The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[Kerrsed]

Don7 and Bob8 are obviously the same person.

Yeah , we both like Luka , must be the same person.And not once did i mention Ayton or say anything negative about him , because i like him as prospect.Obviously not as much like Luka , but no reason to put DeAndre down.

ACB posted new video about Luka , i posted it and next question was "where are the misses?" like ****..People are unfair to both of them.Ten years ago i cant imagine what would people write about Harden and his 3/18 FG flamout in NCAA tournament.

Seems to me that everybody is mentally prepare for Ayton because he seems to be a choice (i am pretty sure) so its easier to nitpick Doncic.I guess if ther was indication that he was the preferred choice , Ayton would get the same treatment.

I have to stop you right there, Ayton gets just as much flack on this board as Doncic does.

[BobbieL]

Don7 and Bob8 are obviously the same person.

Yeah , we both like Luka , must be the same person.And not once did i mention Ayton or say anything negative about him , because i like him as prospect.Obviously not as much like Luka , but no reason to put DeAndre down.

ACB posted new video about Luka , i posted it and next question was "where are the misses?" like ****..People are unfair to both of them.Ten years ago i cant imagine what would people write about Harden and his 3/18 FG flamout in NCAA tournament.

Seems to me that everybody is mentally prepare for Ayton because he seems to be a choice (i am pretty sure) so its easier to nitpick Doncic.I guess if ther was indication that he was the preferred choice , Ayton would get the same treatment.

I have to stop you right there, Ayton gets just as much flack on this board as Doncic does.

i just hope my points about wanting Luka were not diminishing Ayton

I will be happy with both players. Ask me each day, probably will have a different answer as I see the value that both can bring to the table. If AVery Johnson were correct that he thinks Ayton is Robinson with a jumper or as others have compared him to Olajuwon, sign me up today!

[Don7]

Er...don't think so but it doesn't matter.

Discussion is mostly about his fit in today's nba.

[bwgood77]

but big is not necessary a good thing, is he thick because he is big boned or is it because he is simply chabby because he likes snacks too much, like Chriss in the summer league last year? like Star Lord Doncic is a sandwich from being fat, his arms have no tone and definition. you know who Doncic's body reminds me of? Brian Cardinal.

near 6’9”, 230 guard/point forward is for sure bad thing.

not if he is expected to play point guard and has Brian Cardinal's athleticism. The people who want us to draft Doncic, another wing on top of the 4 we already have (Booker, Warren, JJ, Bender) are those who said we should not draft Tatum because he was too similar to Warren or we should not draft Murray or Buddy Hield because they played the same position as Booker. Why are we stacking wings again like we stacked undersized Point guards a few year back? Have we even asked JJ and Booker if they like the idea of sharing the ball with another initiator like we asked Bledsoe and Goran if they wanted another PG to take the ball out of their hand. Suns fans never learn, long jam hurts chemistry because everyone is unhappy with situation.

When you have two equally talented prospects one plays the position you need and one plays the position you are stacked you pick the one you need. pick need over talent is bad if you are reaching to pick a less talented player over more talented ones based on need, not when they are rated equally talent wise and arguably most experts believe Ayton is the more talented safer pick.

Those who are hyping up Doncic like the next Lebron are the exact same people who said Bender would be the greatest can't miss transcendent generational multiple dimensional international star greater than Dirk based on some star trek level metric and statistic system developed by aliens far more advanced than human.

The whole point about playing three wings is advantageous because defensive versatility of the the lineup could be a good counter measure to limit mismatching against switching in the modern era makes no sense to me. When Doncic is such a bad defender he will be a bad defender no matter who he gets switched to defensively. Doncic can't guard players his size because his lack of lateral quickness, and he still can't guard guards smaller than him because of his lack of speed.

No one said this, at least not here.

As far as defense, Ayton had far more problems defensively than Doncic did, in an easier league even.

[sunsbg]

Er...don't think so but it doesn't matter.

Discussion is mostly about his fit in today's nba.

What is wrong with his fit ? He is not a back to the basket C, which we discussed yesterday if you read earlier posts.

[bigfoot]

So what do folks expect Ayton's stat line to be next season ... something like 13p/8r/1b/1a sound reasonable??

