The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[kingstyyyle]

Yeah, i read that teams drafting high are scared s***less to draft guys without seeing medicals. They want to make sure EVERYTHING is structurally sound so you wont go down 2 years down the line. Like it is a really big deal.

Also kinda funny, When Luka told the media that he wasnt sure if this was his last season in the Euroleague, people tried to brush it off as him being polite and saying the right thing to the media when he was put on the spot, yet the Kings FO had a sit down with Duffy at the Combine in private and still didnt get any kind of answer, instead telling the media person who reported it that they would "Circle back with him at a later date". No need for Duffy to be polite for fans (Specially when none are there) or "Save face in the media" when none were present. SOunds like to me they got the brush off. This was a day or two before the report that they wernt so high on him and were really liking Porter Jr. I wonder if they got the impression from Duffy that he wouldnt be in Sactown, and the report of them not being high on him and liking someone else more is to save face with the rest of the league along with their fans. Like we didnt draft him because we liked Porter better, not because he wouldnt player here because our town/organization sucks.

That's what I took as the reason for all this Doncic falling talk. Teams aren't going to take a chance with a guy who may not come over if he doesn't like who he's drafted by. With all the 'connections' Sactown have to the European game (Peja, Divac, Bogdan) and a clear need for an elite secondary initiator, if Doncic still doesn't want to go there, I wonder if the Slovenian equivalent of the word dumpster fire is what he thinks of them lol

Sounds like something Kerrsed made up, although I’d love for the user to provide a link to whatever he’s saying.

All reports from Doncic/Duffy in English and Slovenian that I’ve read have either been positive or non committal.

The Suns organization has been a dumpster fire, and I’d much rather live in Sacramento than barren Phoenix, but that’s not what this board should be for. No need to attack other orgs, Kings fans have had their fill of this

Calling the 5th largest city in the US 'barren" clearly shows your lack of knowledge or you're just trolling.

[WeekapaugGroove]

And where did you see someone mention back to the basket ? Davis is a low post thread so the analogy is just perfect.

When JoRain is referring to 'low post offense' that is a post up. I don't believe he was saying you don't want good big men just that you dont' want to lean too heavy on a post up offense.

Just for fun here's some stats on that.

Davis in the regular season ran 4.7 post ups per game and scored .97 per possession on those plays.

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

Now you mention Capella, his best use is as a P&R roll man. They ran 3.9 plays a game where he got the ball in that situation and scored 1.34 per possession.

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

So by the numbers P&R with Capella is a much better play than throwing it into the post to Anthony Davis.

Of course no one is arguing that you would rather have Capella over Davis because obviously Davis can do so many other things.


This whole 'post' debate isn't that you don't want talented bigs it's just that you want them to be able to different things than you did 20 years ago.

And no I don't think building an offense based on post scoring is an efficient and good offense.

So, let' just ignore Capella is setup for open dunks, and Davis is double/tripple teamed. Indeed, times have changed if post scoring is considered inefficient offense, used to be quite the opposite.

Whatever is the meaning of 'low post offense' I don't get why bringing it in this thread. Ayton is far from a back to the basket guy.

I'm not trying to be a dick just pointing out that running an offense on post up play is just not that efficient and that was JoRains original point that you responded to.

I think your response was a good example of what people get wrong with this debate. Saying running post offense isn't efficient is not saying you don't want a good big man or that you don't want to score close to the basket. I think many people make a false equivalency with this.

Your comment about Capella getting dunks is spot on. I would much rather run a play that ends with him dunking than I would throwing it to Davis and having him run a post up.


Dan Dantoni has a funny rant on shooting 3's vs post play.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/12/29/14115482/marshall-basketball-analytics-dan-dantoni-shut-down-reporter

[ATTL]

I was high on Anthony Randolph? I honestly can't even remember.

Randolph was MY guy...Always drafted him in fantasy with my last pick, took him in that 'build-a-team' thing we did once, then every trade deadline/free agency I wanted him.

It will be inscribed on my tombstone "Anthony Randolph Has Upside"

To be fair, he was a lot of peoples guys, just not really mine.

I remember reading that the warriors were paying people to hype up their players online.

[BoogieTime]

That's what I took as the reason for all this Doncic falling talk. Teams aren't going to take a chance with a guy who may not come over if he doesn't like who he's drafted by. With all the 'connections' Sactown have to the European game (Peja, Divac, Bogdan) and a clear need for an elite secondary initiator, if Doncic still doesn't want to go there, I wonder if the Slovenian equivalent of the word dumpster fire is what he thinks of them lol

Sounds like something Kerrsed made up, although I’d love for the user to provide a link to whatever he’s saying.

All reports from Doncic/Duffy in English and Slovenian that I’ve read have either been positive or non committal.

