Almost off-season discussion! Trades/Free Agency Ep. 9

[Dr Manute]

My attraction to Smart is due to the fact that he fits a need (versatile guard defense) better than almost anyone in the league - and almost may be a reach. Dude's a bulldog. And his effort and energy could be transformative for us. In addition, there aren't a whole lot of players who would seem to be a good fit next to either Booker or Knight in the backcourt. Kemba and Knight? Not great. Conley and Knight would work. Wall and Knight would work. Knight and Lowry? Ugh...

However, I was sincerely impressed by Shaq Harrison last year. I expect him to earn steady minutes in 18-19. How much of an upgrade would Smart be over Harrison? A weird af thing to say where the salary difference would be in excess of $10 million per!

But if Conley isn't available, the list of players who could fit is pretty short. I'm wary of Tyreke and very wary of Rondo, but if you're looking for potential starters, that's basically the end of the list as far as free agents are concerned. So do you take your chances on a friendly deal for Payton (including a team option, obviously)? Are we willing to wait for our selection at #16 to blossom into a starter?

You could say that the flaw in my reasoning is the fact that I'm considering Brandon Knight at all, but I think that's pretty clearly where we are. Bordow indicates that the FO is very optimistic that he'll be a much improved player next year, and I don't think it's feasible to move him this summer (at least not for the value the FO appears to think he will merit).

So it's a real puzzle. A lot of this could be resolved by simply selecting Doncic, which would reduce to near-nothing the need to add a true PG. Given that I have simply not been able to put together a coherent answer to the "ideal offseason" rosterbation thread under the assumption that we take Ayton, perhaps that's an indicator that the smart pick (Doncic) really is the right one. I'd still want a young center, but I think there's a solid chance we could move up to grab one of Bamba, Carter or Williams - certainly easier than trying to move up for Doncic.

... Gonna go switch my vote re Doncic/Ayton. We'll see how long that lasts. If the past is any indicator, it'll be about 5 minutes.

Kokoskov designed motion offense with:

1. Knight
2. Booker
3. Jackson
4. Doncic (Primary Facilitator)
5. Bender

Lots of ball movement / picks / and open lanes.

Guys. You have to stop. There is no way on God's green earth that the Suns are not picking Ayton. The only exceptions would be-he dies, he is in jail, or a limb is amputated.

100% chance Ayton will be selected - we can't even discuss options? Wow!!! He must be unworldly good - no flaws in his game!!! Look, I think Ayton will be the choice, but I'm not in McD's head and I don't know his future vision for the Suns.

[NapoleonII]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

[Dr Manute]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

It may be too late - Suns are under a lot of pressure to WIN this next year. Sarver wants a new arena. McD contract expires in two years - he needs to show the rebuild is working. Fans are losing patience.

Is Ayton the best choice to win now?? - Will plugging Ayton in at center produce that much more wins??? What we need is a primary facilitator - we need a player/ players that know how to WIN. Now, if we can get that and Ayton - then great!! We won't need Doncic in 4 years.

[Mjee]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

It may be too late - Suns are under a lot of pressure to WIN this next year. Sarver wants a new arena. McD contract expires in two years - he needs to show the rebuild is working. Fans are losing patience.

Is Ayton the best choice to win now?? - Will plugging Ayton in at center produce that much more wins??? What we need is a primary facilitator - we need a player/ players that know how to WIN. Now, if we can get that and Ayton - then great!! We won't need Doncic in 4 years.

The proposed line-up of (1)Knight, (2) Booker, (3) JJ, (4) Doncic, (5) Bender is complete trash.... We would have another **** record and booker will request to be moved.

[Dr Manute]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

It may be too late - Suns are under a lot of pressure to WIN this next year. Sarver wants a new arena. McD contract expires in two years - he needs to show the rebuild is working. Fans are losing patience.

Is Ayton the best choice to win now?? - Will plugging Ayton in at center produce that much more wins??? What we need is a primary facilitator - we need a player/ players that know how to WIN. Now, if we can get that and Ayton - then great!! We won't need Doncic in 4 years.

The proposed line-up of (1)Knight, (2) Booker, (3) JJ, (4) Doncic, (5) Bender is complete trash.... We would have another **** record and booker will request to be moved.