[bwgood77]

I don't understand why posters feel the **** all over their non-preferred prospect. In most drafts, IMO, all of Ayton/Doncic/Bagley/Jackson/Bamba/Young would be in consideration for the #1 pick. This draft is just that good.

Personally, I'm convinced we'll select Ayton. I think if Doncic slips to 4, and the Grizzlies aren't in love, we will have a very strong offer prepared for them. The big concern there - as we've discussed - would be having to hand out two max contracts in the same summer to Ayton and Doncic. But if it works, that's rings, fellas.

because no matte how good a draft is a darko milicic will always be lurking in the dark waiting to prey on a unfortunate team and no team wants to be the Pistons. I am passionate about it because I feel like Doncic is the Darko this year. Many Doncic fanatics want to convince you Ayton is Sam Bowie but Ayton is more likely to be Olajuwon. I accept that there is a chance Ayton will be a bust, there is a chance for every talent prospect to become a bust for many unforeseeable reasons including injuries, what I don't like is how Doncic fanatics think Doncic is this can't miss impossible to bust super talent next lebron who likes to nitpick every problem Ayton has but downplay Doncic's world of shortcomings that give him as much chance to bust as everyone else. They try to convince us How perfect Doncic is with some highlight reels with him schooling some third rate European players, if we judge a player by his highlight reels only Cedi Osman would be just as great as Doncic is since there are tons of video of him playing like Simmons as well.

If you look in the mirror, you are becoming the most irrational nitpicker, comparing Doncic to Milicic and Cardinal. I don't think anyone or at least many people here expect Ayton to bust. I've seen more people mention it about Doncic.

Many people slightly prefer one over the other or have it a near toss up and some others prefer one to a larger degree but still really like the other. There are only a handful of people really downplaying the other, yourself included. There are some slight concerns about either prospect, but many variables and facts about both prospects make them each elite prospects, whether it be the elite intangibles and court vision, winning mentality, youngest MVP winner ever for Doncic or the near unprecedented size+athleticism+shooting touch and scoring moves combined with elite rebounding from Ayton.

[BobbieL]

I don't understand why posters feel the **** all over their non-preferred prospect. In most drafts, IMO, all of Ayton/Doncic/Bagley/Jackson/Bamba/Young would be in consideration for the #1 pick. This draft is just that good.

Personally, I'm convinced we'll select Ayton. I think if Doncic slips to 4, and the Grizzlies aren't in love, we will have a very strong offer prepared for them. The big concern there - as we've discussed - would be having to hand out two max contracts in the same summer to Ayton and Doncic. But if it works, that's rings, fellas.

because no matte how good a draft is a darko milicic will always be lurking in the dark waiting to prey on a unfortunate team and no team wants to be the Pistons. I am passionate about it because I feel like Doncic is the Darko this year. Many Doncic fanatics want to convince you Ayton is Sam Bowie but Ayton is more likely to be Olajuwon. I accept that there is a chance Ayton will be a bust, there is a chance for every talent prospect to become a bust for many unforeseeable reasons including injuries, what I don't like is how Doncic fanatics think Doncic is this can't miss impossible to bust super talent next lebron who likes to nitpick every problem Ayton has but downplay Doncic's world of shortcomings that give him as much chance to bust as everyone else. They try to convince us How perfect Doncic is with some highlight reels with him schooling some third rate European players, if we judge a player by his highlight reels only Cedi Osman would be just as great as Doncic is since there are tons of video of him playing like Simmons as well.

If you look in the mirror, you are becoming the most irrational nitpicker, comparing Doncic to Milicic and Cardinal. I don't think anyone or at least many people here expect Ayton to bust. I've seen more people mention it about Doncic.

Many people slightly prefer one over the other or have it a near toss up and some others prefer one to a larger degree but still really like the other. There are only a handful of people really downplaying the other. There are some slight concerns about either prospect, but many variables and facts about both prospects make them each elite prospects, whether it be the elite intangibles and court vision, winning mentality, youngest MVP winner ever for Doncic or the near unprecedented size+athleticism+shooting touch and scoring moves combined with elite rebounding from Ayton.

