Moderators: j4remi, NoLayupRule, HerSports85, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36
WajaBawl wrote:As a Dane, I commend you guys for speaking out like you've done in this thread. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to watch your country fall apart like it has done these past years. Although despicable, this has been very interesting to follow, and discourse like this gets lost in the Twittersphere.
Hang in there. It's good to know that there are at least some people out there who have their heads screwed on straight.
Dave DaButcher wrote:thebuzzardman wrote:nykinoz wrote:As an Aussie, watching from afar, you guys voted for what you've ended up with? Is everybody washing there hands of the fact this guy was voted in? He was pretty clear on what he stood for, his past history is littered with examples of what sort of person he his, which is a pretty clear precursor for what his leadership would look like.
No. He has a base that support what he does no matter what. I don't have the keystrokes to go into the variety of reasons why, but there are zillion articles on it. Basically a mixture of years of republican propaganda, dysfunctional government, populism, and good old fashioned racism. As Clyde alludes to, a lot of people also stake out pre-baked ideological positions and as crazy as it sounds, as the right of the USA has moved further right, a lot of otherwise seemingly "ok" people have adopted some weird tendencies. I mean, besides the truly honestly racist. And then there is a sizable chunk of the electorate that hated him in the primary and still do. I'm not sure what the size of the % of the country that was "on the fence" or "undecided". I can't imagine there's a large independent block waiting to make up their mind. I'd like to think he's lost some conservative support along the way, but it feels like very little. I'd assume that'll change if/when he's perp walked out of the white house with his sons, daughter and son in law.
Looks like Aussies have dealt with some unpopular guys too, though I'd guess how the PM is selected isn't exactly the same:
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-three-australian-pms-who-were-even-more-unpopular-than-donald-trump-20180111-h0grlp.html
Good diagnosis. I would add that, despite all of the trends and reasons you note,Trump’s victory was also a consequence of the fact that too many millennials failed to show up to the polls (or threw their votes away on the Green candidate), having been persuaded that Hillary was nearly as bad.
Trump’s ascension is further the ultimate manifestation of a celebrity-obsessed culture, where experience and knowledge are viewed as negative attributes.
Trump is unfortunately not a phenomenon unique to the U.S. We are seeing manifestations of him in Brexit,Le Pen, and other nativist know-nothing movements across the globe. The danger.this represents to liberty both here and abroad is obvious.
Lastly, I would suggest that we get the leaders we deserve. Hence, Trump together with the Quislings in Congress sadly say more about us than him.
Still, we have faced greater challenges in the past, and I remain hopeful that we will awaken from our current national nightmare stronger on the other side of it. Then again, that kind of naive hopefulness has kept me a suffering Knicks fan for lo these many years...
Clyde_Style wrote:Jeff Van Gully wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:
You're being very compartmentalized about this. That trait is what allows good people to tacitly accept insidious support of toxic lies until it is too late to fight back. Like I said, those people you work with that you are tolerating because you probably don't have a choice as it is your livelihood are perfectly OK with the monkey talk whether they say it themselves or not.
This nation is full of closet racists and Trump is so obscenely racist that supporting him now can no longer be compartmentalized as liking some things without being a racist. You are what you eat and your beliefs are what you support.
If Trump were not a fascist and a racist then there'd be some grey areas left to allow for people to support someone they don't fully abide by, but this administration has scorched the earth of the body politic and forced people to take sides.
Saying Roseanne's statements got her fired is true. Saying it has nothing to do with being a MAGA POS person is completely false. They are inextricably entwined and compartmentalizing the truth does not explain this one bit.
i agree 100%. i'm a black man. i took a HARD line and went in on all my white friends. challenged them that they had the luxury to roll with racism as a secondary or tertiary issue when i have no such luxury. no one took me up on that olive branch and i drew lines.
i make no excuses for any trump supporter. my only point is that roseanne's support of trump is not what got her canned... not that it should or should not have been. if she said that and voted for obama twice she'd be just as cooked.
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
Dave DaButcher wrote:Almost as despicable as his grossly inappropriate Memorial Day tweet:
?s=21
F*ck him! POS scumbag.
