Team Canada Basketball Thread

[CrookedJ]

There is a lot of statistical evidence that shows that Andrew Wiggins is actually not a good player. His Real Plus/Minus is -1.60 this year and was -1.61 last year. The puts him in the Luke Babbitt/E'Twaun Moore range of players. He is a poor defender, a poor playmaker and doesn't have a high BBIQ.

As I've said, he would probably contribute to Team Canada in FIBA competition, but we should not be losing sleep over him. He simply is not that good.

NBA math's TPA stat had him as the worst player for Minny this season.

I never know what to think about their stat, but thats certainly not a good thing.

[WellYouKnow]

Tristan is getting a little too much shade thrown at him for his play at Manilla in 2016 here.

We beat Turkey, New Zealand, Senegal in 3 straight games and then played France fairly well in the finals. Tristan was huge for us and several late clutch plays in that tourney. He shot 47% overall.

It was the wings being so terrible with Ennis being our SG and 2nd option that killed us. Ennis, Brady, and both the Scrubbs had horrific tournaments shooting wise.

Our lack of depth in the wings was ugly. Murray, Pangos and Brooks are a godsend to this team

[Alfred]

There is a lot of statistical evidence that shows that Andrew Wiggins is actually not a good player. His Real Plus/Minus is -1.60 this year and was -1.61 last year. The puts him in the Luke Babbitt/E'Twaun Moore range of players. He is a poor defender, a poor playmaker and doesn't have a high BBIQ.

As I've said, he would probably contribute to Team Canada in FIBA competition, but we should not be losing sleep over him. He simply is not that good.

NBA math's TPA stat had him as the worst player for Minny this season.

I never know what to think about their stat, but thats certainly not a good thing.

The thing about advanced stats is that they're GENERALLY right, in that they usually put the best players in the league at the top and the worst players in the league at the bottom. Almost every single advanced stat puts Andrew Wiggins either at the bottom of the league or deep into the "who gives a crap" region.

And it makes sense. What are his strengths as a basketball player? His biggest strength is as an ISO scorer, a strength that is marred by inefficient shooting percentages. In nearly every other aspect of the game he is below average.

[frumble]

I'm on Team Canada basketball overload!

Hair - Frumble - what's your take on these guys. Good turnout?

25 guys born in 00 were at the age assessment camps over Easter Weekend. 16 of those guys are on the FIBA list, along with our best 01 player, Addison Patterson.

Based on Hair Canada's earlier posts, I think Andrew Nembhard, AJ Lawson, Emmanuel Miller, Patterson, and Tyrese Samuel are probably the most-touted players on the list. Maybe Tre Edwards and Joel Brown would be next.

Hair Canada, would love to hear your thoughts on the list.

[Pooh_Jeter]

Given the depth of talent on the roster we can live without Wiggins, but as disappointing as his development has been he is still an important piece of Team Canada's future.

First off, although his overall defensive profile still isn't great, he has absolutely made strides there. As an engaged on ball defender he would be our best option on the wing defensively. Brooks and Scrubb work hard and do the right things but they are lacking in terms of physical tools.

Given the quality guard depth we now have it should be less of an issue, but a guy capable of soaking up possessions and not throwing up on his self is a skill as unsexy as it may be. He can draw fouls and drive and kick as well which would be a boon to this team. Triano and Team Canada in general have never done a great job at leveraging our athleticism, but Wiggins is immediately the most athletic dude on the court against virtually any opponent we play. Just having him run the floor would open up things for others. If he ran off ball cuts or attacked mismatches in the post he could also provide extra value.

Basically we can live without him for this qualifying period, but you're crazy if you don't want him in the fold in the future.

[Hair Canada]

I'm on Team Canada basketball overload!

Hair - Frumble - what's your take on these guys. Good turnout?

25 guys born in 00 were at the age assessment camps over Easter Weekend. 16 of those guys are on the FIBA list, along with our best 01 player, Addison Patterson.