About Ayton and rebounding - this is very key as in reading about how players in previous drafts project to the NBA level from college - it has been mentioned that rebounding - from college to pro's - transitions well. Meaning if you can rebound well in college, probably will do in the NBA> Granted, still needs work on defense, Ayton - but so does Doncic, Bagley, and many many others.

If Ryan and crew do their due dilligence and truly aren't locked in but let the research show the best prospect - Suns cannot go wrong

[Don7]

Er...don't think so but it doesn't matter.

Discussion is mostly about his fit in today's nba.

What is wrong with his fit ? He is not a back to the basket C, which we discussed yesterday if you read earlier posts.

Didn't say it was anything wrong.

[bigfoot]

Er...don't think so but it doesn't matter.

Discussion is mostly about his fit in today's nba.

What is wrong with his fit ? He is not a back to the basket C, which we discussed yesterday if you read earlier posts.

The fit I'm concerned with is staying on the court and longevity. Only eight centers played 29 minutes or more in league last season. So over two-thirds of the league centers are playing barely half a game or under.

1) Can he cover the pick-n-roll so that at end of games, he is on the court.
2) Physically can the big man play 36+ minutes for 82 games + playoffs
3) Can he do that at the higher pace that is being played currently
4) Will he remain thin and athletic or bulk up like Shaq and slow down
5) Dollars expended per minute played
6) Propensity for bigs to get hurt (Len, Noel, Embiid, Oden, Cousins, Amare)
7) Elite defense, dribbling, passing, and shooting at 3pt range will take 2-3 years to develop
8) He has a lot to work on between skills and learning new offense/defense

[Kerrsed]

As for what i see in the Conference Finals:

Houston with 2 top 10 players CP3 & Harden (With one always in the running for MVP). Besides running a 2 PG system, traditional line up. (CP3@PG, Harden@SG, Ariza@SF, Tucker@PF, Capella@C) Sure Tucker is very short for a PF, but he has long arms that make up for it. Also helps that Ariza is 6"9 (Which is about average for a PF), making it easy to switch on D. The real strange thing is that Dantoni has gone from a more spread the ball team orientated system, to one that is very very ISO relient, but that comes with having 2 great ISO scorers on your team. Its all about maximizing the talent you have and creating a system to fit that talent and make them successful. Thats supposedly something that Kokosov is very very good at.

Warriors with 2 top 10 players in Curry & Durant. The quintessential Small Ball team. Wasnt always like this when they had Bogut at C and still won a title, and even today it still isnt that small. (Curry@PG, Klay@SG, Durant@SF, Green@PF, Pachulia@C) once again, sure Green is a SF playing PF, but he has the body for it. Helps that Durant is tall for a SF with a HUGE wingspan. Now against the Rockets they have gone smaller (Pachulia has nothing on Capella) and inserted Iggy in to the starting 5, but for most the season it was either Zaza or McGee starting at the 5 spot. I think when it comes to GS, you have to find another way to beat them, as if you dont have as good of players as them, then dont expect to beat them at their own game. Remember when the Suns were the 7 seconds or less small ball team? We had GREAT players to do it. Our opponents would TRY to go small to match us, but it never worked, as their players wernt as good and they were not beating us at our own game. Who did all the time? The Spurs with their very very traditional line-up. They were the 1st to really show that you can beat small ball teams without having to resort to trying to go small yourself.

Cav's with 1 of the greatest players of all time.......and Love i guess. Small Ball-ish line up yet still pretty traditional (Besides Lebron pretty much controlling the ball and every aspect of the game. During the season it was TT @ C, Love @ PF and Lebron @ SF, but switched up to surround Lebron with shooters. Works fine but helps that Love has the size of a C, standing 6"10 and a husky 250lbs. (Hill@PG, Smith@SG, Korver@SF, Lebron@PF, Love@C). Cavs whole premise is Lebron always has the ball and if he cant do anything, gives it up to one of the 4 shooters that surround him.

Celtics with no top players (Playing that is; Irving is close). Closest right now is Horford. Otherwise they have been able to make due while utilizing a traditional line up (Rozier@PG, Brown@SG, Tatum@SF, Horford@PF, Baynes@C). No superstars like all the other teams, just great team basketball. A real "Organic" kinda team. No small ball, no hybrid system, just good old traditional basketball that works great despite not having any real star players involved. I think that this is going to be the way that we try to go. We are not a star destination and wont be until we can grow our own players into them.