The problem is that Donald Trump is a toxic president who amassed his power through the provocation of hate. He has behaved as if conservatism and racism are synonymous when, in fact, they are not. The problem is that having a major character on a prominent television show as a Trump supporter normalizes racism and misogyny and xenophobia.
President Trump often seems like a living embodiment of Ms. Barr’s Twitter feed, and many of his most vocal supporters revel in that. They revel in the freedom and the permission to be racist. The reboot contributed to a cultural moment that makes white people feel exceedingly comfortable and entitled as they police black bodies in public spaces.
I have, as of late, been thinking a lot about such policing and how, historically, black people have negotiated white entitlement to their bodies. The “Negro Motorist Green Book” was an annual guidebook curated during the Jim Crow era to let black people know where they could safely find gas, food and lodging while traveling across the United States by car. The “Green Book” was created out of necessity, and though it ceased publication in 1966, recent events have made it clear that there is still a need for some kind of guidebook detailing where it is safe to be black. Recent events have made it clear that such a guidebook would be a very slender volume indeed.
-Lolade Siyonbola, a black Yale graduate student, was napping in her dorm’s common room when a white woman came upon her, told Ms. Siyonbola she couldn’t sleep there and called the police. Ms. Siyonbola then had to prove she had a right to be in her dorm, on her college campus.
-In Southern California, three black women were checking out of an Airbnb rental and loading their luggage into the car when they were suddenly surrounded by police cars. A white woman had seen three black people with luggage, assumed they were criminals, and because the women didn’t smile or wave at the white woman, she called the police on them.
-Three black teenagers in St. Louis shopping for a prom at a Nordstrom’s Rack were followed by two store employees throughout their time there. When the teenagers left the store with their purchases, the police were waiting.
-Five black women were golfing in Pennsylvania when the police were called because the women were, purportedly, golfing too slowly.
-Some black people were having a barbecue in an Oakland, Calif., public space and a white woman called the police on them for using a charcoal grill.
-In Philadelphia last month, two black men waiting for a business meeting with a third person in a Starbucks were arrested for sitting in a Starbucks while black.
In each of these encounters, white people took it upon themselves to police black bodies in public spaces. They felt entitled to do so because of racism, which they used to delineate the borders of what they arbitrarily determined as acceptable behavior for black people. They felt this entitlement because that’s what racism does — it allows one group of people to feel superior to and imagine dominion over another.
On the same day that Ms. Barr sent her vile tweet, Starbucks closed all its American stores for a few hours of training about racial bias, as part of its campaign to rehabilitate the company’s image and ensure that what happened in Philadelphia doesn’t happen again.
nykinoz wrote:As an Aussie, watching from afar, you guys voted for what you've ended up with? Is everybody washing there hands of the fact this guy was voted in? He was pretty clear on what he stood for, his past history is littered with examples of what sort of person he his, which is a pretty clear precursor for what his leadership would look like.
Kampuchea wrote:nykinoz wrote:As an Aussie, watching from afar, you guys voted for what you've ended up with? Is everybody washing there hands of the fact this guy was voted in? He was pretty clear on what he stood for, his past history is littered with examples of what sort of person he his, which is a pretty clear precursor for what his leadership would look like.
I've lived out of the US for 5 years in Cambodia, most of my mates ended up Aussies. Best for getting on the piss, that's a given. And most of them weren't even Bogans!
I do know many people overseas that were celebrating Trump being elected, let's just say 'Muricans are not very popular and people were looking forward to laughing at us.
I think Trump hit on some points with the whole "drain the swamp" and making it appear he was fighting for the well-being of certain elements of our society. White trash is a large part of that, racists as well.
In any event, I have been looking at other countries to consider a move including Australia. It is complicated as my wife is in the midst of getting a USA visa. I do not like the guns, the racism, the hate, the anger, the imbeciles. I only returned as my son can get an education superior to Cambodia.
In short, he was voted in because we have far too many racists and idiots in the country.
HarthorneWingo wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/opinion/roseanne-canceled-abc-racist-tweets.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region®ion=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-regionThe problem is that Donald Trump is a toxic president who amassed his power through the provocation of hate. He has behaved as if conservatism and racism are synonymous when, in fact, they are not. The problem is that having a major character on a prominent television show as a Trump supporter normalizes racism and misogyny and xenophobia.