Ok,

1) Knight
2) Booker
3) JJ
4) Bender
5) Ayton

now that's much better.

[Dr Manute]

they both suck!!!

[Dr Manute]

We're the worst team in the league - my point is: if we can have a fun young team that shows promise and potential - and can possibly win enough games to compete for a bottom playoff spot next year. A team that shows McD has a vision and we are moving in the right direction. That should be enough to ignite some excitement here in Phoenix.

[bwgood77]

It will really be a disappointment if Knight is our starting PG this year.

[NapoleonII]

You need veterans to win in this league.

-GSW surrounded their core in 2014 with Iguaduala, David Lee, Bogut, Steve Blake, Speights and Jermaine O'Neal.
-Philly last year had JJ Reddick, TJ Mconnell and Covington.
-Boston's youth is constantly touted, but even they had Horford and Marcus Morris (still a vet at this point).

Very servicable players who can play 25-30 mins a night and play smart defense.

Our Vets should have retired 3 years ago.

[lilfishi22]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

It may be too late - Suns are under a lot of pressure to WIN this next year. Sarver wants a new arena. McD contract expires in two years - he needs to show the rebuild is working. Fans are losing patience.

Is Ayton the best choice to win now?? - Will plugging Ayton in at center produce that much more wins??? What we need is a primary facilitator - we need a player/ players that know how to WIN. Now, if we can get that and Ayton - then great!! We won't need Doncic in 4 years.

Ayton will be more dangerous right away I think more so than Doncic, because he'll be able to come in on Day 1 and put up stats. Maybe not 20/10 but I don't think 20/10 is out of the question. Even if he doesn't jive on the court right away with others, he'll still be able to get his and I think he'll be the more dominant player of the two, at least in their rookie year. Just having another legit scoring option would add wins to the board. This is why I think McD will take him. He'll likely have almost immediate payoff which is good for McD's tenure, he'll probably add a handful of wins just on his own and he'll be VERY easy to sell to the impatient fans. I mean, who doesn't like a giant, muscular Greek God who dunks?

The problem is when it comes down to it, when it comes down to winning at the highest level, I still think Doncic is the guy. I've never seen the guy whittle when the pressure is on and his high level playmaking, elite BBIQ and translatable shooting will go very far in the league. Doncic is not going to come in and immediately put up dominant stats at his position, I think he'll be put up solid stats and have an impact on the game but Ayton's pure athleticism alone would allow him to become one of the top 10 bigs almost right away (if I'm projecting it right). But I would prefer to get the right piece who's payoff will be slightly later down the road (could be sooner if he adapts right away) but could take us further than the piece who's going to blow us away now but may end up coming short.

[lilfishi22]

It will really be a disappointment if Knight is our starting PG this year.

I might be in the minority who thinks Knight could come back and be a much better player than he was with us but I still don't think starting him is a good idea. He's just not a good PG, he's a short scoring 2 who can't play D. If he actually had good PG instincts, I'd be a little more comfortable with his inefficient scoring and poor shooting. I think he has a lot of value if he's rehabbed properly and supposedly had a complete change in attitude and perspective on basketball, but off the bench.

[Dr Manute]

It will really be a disappointment if Knight is our starting PG this year.

It would definitely be if he was expected to be our primary facilitator. He has shown that he works best as a limited facilitator / scorer.

We would still need a primary facilitator - this has been our problem with Knight - if we have Knight as PG then our team offense sucks. If we have Knight alongside a PG (primary facilitator) our backcourt is typically too small. If we have Knight alongside Bledsoe (another limited facilitator) you have madness

[lilfishi22]

You need veterans to win in this league.

-GSW surrounded their core in 2014 with Iguaduala, David Lee, Bogut, Steve Blake, Speights and Jermaine O'Neal.
-Philly last year had JJ Reddick, TJ Mconnell and Covington.
-Boston's youth is constantly touted, but even they had Horford and Marcus Morris (still a vet at this point).

Very servicable players who can play 25-30 mins a night and play smart defense.

Our Vets should have retired 3 years ago.