Based on Hair Canada's earlier posts, I think Andrew Nembhard, AJ Lawson, Emmanuel Miller, Patterson, and Tyrese Samuel are probably the most-touted players on the list. Maybe Tre Edwards and Joel Brown would be next.

Hair Canada, would love to hear your thoughts on the list.

Unlike last year, that's an excellent turnout. Apart from Barrett, this list includes all the best eligible players I can think of. Only one missing is Keshaun Saunders, who's also eligible I believe, but that's not critical. My personal 12 out of these would be Nembhard, Brown, Lawson, Patterson, Edwards, Neath, Panzo, Miller, Samuel, Bailey, Bediako, and Hendriks. Perhaps Scott instead of one of the guards for some extra size. But the others are also legit and the coaches might decide to go with something a bit different based on how players look like during camp.

Once the list of 12 is finalized, I'll write a more thorough review on the roster and a bit about the chances (for that, we'll need to also see the American roster).

[Alfred]

Given the depth of talent on the roster we can live without Wiggins, but as disappointing as his development has been he is still an important piece of Team Canada's future.

First off, although his overall defensive profile still isn't great, he has absolutely made strides there. As an engaged on ball defender he would be our best option on the wing defensively. Brooks and Scrubb work hard and do the right things but they are lacking in terms of physical tools.

Suggesting bringing Wiggins on the team to help our defense is like suggesting bringing Bargnani aboard to help our rebounding. Without any context, you would look at either of them and think that they might help you out in that regard, but in practice, that isn't the case.

[TooBad]

I bet if Anthony Bennett was given 40 minutes+ a night and a green light he'd be putting up better number than Wiggins. Wiggins is just a skinny bennett.

[Gday_eh]

I'm letting my west coast bias show here, but might as well call the U 18 team, Team Ontario.......

I Can't believe there are not at least a couple of players west of the lakes that should be at the camp.

[Mattd97]

Given the depth of talent on the roster we can live without Wiggins, but as disappointing as his development has been he is still an important piece of Team Canada's future.

First off, although his overall defensive profile still isn't great, he has absolutely made strides there. As an engaged on ball defender he would be our best option on the wing defensively. Brooks and Scrubb work hard and do the right things but they are lacking in terms of physical tools.

Given the quality guard depth we now have it should be less of an issue, but a guy capable of soaking up possessions and not throwing up on his self is a skill as unsexy as it may be. He can draw fouls and drive and kick as well which would be a boon to this team. Triano and Team Canada in general have never done a great job at leveraging our athleticism, but Wiggins is immediately the most athletic dude on the court against virtually any opponent we play. Just having him run the floor would open up things for others. If he ran off ball cuts or attacked mismatches in the post he could also provide extra value.

Basically we can live without him for this qualifying period, but you're crazy if you don't want him in the fold in the future.

Not to mention our weakest position is the 3, and our weakest skill is scoring and he's a scoring 3. But his game is easy to hate much in the same way as demars is and people have loved hating on him since high school when ppl would fawn over Jabari and Randle. At Kansas he was too passive. In minny he's too selfish. The man has many and obvious faults, but his detractors will always refuse to admit any accomplishments. The fact is the few skills he does have are ones this team lack

[aminiaturebuddha]

I'm on Team Canada basketball overload!

Hair - Frumble - what's your take on these guys. Good turnout?

25 guys born in 00 were at the age assessment camps over Easter Weekend. 16 of those guys are on the FIBA list, along with our best 01 player, Addison Patterson.

Based on Hair Canada's earlier posts, I think Andrew Nembhard, AJ Lawson, Emmanuel Miller, Patterson, and Tyrese Samuel are probably the most-touted players on the list. Maybe Tre Edwards and Joel Brown would be next.

Hair Canada, would love to hear your thoughts on the list.