[Kerrsed]

So what do folks expect Ayton's stat line to be next season ... something like 13p/8r/1b/1a sound reasonable??

Im going with 18/10/2 with a block per game. Very similar to KAT.

[bwgood77]

As for what i see in the Conference Finals:

Houston with 2 top 10 players CP3 & Harden (With one always in the running for MVP). Besides running a 2 PG system, traditional line up. (CP3@PG, Harden@SG, Ariza@SF, Tucker@PF, Capella@C) Sure Tucker is very short for a PF, but he has long arms that make up for it. Also helps that Ariza is 6"9 (Which is about average for a PF), making it easy to switch on D. The real strange thing is that Dantoni has gone from a more spread the ball team orientated system, to one that is very very ISO relient, but that comes with having 2 great ISO scorers on your team. Its all about maximizing the talent you have and creating a system to fit that talent and make them successful. Thats supposedly something that Kokosov is very very good at.

Warriors with 2 top 10 players in Curry & Durant. The quintessential Small Ball team. Wasnt always like this when they had Bogut at C and still won a title, and even today it still isnt that small. (Curry@PG, Klay@SG, Durant@SF, Green@PF, Pachulia@C) once again, sure Green is a SF playing PF, but he has the body for it. Helps that Durant is tall for a SF with a HUGE wingspan. Now against the Rockets they have gone smaller (Pachulia has nothing on Capella) and inserted Iggy in to the starting 5, but for most the season it was either Zaza or McGee starting at the 5 spot. I think when it comes to GS, you have to find another way to beat them, as if you dont have as good of players as them, then dont expect to beat them at their own game. Remember when the Suns were the 7 seconds or less small ball team? We had GREAT players to do it. Our opponents would TRY to go small to match us, but it never worked, as their players wernt as good and they were not beating us at our own game. Who did all the time? The Spurs with their very very traditional line-up. They were the 1st to really show that you can beat small ball teams without having to resort to trying to go small yourself.

Cav's with 1 of the greatest players of all time.......and Love i guess. Small Ball-ish line up yet still pretty traditional (Besides Lebron pretty much controlling the ball and every aspect of the game. During the season it was TT @ C, Love @ PF and Lebron @ SF, but switched up to surround Lebron with shooters. Works fine but helps that Love has the size of a C, standing 6"10 and a husky 250lbs. (Hill@PG, Smith@SG, Korver@SF, Lebron@PF, Love@C). Cavs whole premise is Lebron always has the ball and if he cant do anything, gives it up to one of the 4 shooters that surround him.

Celtics with no top players (Playing that is; Irving is close). Closest right now is Horford. Otherwise they have been able to make due while utilizing a traditional line up (Rozier@PG, Brown@SG, Tatum@SF, Horford@PF, Baynes@C). No superstars like all the other teams, just great team basketball. A real "Organic" kinda team. No small ball, no hybrid system, just good old traditional basketball that works great despite not having any real star players involved. I think that this is going to be the way that we try to go. We are not a star destination and wont be until we can grow our own players into them.

Celtics only play Baynes an avg of about half the game. They don't have another traditional C in when he is out so they play small ball a lot. Same with the Cavs with TT only playing less than 30 minutes usually and the rest of the time it's Love at C.

That doesn't mean a team playing a traditional big a lot of minutes can't be successful. It all comes down to talent. But the thing is, Ayton, while looking like a traditional big, can possibly play in small ball type units since he has shooting range and is more of a face to the basket big. It could be huge if he could switch well and recover and rim protect and have great help defense. I won't expect everything, but if he can develop defensively in several areas he can be a super elite prospect. But even if he just continues to be elite offensively and be an elite rebounder, that's still a very good player.

[SuperSunsFan]

I don't understand why posters feel the **** all over their non-preferred prospect. In most drafts, IMO, all of Ayton/Doncic/Bagley/Jackson/Bamba/Young would be in consideration for the #1 pick. This draft is just that good.