Totally agree. Some argue Dudley and Chandler could still play when we signed them as serviceable vets but I never really quite believe it and Dudley in particular seemed to have just dialed it in and appear to just be getting ready to take on a coaching role. Chandler still gets boards but he exemplifies the whole 'going away from traditional C' narrative, especially if these C's just can't defend anymore. Guys like Capela, DeAndre Jordan and Gobert would have little value if they weren't elite defenders.

[Dr Manute]

When is Doncic feasibly a free agent? 2025? 2026?

Best case, dream scenario that isn't a conspiracy:

-Kokoskov is the real deal and becomes our system, ala Poppovich (not saying he's as good as HOF Pop) or more realistically Spoelstra or Rick Carlisle in Dallas.

-We draft our HOF player in Ayton and build around Ayton/Booker/Jackson

-We're deep in the playoffs in 5-6 years, with Booker still younger than Harden is now, Ayton is hitting the beginning of his prime at 25 years old.

The year before Doncic is a free agent, he lets Sacramento know his intentions to sign with us, they trade him for 20 cents on the dollar. We finally get Ayton/Doncic/Booker/Jackson. OR wait it out and finally recruit Doncic as a free agent.

Am I just bsing myself?

It may be too late - Suns are under a lot of pressure to WIN this next year. Sarver wants a new arena. McD contract expires in two years - he needs to show the rebuild is working. Fans are losing patience.

Is Ayton the best choice to win now?? - Will plugging Ayton in at center produce that much more wins??? What we need is a primary facilitator - we need a player/ players that know how to WIN. Now, if we can get that and Ayton - then great!! We won't need Doncic in 4 years.

Ayton will be more dangerous right away I think more so than Doncic, because he'll be able to come in on Day 1 and put up stats. Maybe not 20/10 but I don't think 20/10 is out of the question. Even if he doesn't jive on the court right away with others, he'll still be able to get his and I think he'll be the more dominant player of the two, at least in their rookie year. Just having another legit scoring option would add wins to the board. This is why I think McD will take him. He'll likely have almost immediate payoff which is good for McD's tenure, he'll probably add a handful of wins just on his own and he'll be VERY easy to sell to the impatient fans. I mean, who doesn't like a giant, muscular Greek God who dunks?

The problem is when it comes down to it, when it comes down to winning at the highest level, I still think Doncic is the guy. I've never seen the guy whittle when the pressure is on and his high level playmaking, elite BBIQ and translatable shooting will go very far in the league. Doncic is not going to come in and immediately put up dominant stats at his position, I think he'll be put up solid stats and have an impact on the game but Ayton's pure athleticism alone would allow him to become one of the top 10 bigs almost right away (if I'm projecting it right). But I would prefer to get the right piece who's payoff will be slightly later down the road (could be sooner if he adapts right away) but could take us further than the piece who's going to blow us away now but may end up coming short.

I don't think the Suns will be as good right away with Ayton. Remember, opposing coaches attributed their win to how they designed their offense to attack Ayton - his defense was that bad. It's going to take sometime for him to learn (if he even does).

https://www.theringer.com/march-madness/2018/3/16/17129698/deandre-ayton-buffalo-defense-ncaa-tournament

[BobbieL]

You need veterans to win in this league.

-GSW surrounded their core in 2014 with Iguaduala, David Lee, Bogut, Steve Blake, Speights and Jermaine O'Neal.
-Philly last year had JJ Reddick, TJ Mconnell and Covington.
-Boston's youth is constantly touted, but even they had Horford and Marcus Morris (still a vet at this point).

Very servicable players who can play 25-30 mins a night and play smart defense.

Our Vets should have retired 3 years ago.

Exactly! Granted it took the Warriors a few years: Lee in 2010; the Bogut trade in 2012; the Iggy sign/ trade in 2013. So the Suns probably won’t do it all this offseason but as I have hoped - there is some contract cap being used that needs to be used better.

[dremill24]

You need veterans to win in this league.

-GSW surrounded their core in 2014 with Iguaduala, David Lee, Bogut, Steve Blake, Speights and Jermaine O'Neal.
-Philly last year had JJ Reddick, TJ Mconnell and Covington.
-Boston's youth is constantly touted, but even they had Horford and Marcus Morris (still a vet at this point).

Very servicable players who can play 25-30 mins a night and play smart defense.