Unlike last year, that's an excellent turnout. Apart from Barrett, this list includes all the best eligible players I can think of. Only one missing is Keshaun Saunders, who's also eligible I believe, but that's not critical. My personal 12 out of these would be Nembhard, Brown, Lawson, Patterson, Edwards, Neath, Panzo, Miller, Samuel, Bailey, Bediako, and Hendriks. Perhaps Scott instead of one of the guards for some extra size. But the others are also legit and the coaches might decide to go with something a bit different based on how players look like during camp.

Once the list of 12 is finalized, I'll write a more thorough review on the roster and a bit about the chances (for that, we'll need to also see the American roster).

I agree that it's a pretty good turnout. It's missing some of the star power of the junior teams of the last few years, with no top 10 or 15 prospects, but I think we've known for a while that there's a slight dip in terms of top end talent at this particular age bracket. It should still be a very good team overall, and will maybe provide a different look than last year's U19 team that relied very heavily on Barrett and Wigginton. Whatever team they draw from this should be fairly well balanced.

I'm curious to see Bediako, since I haven't really seen much of him outside of a few clips since last summer. I hope he's been able to expand his game a bit over the course of the year.

Also happy to see Patterson playing after he was held out by his family for school-related reasons during last summer U17 games.

[frumble]

I'm letting my west coast bias show here, but might as well call the U 18 team, Team Ontario.......

I Can't believe there are not at least a couple of players west of the lakes that should be at the camp.

I normally don't get caught up in the regional stuff, but I was thinking the same thing. Not a single player from outside Ontario is a little surprising.

[Hair Canada]

I'm letting my west coast bias show here, but might as well call the U 18 team, Team Ontario.......

I Can't believe there are not at least a couple of players west of the lakes that should be at the camp.

I normally don't get caught up in the regional stuff, but I was thinking the same thing. Not a single player from outside Ontario is a little surprising.

Well, first, not exactly. Tyrese Samuel is from Montreal and will very likely be on the final roster. It is true though that this team is heavily dominated by Ontario prospects and that there's no one from Western Canada here. But to be honest, there's just no one I can think of who should have been invited instead if we're basing this on meritocracy. The only other player who I think could have reasonably be added to this camp and might even found a place on the final roster, is Damion Squire, also from QC.

Not trying to be a Canada Basketball apologist here. Would have also loved to see guys from more provinces and the sport of basketball gain popularity all over the country. But eventually, at this level, selections need to be based primarily on meritocracy. Only when two players are more or less at the same level, would I give preference to greater geographical representation. So it's nice to say that we need someone from Western Canada, but is there a particular name you have in mind that should have been added to this group? The reality right now is that in most age groups the gaps between Ontario and the ROC are just too big. I've seen guys from the West (Alberta; BC; Saskatchewan) play in both the OSBA and NPA, and have also followed this age group closely when they played in the National Provincial Championship last summer, where the best of each province were included on teams. Frankly, no one I've seen was at this level.

Perhaps the only other exception is Fofo Adetogun from Saskatchewan, who's a player I really like for his heart, effort, rebounding, athleticism, and length. But in all honesty, at his position (PG) the guys that ended up being invited to camp are just better long-term prospects and probably also produce better right now, as Fofo is not very quick and has a bit of a hard time creating and turning the corner against higher level defenders. Kellen Tynes from Nova Scotia is also a very nice PG, but he's undersized and a 2020 prospect, so not at this level yet. Anyone else you can think of? I might be missing someone of course.

In previous years, when there were good prospects from other provinces, such as Wigginton (Nova Scotia), Emmanuel Akot and Daniel Sackie (both from Manitoba), and before that Trey Lyles (Saskatchewan), they all found their way to the national junior teams. Looking at younger classes, there are a couple of prospects who I think we're likely to see on the young teams, such as Keshuan Barthelemew (co 2020 from QC), Georges Lefebvre (2021, QC), and Jayden Webley (2022, Alberta).

[frumble]

Well, first, not exactly. Tyrese Samuel is from Montreal and will very likely be on the final roster. It is true though that this team is heavily dominated by Ontario prospects and that there's no one from Western Canada here. But to be honest, there's just no one I can think of who should have been invited instead if we're basing this on meritocracy. The only other player who I think could have reasonably be added to this camp and might even found a place on the final roster, is Damion Squire, also from QC.