President Trump often seems like a living embodiment of Ms. Barr’s Twitter feed, and many of his most vocal supporters revel in that. They revel in the freedom and the permission to be racist. The reboot contributed to a cultural moment that makes white people feel exceedingly comfortable and entitled as they police black bodies in public spaces.
I have, as of late, been thinking a lot about such policing and how, historically, black people have negotiated white entitlement to their bodies. The “Negro Motorist Green Book” was an annual guidebook curated during the Jim Crow era to let black people know where they could safely find gas, food and lodging while traveling across the United States by car. The “Green Book” was created out of necessity, and though it ceased publication in 1966, recent events have made it clear that there is still a need for some kind of guidebook detailing where it is safe to be black. Recent events have made it clear that such a guidebook would be a very slender volume indeed.
-Lolade Siyonbola, a black Yale graduate student, was napping in her dorm’s common room when a white woman came upon her, told Ms. Siyonbola she couldn’t sleep there and called the police. Ms. Siyonbola then had to prove she had a right to be in her dorm, on her college campus.
-In Southern California, three black women were checking out of an Airbnb rental and loading their luggage into the car when they were suddenly surrounded by police cars. A white woman had seen three black people with luggage, assumed they were criminals, and because the women didn’t smile or wave at the white woman, she called the police on them.
-Three black teenagers in St. Louis shopping for a prom at a Nordstrom’s Rack were followed by two store employees throughout their time there. When the teenagers left the store with their purchases, the police were waiting.
-Five black women were golfing in Pennsylvania when the police were called because the women were, purportedly, golfing too slowly.
-Some black people were having a barbecue in an Oakland, Calif., public space and a white woman called the police on them for using a charcoal grill.
-In Philadelphia last month, two black men waiting for a business meeting with a third person in a Starbucks were arrested for sitting in a Starbucks while black.
In each of these encounters, white people took it upon themselves to police black bodies in public spaces. They felt entitled to do so because of racism, which they used to delineate the borders of what they arbitrarily determined as acceptable behavior for black people. They felt this entitlement because that’s what racism does — it allows one group of people to feel superior to and imagine dominion over another.
On the same day that Ms. Barr sent her vile tweet, Starbucks closed all its American stores for a few hours of training about racial bias, as part of its campaign to rehabilitate the company’s image and ensure that what happened in Philadelphia doesn’t happen again.
HarthorneWingo wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:Jeff Van Gully wrote:
i agree 100%. i'm a black man. i took a HARD line and went in on all my white friends. challenged them that they had the luxury to roll with racism as a secondary or tertiary issue when i have no such luxury. no one took me up on that olive branch and i drew lines.
i make no excuses for any trump supporter. my only point is that roseanne's support of trump is not what got her canned... not that it should or should not have been. if she said that and voted for obama twice she'd be just as cooked.
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
This was an issue at that Town Hall yesterday on racism. The point was made - and heard - that white people need to step up their game and stop turning a blind eye to this.
King of Canada wrote:HarthorneWingo wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
This was an issue at that Town Hall yesterday on racism. The point was made - and heard - that white people need to step up their game and stop turning a blind eye to this.
I've put my foot in my mouth on here in the past trying to be funny or just naive, having no perspective at all. I'm a white guy that grew up in one of the original Black Loyalist landing places in Canada. A large percentage of my schoolmates were black, and I was raised by two great parents with no racist leanings at all. I didn't even know about racism being a thing until the pro-black movement in Hip Hop in the late 80s/early 90s, and it really started to be talked about among my peers (although racism was part of daily life for a ton of people in my community). I've lived my whole life just being me and the way I was raised, and all of this is part of the problem.