Personally, I'm convinced we'll select Ayton. I think if Doncic slips to 4, and the Grizzlies aren't in love, we will have a very strong offer prepared for them. The big concern there - as we've discussed - would be having to hand out two max contracts in the same summer to Ayton and Doncic. But if it works, that's rings, fellas.

because no matte how good a draft is a darko milicic will always be lurking in the dark waiting to prey on a unfortunate team and no team wants to be the Pistons. I am passionate about it because I feel like Doncic is the Darko this year. Many Doncic fanatics want to convince you Ayton is Sam Bowie but Ayton is more likely to be Olajuwon. I accept that there is a chance Ayton will be a bust, there is a chance for every talent prospect to become a bust for many unforeseeable reasons including injuries, what I don't like is how Doncic fanatics think Doncic is this can't miss impossible to bust super talent next lebron who likes to nitpick every problem Ayton has but downplay Doncic's world of shortcomings that give him as much chance to bust as everyone else. They try to convince us How perfect Doncic is with some highlight reels with him schooling some third rate European players, if we judge a player by his highlight reels only Cedi Osman would be just as great as Doncic is since there are tons of video of him playing like Simmons as well.

If you look in the mirror, you are becoming the most irrational nitpicker, comparing Doncic to Milicic and Cardinal. I don't think anyone or at least many people here expect Ayton to bust. I've seen more people mention it about Doncic.

Many people slightly prefer one over the other or have it a near toss up and some others prefer one to a larger degree but still really like the other. There are only a handful of people really downplaying the other, yourself included. There are some slight concerns about either prospect, but many variables and facts about both prospects make them each elite prospects, whether it be the elite intangibles and court vision, winning mentality, youngest MVP winner ever for Doncic or the near unprecedented size+athleticism+shooting touch and scoring moves combined with elite rebounding from Ayton.

Let me state my position, I believe both are good prospects with equally same chances for becoming a bust. My act of nitpicking Doncic's game was a demonstration to Doncic's fanatics that average fans can just as easily pick apart all of Doncic's weaknesses and make a case that he should not draft him as they do with Ayton. If they are equal in star potential and talent, than the following tiebreakers become valid as to why I believe we should draft Ayton:

1. fans in Phoenix want Ayton because of his tie with the State, when both player are equal in talent and potential we should draft the guy who plays the position we need instead of a guy who plays the same position as our two best players. I don't buy that three initiators bs, abundance is not always a good thing as demonstrated by our three point guard fiasco. Houston only has two and they are are very good. Brandon Knight is coming back and he can play the Eric Gordon role (gunner, spot up spacer, occasional playmaker) nicely.

2. An athletic big with modern game skills are much harder to find in the future. I feel that Doncic's height is not really an advantage at the guard position where speed is more important if we will never use him as a post up pg like Andre Miller, we can easily get better results finding a true point with the same skill set easily down the road. In fact, on paper, Elfrid Payton has the exact same skill set (great playmaking, great vision, good getting to the basket, bad defense and average shooting though improving each year, bad attitude) I am willing to give a second chance under a more stable coaching situation and a full training camp. Conventional wisdom says don't pick a guard in a big men heavy draft because the guard could be overhyped due to the lack compatible alternatives, it is especially true when the next best available talent at similar position is Trae Young.

3. lack of quickness is a major concern for a guard/wing, as demonstrated by the failure of Casey Jacobsen, Kendall Marshall and Ennis, I don't think we should go that route again wishing a guard lacking quickness can be overcome by great IQ and skill, especially with the first overall pick. On the other hand, the track record of us drafting a super athletic big men despite their defense deficiency has been great, even with Marquese I believe the problem is more to do with his attitude not his basketball abilities, he demonstrated all the skills and bbIQ needed to be a great player. on the other hand Bender like many other skilled big men like Zarko and Lampe (edit: we got him from the Marbury trade) we have drafted in the past simply didn't pass the eye test that he could be anything more than the 9th guy on the bench.