Not trying to be a Canada Basketball apologist here. Would have also loved to see guys from more provinces and the sport of basketball gain popularity all over the country. But eventually, at this level, selections need to be based primarily on meritocracy. Only when two players are more or less at the same level, would I give preference to greater geographical representation. So it's nice to say that we need someone from Western Canada, but is there a particular name you have in mind that should have been added to this group? The reality right now is that in most age groups the gaps between Ontario and the ROC are just too big. I've seen guys from the West (Alberta; BC; Saskatchewan) play in both the OSBA and NPA, and have also followed this age group closely when they played in the National Provincial Championship last summer, where the best of each province were included on teams. Frankly, no one I've seen was at this level.

Perhaps the only other exception is Fofo Adetogun from Saskatchewan, who's a player I really like for his heart, effort, rebounding, athleticism, and length. But in all honesty, at his position (PG) the guys that ended up being invited to camp are just better long-term prospects and probably also produce better right now, as Fofo is not very quick and has a bit of a hard time creating and turning the corner against higher level defenders. Kellen Tynes from Nova Scotia is also a very nice PG, but he's undersized and a 2020 prospect, so not at this level yet. Anyone else you can think of? I might be missing someone of course.

In previous years, when there were good prospects from other provinces, such as Wigginton (Nova Scotia), Emmanuel Akot and Daniel Sackie (both from Manitoba), and before that Trey Lyles (Saskatchewan), they all found their way to the national junior teams. Looking at younger classes, there are a couple of prospects who I think we're likely to see on the young teams, such as Keshuan Barthelemew (co 2020 from QC), Georges Lefebvre (2021, QC), and Jayden Webley (2022, Alberta).

I agree that players should be selected on merit rather than in furtherance of regional representation. I am just surprised that Ontario, with slightly less than 40% of Canada's population, accounts for 16 of the 17 invites.

NS won the U17 and U15 nationals a couple summers ago. Have all the U17s from that team aged out? (e.g., Chase Tynes and Ben Stevens). And no one from the U15 team was good enough for the invite list?

TheTynes brothers were MVPs of those tournaments and it may just be a case of Chase being a year too old and Kellen being a year too young - a candidate for U17 rather than U18 (as you note).

Re other provinces, I believe in an earlier thread you mentioned Lual Akot (MB) as one of the more promising players from the class of 19. Do you think he is better than any of the 17 on the invitation list?

[frumble]

This morning NBA.com posted a new roundup of mock drafts.

http://www.nba.com/news/2018-consensus-mock-draft

SGA still pegged to go around 12th to 14th in most mocks reviewed.

ESPN: 12th (5/15)
The Ringer: 14th (5/19)
NBAdraft.net: 12th (5/24)
Sports Illustrated: 14th (5/19)
USA Today: 12th (5/16)
NBC Sports: 12th (5/16)
CBS Sports: 13th (5/24)
Basketball Insiders: 10th (5/24)
Bleacher Report (5/15) and Net Scouts (5/15): not in top 16.

[Lukeem]

Well, first, not exactly. Tyrese Samuel is from Montreal and will very likely be on the final roster. It is true though that this team is heavily dominated by Ontario prospects and that there's no one from Western Canada here. But to be honest, there's just no one I can think of who should have been invited instead if we're basing this on meritocracy. The only other player who I think could have reasonably be added to this camp and might even found a place on the final roster, is Damion Squire, also from QC.

Not trying to be a Canada Basketball apologist here. Would have also loved to see guys from more provinces and the sport of basketball gain popularity all over the country. But eventually, at this level, selections need to be based primarily on meritocracy. Only when two players are more or less at the same level, would I give preference to greater geographical representation. So it's nice to say that we need someone from Western Canada, but is there a particular name you have in mind that should have been added to this group? The reality right now is that in most age groups the gaps between Ontario and the ROC are just too big. I've seen guys from the West (Alberta; BC; Saskatchewan) play in both the OSBA and NPA, and have also followed this age group closely when they played in the National Provincial Championship last summer, where the best of each province were included on teams. Frankly, no one I've seen was at this level.

