.

I'm more concerned about his defence and shot generation than his shooting. Also personally I think this obsession with getting a center because "we've never had one" is not a logical reason one esp considering the current NBA game that's clearly favouring wing initiators.

[King4Day]

We have the assets and cap room to move up and take both Ayton and Doncic. They have the same agent and Doncic has leverage playing overseas. He could pull a Kobe and help us trade for his draft rights. I know we have a conspiracy thread for this stuff but it would be shocking if the front office hadn't discussed this possibility.

No doubt they have. I just can't see another team giving up a top pick knowing their fanbase will be excited about it.

Even the Griz fan from yesterday pointed that out. Memphis fans know they have no chance to win with the core they have. Even if they got cap relief for Parsons, nobody is going there.

[King4Day]

We have the assets and cap room to move up and take both Ayton and Doncic. They have the same agent and Doncic has leverage playing overseas. He could pull a Kobe and help us trade for his draft rights. I know we have a conspiracy thread for this stuff but it would be shocking if the front office hadn't discussed this possibility.

No way Suns get both, they are too good prospects. And after Luka winning everything possible in Europe and has gotten all individual awards possible, nobody will buy his bluff. He is coming 100%.

Even if he doesn't, unless he pulled himself from the draft (costing himself millions), teams will wait him out if he stays overseas.

[mabundo_nagumbe]

If you look at the past draft, has it ever happend that the best two prospect in the draft ended up in the same team? If that is not the case, what about two from the top 5 prospects ended in the same team? Did it ever happen?
Btw, I'm not trying to say that because it never happend before, it will not happen now, I'm just curious.

[JPF]

Here's Cole Zwicker of The Stepien on EOTS (top of article): http://arizonasports.com/story/1535612/nba-draft-big-board-5-0-deandre-ayton-luka-doncic/?show=comments#comments

Can someone explain how Doncic was under-utilized if he was Real's best player and has been in the system for four years? Wouldn't the coach know how to use him and how not to use him?

Dončič wasn't under-utilised, however that description might have come from someone that is surprised by the basketball phylosophy in europe.
Top guys over here rarely get up to 20 shot attempts per game. Let alone game after game. The differences in defensive rules, smaller court, shorter 3 pointer, while having worse, slower offensive talents makes it easier to focus on one guy and lock him down.
Heavy usage of the best player in the team is therefor something most teams try to avoid, as long as there might be some easier offensive options out there, some potential missmatch and there is enough time on the clock.

Game 2 in playoffs against Panathinaikos was an example, where Panathinaikos was constantly tireing Dončič down with full court press whenever he got the ball, switching one fresh defender after another, running him through meaningless screens with an intention to waste his energy. Real's coach Laso, than decided to exclude Luka from executing plays, but try to use that focus he was getting through other players that would benefit from the freed space on court.

Most observers in that case would claim Luka was heavily under-utilised, since there weren't many plays run through him by either NBA or NCAA standards, but overall that's just a specific thing with european basketball.