[Kerrsed]

As for what i see in the Conference Finals:

Houston with 2 top 10 players CP3 & Harden (With one always in the running for MVP). Besides running a 2 PG system, traditional line up. (CP3@PG, Harden@SG, Ariza@SF, Tucker@PF, Capella@C) Sure Tucker is very short for a PF, but he has long arms that make up for it. Also helps that Ariza is 6"9 (Which is about average for a PF), making it easy to switch on D. The real strange thing is that Dantoni has gone from a more spread the ball team orientated system, to one that is very very ISO relient, but that comes with having 2 great ISO scorers on your team. Its all about maximizing the talent you have and creating a system to fit that talent and make them successful. Thats supposedly something that Kokosov is very very good at.

Warriors with 2 top 10 players in Curry & Durant. The quintessential Small Ball team. Wasnt always like this when they had Bogut at C and still won a title, and even today it still isnt that small. (Curry@PG, Klay@SG, Durant@SF, Green@PF, Pachulia@C) once again, sure Green is a SF playing PF, but he has the body for it. Helps that Durant is tall for a SF with a HUGE wingspan. Now against the Rockets they have gone smaller (Pachulia has nothing on Capella) and inserted Iggy in to the starting 5, but for most the season it was either Zaza or McGee starting at the 5 spot. I think when it comes to GS, you have to find another way to beat them, as if you dont have as good of players as them, then dont expect to beat them at their own game. Remember when the Suns were the 7 seconds or less small ball team? We had GREAT players to do it. Our opponents would TRY to go small to match us, but it never worked, as their players wernt as good and they were not beating us at our own game. Who did all the time? The Spurs with their very very traditional line-up. They were the 1st to really show that you can beat small ball teams without having to resort to trying to go small yourself.

Cav's with 1 of the greatest players of all time.......and Love i guess. Small Ball-ish line up yet still pretty traditional (Besides Lebron pretty much controlling the ball and every aspect of the game. During the season it was TT @ C, Love @ PF and Lebron @ SF, but switched up to surround Lebron with shooters. Works fine but helps that Love has the size of a C, standing 6"10 and a husky 250lbs. (Hill@PG, Smith@SG, Korver@SF, Lebron@PF, Love@C). Cavs whole premise is Lebron always has the ball and if he cant do anything, gives it up to one of the 4 shooters that surround him.

Celtics with no top players (Playing that is; Irving is close). Closest right now is Horford. Otherwise they have been able to make due while utilizing a traditional line up (Rozier@PG, Brown@SG, Tatum@SF, Horford@PF, Baynes@C). No superstars like all the other teams, just great team basketball. A real "Organic" kinda team. No small ball, no hybrid system, just good old traditional basketball that works great despite not having any real star players involved. I think that this is going to be the way that we try to go. We are not a star destination and wont be until we can grow our own players into them.

Celtics only play Baynes an avg of about half the game. They don't have another traditional C in when he is out so they play small ball a lot. Same with the Cavs with TT only playing less than 30 minutes usually and the rest of the time it's Love at C.

That doesn't mean a team playing a traditional big a lot of minutes can't be successful. It all comes down to talent. But the thing is, Ayton, while looking like a traditional big, can possibly play in small ball type units since he has shooting range and is more of a face to the basket big. It could be huge if he could switch well and recover and rim protect and have great help defense. I won't expect everything, but if he can develop defensively in several areas he can be a super elite prospect. But even if he just continues to be elite offensively and be an elite rebounder, that's still a very good player.

I dont consider Horford playing C and Morris playing PF small ball. Horford came into this league as a C and spent almost his whole career playing C (With Josh Smith as PF). He said he wanted to play PF and that was ok for a season or two, until they brought Misap into the fold and Horford went back to C. And Morris is Morris. The only reason he ever got any minutes as a SF was do to playing on two teams with his brother (Here and in Kansas). Even then we also ran Kieff at C and Marcus at PF plenty of times.

Rozier/Brown/Tatum/Morris/Horford isnt really small ball at all.

One thing about the Celtics that going to be interesting is what they are going to do NEXT season. I mean we all know that one of Rozier/Smart will be gone with Irving coming back to take over the starting PG duties, but what will they do at SF? With Tatum being an absolute stud all season, either he is going to somewhat rot on the bench in favor of Hayward, or do they just go with the "Best Players on the Court" route? That would be keeping Horford at C and figuring out what guy out of Brown/Tatum/Hayward is going to start at what position out of SG/SF/PF. Im guessing keeping it the same but with Hayward at PF since he has the weight over Tatum (Who is the same 6"8 height).