Perhaps the only other exception is Fofo Adetogun from Saskatchewan, who's a player I really like for his heart, effort, rebounding, athleticism, and length. But in all honesty, at his position (PG) the guys that ended up being invited to camp are just better long-term prospects and probably also produce better right now, as Fofo is not very quick and has a bit of a hard time creating and turning the corner against higher level defenders. Kellen Tynes from Nova Scotia is also a very nice PG, but he's undersized and a 2020 prospect, so not at this level yet. Anyone else you can think of? I might be missing someone of course.

In previous years, when there were good prospects from other provinces, such as Wigginton (Nova Scotia), Emmanuel Akot and Daniel Sackie (both from Manitoba), and before that Trey Lyles (Saskatchewan), they all found their way to the national junior teams. Looking at younger classes, there are a couple of prospects who I think we're likely to see on the young teams, such as Keshuan Barthelemew (co 2020 from QC), Georges Lefebvre (2021, QC), and Jayden Webley (2022, Alberta).

I agree that players should be selected on merit rather than in furtherance of regional representation. I am just surprised that Ontario, with slightly less than 40% of Canada's population, accounts for 16 of the 17 invites.

NS won the U17 and U15 nationals a couple summers ago. Have all the U17s from that team aged out? (e.g., Chase Tynes and Ben Stevens). And no one from the U15 team was good enough for the invite list?

TheTynes brothers were MVPs of those tournaments and it may just be a case of Chase being a year too old and Kellen being a year too young - a candidate for U17 rather than U18 (as you note).

Re other provinces, I believe in an earlier thread you mentioned Lual Akot (MB) as one of the more promising players from the class of 19. Do you think he is better than any of the 17 on the invitation list?

1) population % is one thing population density is a huge advantage though

Players from Ontario (where I grew up playing ) are generally a stones throw away to great competition allowing more / better development opportunities

Even past just southern Ontario, I grew up playing tournaments in the states NY, Michigan being right there an easy trip away

Maritimes where I went to play uni you’re generally 2+ hours away from the next biggest city which is going to be considerably smaller than the relative Ontario city

Montreal (lived there shortly) is good but outside of Montreal you’re similar to maritimes for proximity and further away from major us cities


Prairies where I coach now is a nightmare (I have kids hat have to travel more than 5hrs for our club PRACTISES)

West coast I believe is really the second best spot for potential (close with Montreal - debatable) in terms of location and population. It is a shame grizzlies died off as it should be a better hotbed for development with proximity to California


2) national tournament that Nova Scotia won (I was coaching there) was an great run by great teams but very few of the highest population provinces, continually send their best players outside of Nova Scotia, provincial programs are often an inferior development system due to bureaucracy and negligence. I know BC, Alberta, Ontario often have more top players choose the club route instead

[frumble]

2) national tournament that Nova Scotia won (I was coaching there) was an great run by great teams but very few of the highest population provinces, continually send their best players outside of Nova Scotia, provincial programs are often an inferior development system due to bureaucracy and negligence. I know BC, Alberta, Ontario often have more top players choose the club route instead

Yeah, Ontario was missing some very good players. But their team that NS beat in the semi-finals of the 09 Canada Games incuded Anthony Bennett, Kevin Pangos, Negus Webster-Chan, Naz Long, and Aaron Best. The Que team that NS lost to (by 2) in the finals included Olivier Hanlan, Kemy Osse, and Kenny Chery.

The Ontario team that NS beat in the 2015 U17 finals incuded RJ Barrett, Andrew Nembhard, Shamiel Stevenson, Shawkon Barrett, Keshaun Saunders, and Grant Audu.

The Ontario team that NS beat in the 2016 U17 finals included Bediako, Miller, K. Bennett, and J. Brown.
And the Ontario team that NS beat in the 2016 U15 finals included Hemmings, Patterson, Sakota, and Moncrief.