The Suns organization has been a dumpster fire, and I’d much rather live in Sacramento than barren Phoenix, but that’s not what this board should be for. No need to attack other orgs, Kings fans have had their fill of this

Calling the 5th largest city in the US 'barren" clearly shows your lack of knowledge or you're just trolling.

It was meant to be a descriptive of the harsh climate

[JMac1]

I have a question - is there really any value left in low post scoring and does having a low post thread actually makes team better? because it seems that it does the opposite. moneyball has changed the game in the way that having a low post presence, no matter how dominant is actually hurting the team.
I'm still on the Doncic train and probably will stay there till the draft, but if we draft Ayton and seeing how Kokoskov built Slovenia team, his value is going to be in high post, where his passing, decision making and jump shooting is going to be the most valuable. how good is he going to be is going to determine his value. Slovenia had very average big men, but they could pass, shoot and drive which made them very effective in Kokoskovs scheme. If Ayton could actually learn to dribble and drive, and make right decisions, offensively he could become unstoppable. Unfortunately for now, his ball handling and driving abilities are pretty much non existent. he has good foorwork though, so there's hope.

No, I'm sure the Rockets will be worse with Anthony Davis instead of Capela.

Davis isn't exactly a back to the basket post guy though so that's a bad analogy.


Interesting thing about people complaining about both GS and Houstons style is they play very different brands of basketball. GS is very motion heavy and they had one of the highest passes per position ranks in the league where as Houston is ISO heavy with one of the lowest.


As far as Ayton and Doncic go I think they are both fine in the modern game. Doncic' skill set obviously fits. Ayton has the potential to do a lot of different things on O so it's not like they would have to just dump it into the post with him.

No one is complaining about Hou and GS style of play, just pointing out the fact that the teams are struggling to score when the screws are tightened on the perimeter; and there is no inside presence to lighten it up or make scoring easier in the closing moments.

[Bob8]

Luka just continues, https://www.eurohoops.net/en/acb/683241/doncic-on-his-nba-decision-everything-is-open-i-still-have-to-win-the-spanish-supercopa/

Maybe he and Duffy really have some secret agenda.

[Mjee]

Luka just continues, https://www.eurohoops.net/en/acb/683241/doncic-on-his-nba-decision-everything-is-open-i-still-have-to-win-the-spanish-supercopa/

Maybe he and Duffy really have some secret agenda.

It would be amazing to draft both Ayton and Doncic

[Archx]

Luka just continues, https://www.eurohoops.net/en/acb/683241/doncic-on-his-nba-decision-everything-is-open-i-still-have-to-win-the-spanish-supercopa/

Maybe he and Duffy really have some secret agenda.

It would be amazing to draft both Ayton and Doncic

David Stern would come out of hiding and veto the draft

[DirtyDez]

Does anyone else not give two craps about the Warriors/Rockets effect on the Suns draft?

[bwgood77]

Heaps of Doncic supporters use small ball as the reason to go for him, but now watching the Rockets and Warriors... people still think he can get pass defenders that are putting that much pressure on him? And on the other side... he would just get burnt a lot.

he's a combo forward, not a guard.. you can hide him against the Saric, Mirotic, Anderson, Chriss, Horford, Morris... etc... basically slow forwards or PF/Cs....



Now imagine if Rockets had a Davis or Towns there... theres no way Warriors would go small ball, Green would be guarding a much bigger man who has offensive skills one on one.... they'd have to put Looney, McGee and West and that eases the pressure.

On the other hand, I'm preety sure GSW would still sweep NO or/and MIN

They beat AD and NO in 5 already..fairly easily....NO also had good perimeter defenders.

[BobbieL]

Does anyone else not give two craps about the Warriors/Rockets effect on the Suns draft?

I only care in the sense that if Houston loses and wants LeBron they might have to cut salary -- and the Suns could than take PJ and Gordon for Daniels and a second rounder - that would save the Rockets 17m large

It would eat up all the Suns cap space of course - no real other moves unless you attach picks to Chandler Dudley, Warren type trades - but Tucker and Gordon - not bad to me.

[Superhuman]

Does anyone else not give two craps about the Warriors/Rockets effect on the Suns draft?

Exactly. Trying to replicate small ball just because those teams have been successful with it is impossible with the players we have, even if we draft Doncic. Warriors and the Rockets have multiple HOF and generational players. Just because players like Davis, Embiid, KAT are not in the conference finals right now doesn't mean the center position is dying. The centers of old like Al Jefferon or Hibbert type players sure, but not the new age center. Let these young big men get older, develop, and they should be fine. Having a threat down low and outisde like Ayton will only open up threes for the rest of the team, which everyone loves these days and is a big reason why GSW/HOU is so successful.

[sunsbg]

When JoRain is referring to 'low post offense' that is a post up. I don't believe he was saying you don't want good big men just that you dont' want to lean too heavy on a post up offense.

Just for fun here's some stats on that.