[JMac1]

[thamadkant]

Er...don't think so but it doesn't matter.

Discussion is mostly about his fit in today's nba.

If he's got talent and can score on anyone...

He will fit in today's NBA.

You have to make the other team adjust too.
If a big man is scoring easily at 60 percent or higher inside because of small ball in high volume... That's more efficient than jacking up 3s or putting a non scoring big who can't create for himself.


Put Davis or Embiid or Towns or Cousins with Durant, Curry or Harden and Paul and Watch how much more dominant their teams become.

[Kerrsed]

Watch on YouTube

[Bob8]

because no matte how good a draft is a darko milicic will always be lurking in the dark waiting to prey on a unfortunate team and no team wants to be the Pistons. I am passionate about it because I feel like Doncic is the Darko this year. Many Doncic fanatics want to convince you Ayton is Sam Bowie but Ayton is more likely to be Olajuwon. I accept that there is a chance Ayton will be a bust, there is a chance for every talent prospect to become a bust for many unforeseeable reasons including injuries, what I don't like is how Doncic fanatics think Doncic is this can't miss impossible to bust super talent next lebron who likes to nitpick every problem Ayton has but downplay Doncic's world of shortcomings that give him as much chance to bust as everyone else. They try to convince us How perfect Doncic is with some highlight reels with him schooling some third rate European players, if we judge a player by his highlight reels only Cedi Osman would be just as great as Doncic is since there are tons of video of him playing like Simmons as well.

If you look in the mirror, you are becoming the most irrational nitpicker, comparing Doncic to Milicic and Cardinal. I don't think anyone or at least many people here expect Ayton to bust. I've seen more people mention it about Doncic.

Many people slightly prefer one over the other or have it a near toss up and some others prefer one to a larger degree but still really like the other. There are only a handful of people really downplaying the other, yourself included. There are some slight concerns about either prospect, but many variables and facts about both prospects make them each elite prospects, whether it be the elite intangibles and court vision, winning mentality, youngest MVP winner ever for Doncic or the near unprecedented size+athleticism+shooting touch and scoring moves combined with elite rebounding from Ayton.

Let me state my position, I believe both are good prospects with equally same chances for becoming a bust. My act of nitpicking Doncic's game was a demonstration to Doncic's fanatics that average fans can just as easily pick apart all of Doncic's weaknesses and make a case that he should not draft him as they do with Ayton. If they are equal in star potential and talent, than the following tiebreakers become valid as to why I believe we should draft Ayton:

1. fans in Phoenix want Ayton because of his tie with the State, when both player are equal in talent and potential we should draft the guy who plays the position we need instead of a guy who plays the same position as our two best players. I don't buy that three initiators bs, abundance is not always a good thing as demonstrated by our three point guard fiasco. Houston only has two and they are are very good. Brandon Knight is coming back and he can play the Eric Gordon role (gunner, spot up spacer, occasional playmaker) nicely.

2. An athletic big with modern game skills are much harder to find in the future. I feel that Doncic's height is not really an advantage at the guard position where speed is more important if we will never use him as a post up pg like Andre Miller, we can easily get better results finding a true point with the same skill set easily down the road. In fact, on paper, Elfrid Payton has the exact same skill set (great playmaking, great vision, good getting to the basket, bad defense and average shooting though improving each year, bad attitude) I am willing to give a second chance under a more stable coaching situation and a full training camp. Conventional wisdom says don't pick a guard in a big men heavy draft because the guard could be overhyped due to the lack compatible alternatives, it is especially true when the next best available talent at similar position is Trae Young.

3. lack of quickness is a major concern for a guard/wing, as demonstrated by the failure of Casey Jacobsen, Kendall Marshall and Ennis, I don't think we should go that route again wishing a guard lacking quickness can be overcome by great IQ and skill, especially with the first overall pick. On the other hand, the track record of us drafting a super athletic big men despite their defense deficiency has been great, even with Marquese I believe the problem is more to do with his attitude not his basketball abilities, he demonstrated all the skills and bbIQ needed to be a great player. on the other hand Bender like many other skilled big men like Zarko and Lampe (edit: we got him from the Marbury trade) we have drafted in the past simply didn't pass the eye test that he could be anything more than the 9th guy on the bench.