Our Vets should have retired 3 years ago.

Exactly! Granted it took the Warriors a few years: Lee in 2010; the Bogut trade in 2012; the Iggy sign/ trade in 2013. So the Suns probably won’t do it all this offseason but as I have hoped - there is some contract cap being used that needs to be used better.

Dont you know that if you don’t do it all in one summer and go from worst to first that it’s stupid and you’re just treadmilling?!

[Wilber85]

It will really be a disappointment if Knight is our starting PG this year.

I think Knight can be better than Terry Rozier, and look what he did for the Celtics in the Playoffs.

NBA is all about Depth, and coaching (As well as three point shooting now)

I wouldn't mind Brandon Knight if he passes, and takes good shots

[bwgood77]

It will really be a disappointment if Knight is our starting PG this year.

I might be in the minority who thinks Knight could come back and be a much better player than he was with us but I still don't think starting him is a good idea. He's just not a good PG, he's a short scoring 2 who can't play D. If he actually had good PG instincts, I'd be a little more comfortable with his inefficient scoring and poor shooting. I think he has a lot of value if he's rehabbed properly and supposedly had a complete change in attitude and perspective on basketball, but off the bench.

When you're a scoring pg who is turnover prone and gets nervous in big game moments and don't play D, that's not good. Especially when your scoring is far below league avg efficiency. It's likely that the more points he scores, the more we get behind because he's taking a crazy # of shots to get those points. League avg TS% is around 55%. His was 50% last year. His best with Milwaukee was that league average mark.

If he could completely transform his psyche and way he plays the game and look more to get teammates involved and not dribble that would be great. It is VERY hard to change a player's habits so if he does change, it will be a huge success for Igor, but it's a tall task to ask for.

[darealjuice]

I hate the idea of Brandon Knight being our starting point guard as much as anyone, but it's pretty funny to me that people still stick their nose up at him after enduring a season of Elfrid Payton, Tyler Ulis, Isaiah Canaan, and Mike James. People might want to start preparing for that scenario unless you're expecting us to draft Doncic and make him our primary ball handler, hand the keys to an unproven back-up like FVV, or pull off an unlikely trade for someone like Kemba, Schroder, Rozier, etc.

This ship isn't going to turn around overnight. We were the worst team by nearly every metric last season, Doncic and Ayton will have their issues given big roles from the jump like most rookies, and this free agent class is pretty mediocre outside of the guys that obviously won't be in Phoenix. Unless McDonough hits a home run this offseason we're likely not getting over 35 wins if completely healthy, and even that feels optimistic.

[bwgood77]

I hate the idea of Brandon Knight being our starting point guard as much as anyone, but it's pretty funny to me that people still stick their nose up at him after enduring a season of Elfrid Payton, Tyler Ulis, Isaiah Canaan, and Mike James. People might want to start preparing for that scenario unless you're expecting us to draft Doncic and make him our primary ball handler, hand the keys to an unproven back-up like FVV, or pull off an unlikely trade for someone like Kemba, Schroder, Rozier, etc.

This ship isn't going to turn around overnight. We were the worst team by nearly every metric last season, Doncic and Ayton will have their issues given big roles from the jump like most rookies, and this free agent class is pretty mediocre outside of the guys that obviously won't be in Phoenix. Unless McDonough hits a home run this offseason we're likely not getting over 35 wins if completely healthy, and even that feels optimistic.

I'm not expecting us to be good, but I have zero entertainment watching Brandon Knight play basketball. Obviously I didn't like this year's group of point guards much either, so that's my concern. It doesn't seem as easy to come across a pretty good point guard as you'd think it would be given that most teams have a good one and many teams have a couple of pretty good ones.

I haven't really come up with a good solution in regards to this outside of possibly in the draft, because I don't want Payton or Schroder either. I'm not terribly high on Rozier but he'd probably be better than those other options. He's very hard to judge because his shooting numbers were pretty bad before the playoffs...under a 40% shooter overall. Though he is 38% from 3 and about half his attempts were from there. Doesn't feel like a guy it's worth giving up a near lottery pick for or especially more than one, especially if you may have to pay him a bunch of money. I don't think he will be on the block though...I expect they let Smart walk instead and hang onto Rozier, at least for now.