Davis in the regular season ran 4.7 post ups per game and scored .97 per possession on those plays.

https://stats.nba.com/players/playtype-post-up/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

Now you mention Capella, his best use is as a P&R roll man. They ran 3.9 plays a game where he got the ball in that situation and scored 1.34 per possession.

https://stats.nba.com/players/roll-man/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PossG&dir=1

So by the numbers P&R with Capella is a much better play than throwing it into the post to Anthony Davis.

Of course no one is arguing that you would rather have Capella over Davis because obviously Davis can do so many other things.


This whole 'post' debate isn't that you don't want talented bigs it's just that you want them to be able to different things than you did 20 years ago.

And no I don't think building an offense based on post scoring is an efficient and good offense.

So, let' just ignore Capella is setup for open dunks, and Davis is double/tripple teamed. Indeed, times have changed if post scoring is considered inefficient offense, used to be quite the opposite.

Whatever is the meaning of 'low post offense' I don't get why bringing it in this thread. Ayton is far from a back to the basket guy.

I'm not trying to be a dick just pointing out that running an offense on post up play is just not that efficient and that was JoRains original point that you responded to.

I think your response was a good example of what people get wrong with this debate. Saying running post offense isn't efficient is not saying you don't want a good big man or that you don't want to score close to the basket. I think many people make a false equivalency with this.

Your comment about Capella getting dunks is spot on. I would much rather run a play that ends with him dunking than I would throwing it to Davis and having him run a post up.


Dan Dantoni has a funny rant on shooting 3's vs post play.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/12/29/14115482/marshall-basketball-analytics-dan-dantoni-shut-down-reporter

So, just get Ayton and get him dunks ? Looks like there is no disagreement here.

[TheXgasm]

Is someone actually trying to say that Sacramento is better than Phoenix?

[SkinnyOMiller]

... I’d much rather live in Sacramento...

I can honestly say I've never seen nor heard those 6 words ever uttered before.

From people living in Sacramento? There is literally nothing wrong with the city unless you want big city nightlife. Great weather, close to ocean, Tahoe, Napa, Bay Area etc. id prefer living here to some of the metropolises with greater traffic and pollution etc

Sacramento has some of the worst air quality in the country. That whole region has some of the highest ozone pollution levels in the U.S.


http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/04/18/sacramento-worst-ozone-pollution/


Sacramento also has some of the most congested roads in the country so I really don't know what you're talking about.

http://amp.sacbee.com/news/local/transportation/article66529747.html




The best thing that Sacramento has going for it is that there are nicer places 2-3 hours away.

[TheXgasm]

Phoenix statistically has maybe the best traffic of any major city in the country. This broy just don't know.

[BoogieTime]

I can honestly say I've never seen nor heard those 6 words ever uttered before.

From people living in Sacramento? There is literally nothing wrong with the city unless you want big city nightlife. Great weather, close to ocean, Tahoe, Napa, Bay Area etc. id prefer living here to some of the metropolises with greater traffic and pollution etc

Sacramento has some of the worst air quality in the country. That whole region has some of the highest ozone pollution levels in the U.S.


http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2018/04/18/sacramento-worst-ozone-pollution/


Sacramento also has some of the most congested roads in the country so I really don't know what you're talking about.

http://amp.sacbee.com/news/local/transportation/article66529747.html




The best thing that Sacramento has going for it is that there are nicer places 2-3 hours away.

+1. I suppose that depends where you live in the area but I’ll note that going forward not that Phoenix is much better on that list. Though the traffic site you mention doesn’t indicate Phoenix traffic as a whole is not worse. But I wasn’t aware of the pollution of some counties/areas here.

I still think the weather is a lot superior here as well as the traffic, in conjunction with the areas around it

[saintEscaton]

Phoenix is a glorified commuting hub with tasteless architecture and next to nothing to do. I think most would bolt for greener pastures if given the choice.

[TheXgasm]

Phoenix is a glorified commuting hub with tasteless architecture and next to nothing to do. I think most would bolt for greener pastures if given the choice.

Considering the massive influx of transient population TO Phoenix as opposed to away from, and considering this place is dope, all signs point to you being completely wrong. "Tasteless architecture", take a look at Frank Lloyd Wright over here

[saintEscaton]

Phoenix is a glorified commuting hub with tasteless architecture and next to nothing to do. I think most would bolt for greener pastures if given the choice.

Considering the massive influx of transient population TO Phoenix as opposed to away from, and considering this place is dope, all signs point to you being completely wrong. "Tasteless architecture", take a look at Frank Lloyd Wright over here

Affordable cost of living and most of that influx are Californians who got outpriced by soaring rents/technie gentrification. Law enforcement is a real pain in the a*s and the city is a infernal cultural wasteland/testament to man's arrogance without quality restaurants , museums and markets. I get the case for the Sonoran and natural spots of Arizona but Phoenix? Come on now. I guess the street murals are nice