Funny thing is that Doncic’s “fanatics” haven’t really bad words for Ayton. I haven’t said anything bad except that he’s totally lost in pick&roll D., what’s true. On the other hand we heard really “interesting” comparisons for Doncic.

[SuperSunsFan]

If you look in the mirror, you are becoming the most irrational nitpicker, comparing Doncic to Milicic and Cardinal. I don't think anyone or at least many people here expect Ayton to bust. I've seen more people mention it about Doncic.

Many people slightly prefer one over the other or have it a near toss up and some others prefer one to a larger degree but still really like the other. There are only a handful of people really downplaying the other, yourself included. There are some slight concerns about either prospect, but many variables and facts about both prospects make them each elite prospects, whether it be the elite intangibles and court vision, winning mentality, youngest MVP winner ever for Doncic or the near unprecedented size+athleticism+shooting touch and scoring moves combined with elite rebounding from Ayton.

Let me state my position, I believe both are good prospects with equally same chances for becoming a bust. My act of nitpicking Doncic's game was a demonstration to Doncic's fanatics that average fans can just as easily pick apart all of Doncic's weaknesses and make a case that he should not draft him as they do with Ayton. If they are equal in star potential and talent, than the following tiebreakers become valid as to why I believe we should draft Ayton:

1. fans in Phoenix want Ayton because of his tie with the State, when both player are equal in talent and potential we should draft the guy who plays the position we need instead of a guy who plays the same position as our two best players. I don't buy that three initiators bs, abundance is not always a good thing as demonstrated by our three point guard fiasco. Houston only has two and they are are very good. Brandon Knight is coming back and he can play the Eric Gordon role (gunner, spot up spacer, occasional playmaker) nicely.

2. An athletic big with modern game skills are much harder to find in the future. I feel that Doncic's height is not really an advantage at the guard position where speed is more important if we will never use him as a post up pg like Andre Miller, we can easily get better results finding a true point with the same skill set easily down the road. In fact, on paper, Elfrid Payton has the exact same skill set (great playmaking, great vision, good getting to the basket, bad defense and average shooting though improving each year, bad attitude) I am willing to give a second chance under a more stable coaching situation and a full training camp. Conventional wisdom says don't pick a guard in a big men heavy draft because the guard could be overhyped due to the lack compatible alternatives, it is especially true when the next best available talent at similar position is Trae Young.

3. lack of quickness is a major concern for a guard/wing, as demonstrated by the failure of Casey Jacobsen, Kendall Marshall and Ennis, I don't think we should go that route again wishing a guard lacking quickness can be overcome by great IQ and skill, especially with the first overall pick. On the other hand, the track record of us drafting a super athletic big men despite their defense deficiency has been great, even with Marquese I believe the problem is more to do with his attitude not his basketball abilities, he demonstrated all the skills and bbIQ needed to be a great player. on the other hand Bender like many other skilled big men like Zarko and Lampe (edit: we got him from the Marbury trade) we have drafted in the past simply didn't pass the eye test that he could be anything more than the 9th guy on the bench.

Funny thing is that Doncic’s “fanatics” haven’t really bad words for Ayton. I haven’t said anything bad except that he’s totally lost in pick&roll D., what’s true. On the other hand we heard really “interesting” comparisons for Doncic.

so you have never seen anyone comparing Ayton to Anthony Bennett, Kawme Brown, Greg Oden, thabeet? Go on Reddit or Twitter you can find a ton.

Jiri Welsch, Sasha Vujačić, Mario Hezonja, Rudy Fernandez, Sasha Pavlovic, Korolev, Sergei Monia were all hyped up euro guards/wings with compatible size and skills of Doncic who failed miserably. Even as hyped as Bogdan was he merely averaged 12 point as a 25 yo rookie. regarding euro 2guards/wings Hedo and Peja were pretty much the ceiling. Taking a chance with a late first round pick is fine, but with a 1st overall pick? you must be kidding, especially right after we drafted an euro overhyped bust with the 4th overall just two years ago.