And ON isn't the only team that has guys missing because of AAU commitments. NS's big upset win in 2015 was without Lindell Wigginton.

[Hair Canada]

2) national tournament that Nova Scotia won (I was coaching there) was an great run by great teams but very few of the highest population provinces, continually send their best players outside of Nova Scotia, provincial programs are often an inferior development system due to bureaucracy and negligence. I know BC, Alberta, Ontario often have more top players choose the club route instead

Yeah, Ontario was missing some very good players. But their team that NS beat in the semi-finals of the 09 Canada Games incuded Anthony Bennett, Kevin Pangos, Negus Webster-Chan, Naz Long, and Aaron Best. The Que team that NS lost to (by 2) in the finals included Olivier Hanlan, Kemy Osse, and Kenny Chery.

The Ontario team that NS beat in the 2015 U17 finals incuded RJ Barrett, Andrew Nembhard, Shamiel Stevenson, Shawkon Barrett, Keshaun Saunders, and Grant Audu.

The Ontario team that NS beat in the 2016 U17 finals included Bediako, Miller, K. Bennett, and J. Brown.
And the Ontario team that NS beat in the 2016 U15 finals included Hemmings, Patterson, Sakota, and Moncrief.

And ON isn't the only team that has guys missing because of AAU commitments. NS's big upset win in 2015 was without Lindell Wigginton.

frumble, good memory. Just a couple of notes about what you wrote: The 2015 U17 finals indeed included Barrett (who was the MVP), but he was two years younger than the competition and lost to a momentous 50-point game by Nate Darling, playing on home court.

The 2016 U15 ON team included Patterson, Sakota and Moncrief, but Hemmings was injured (and some other top players like McNeilly were also missing). Still, that was a huge upset and Ontario were just playing really bad team basketball and defense in that tournament (especially Patterson), so they lost even though the difference in talent was very obvious.

As for the Tynes brothers, yes Chase is too old for this team, and for some reason is also not considered a top talent in his class, perhaps due to what Lukeem was talking about (lack of sufficient competition). I do like his game a lot. Kellen is a year younger and perhaps will be considered for the U17 later on this summer. He's a real nice PG now, very smart, composed, and a great passer, and a fantastic sense for stealing the ball on defense. But, as I said, he's a bit undersized. One of the good things though, is that, unlike Chase, he at least gets to play against decent competition and gets good exposure throughout the year thanks to the NPA and the fact that both New Brunswick and Nova Scotia now have a teams in that league.

Finally, regarding Lual Akot, he's actually from Ottawa, so still Ontario, but at least out of the GTA. The thing with him, after I've watched many more of his games, is that there are days where he totally looks the part of a high-major potential, with shots falling in, confidence, driving and dishing, and impressive athleticism. But then there are too many days, especially during the last half of the season, where he just looked awful. Nothing dropped, he lost confidence, and he wasn't even the best player on his team. So I think eventaully it was probably a good call not to have him on the roster. He's just not stable and good enough at this point, although the potential is still there.

[InfraRedshaw]

NS has surprising amount of basketball culture tbh

[Pooh_Jeter]

I'm far from a high school basketball expert, but as someone who has lived in BC my entire life and has followed high school hoops at least cursorily, I can't say I'm surprised at the lack of representation from here.

The thing is there is a pretty solid basketball culture out here, a lot of people play and there are leagues/teams spread across all competition levels. The elite youth basketball programs aren't near the quality/quantity of say the GTA, but they are out here.

I think the biggest thing is just the calibre of athlete. You have skilled ballers out here, but in terms of an athlete who is worthy of an elite D1 program and has NBA potential you just don't see it. Grant Shephard was the most notable BC player in the youth ranks as of late and if we are being honest his strength was being big and coordinated. His team won the Provincials and he won MVP with a year of high school eligibility left.

Basically, there are quality CIS recruits out here, but in terms of breaking into the next level you just don't see it.