Right now I have three kids, and they were raised the same way I was. They see the physical and cultural differences in people, but are accepting of everyone. I try to talk to them about racism, but they're still young and I don't even know where to start. They're going to grow up to be great people, but I agree that it's no longer enough to just be a good person, etc....Approaching racism for people who don't have to deal with it every day is like trying to get people out to vote, but way harder. I'm always so hesitant to comment in threads where race is being discussed out of fear of sounding insensitive or outright stupid. I'm a very empathetic person, and I am aware of the issues out there and it does bother me deeply any time I see or read about something happening. I live in a very white middle class neighborhood and feel generally powerless and like an outsider in these discussions. I'm doing my part by raising good people, but it feels like such a tiny contribution.
Dave DaButcher wrote:Almost as despicable as his grossly inappropriate Memorial Day tweet:
?s=21
earthmansurfer wrote:Dave DaButcher wrote:Almost as despicable as his grossly inappropriate Memorial Day tweet:
?s=21
Actually, it is a great point. What are the rules? A bad tweet gets a show cancelled.
But the assasination innuendos+ (e.g. Gifford holding the bloody Trump head. Many examples here.) are business as normal and free speech.
The one conservative show is off the air. Last man standing is coming back, but they will be booted, just give it time.
And I am not a conservative, and no longer a dem.
Just seems like Hollywood (liberal) and Silicon valley (liberal), most of MSM (minus 50% of FOX) are totally against what half the people voted for and are trying to be the govt. Dangerous situation.
earthmansurfer wrote:Dave DaButcher wrote:Almost as despicable as his grossly inappropriate Memorial Day tweet:
?s=21
Actually, it is a great point. What are the rules? A bad tweet gets a show cancelled.
But the assasination innuendos+ (e.g. Gifford holding the bloody Trump head. Many examples here.) are business as normal and free speech.
The one conservative show is off the air. Last man standing is coming back, but they will be booted, just give it time.
And I am not a conservative, and no longer a dem.
Just seems like Hollywood (liberal) and Silicon valley (liberal), most of MSM (minus 50% of FOX) are totally against what half the people voted for and are trying to be the govt. Dangerous situation.
HarthorneWingo wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:Jeff Van Gully wrote:
i agree 100%. i'm a black man. i took a HARD line and went in on all my white friends. challenged them that they had the luxury to roll with racism as a secondary or tertiary issue when i have no such luxury. no one took me up on that olive branch and i drew lines.
i make no excuses for any trump supporter. my only point is that roseanne's support of trump is not what got her canned... not that it should or should not have been. if she said that and voted for obama twice she'd be just as cooked.
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
This was an issue at that Town Hall yesterday on racism. The point was made - and heard - that white people need to step up their game and stop turning a blind eye to this.
King of Canada wrote:HarthorneWingo wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
This was an issue at that Town Hall yesterday on racism. The point was made - and heard - that white people need to step up their game and stop turning a blind eye to this.
I've put my foot in my mouth on here in the past trying to be funny or just naive, having no perspective at all. I'm a white guy that grew up in one of the original Black Loyalist landing places in Canada. A large percentage of my schoolmates were black, and I was raised by two great parents with no racist leanings at all. I didn't even know about racism being a thing until the pro-black movement in Hip Hop in the late 80s/early 90s, and it really started to be talked about among my peers (although racism was part of daily life for a ton of people in my community). I've lived my whole life just being me and the way I was raised, and all of this is part of the problem.
Right now I have three kids, and they were raised the same way I was. They see the physical and cultural differences in people, but are accepting of everyone. I try to talk to them about racism, but they're still young and I don't even know where to start. They're going to grow up to be great people, but I agree that it's no longer enough to just be a good person, etc....Approaching racism for people who don't have to deal with it every day is like trying to get people out to vote, but way harder. I'm always so hesitant to comment in threads where race is being discussed out of fear of sounding insensitive or outright stupid. I'm a very empathetic person, and I am aware of the issues out there and it does bother me deeply any time I see or read about something happening. I live in a very white middle class neighborhood and feel generally powerless and like an outsider in these discussions. I'm doing my part by raising good people, but it feels like such a tiny contribution.
Jeff Van Gully wrote:HarthorneWingo wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:
Understood.
Glad you took a stand. It is kind of terrible experience to have to go through I'm sure, but in your case you felt it was necessary.
I don't see any middle ground any longer. MAGA world depends on people being "normal" which = non-confrontational. That allows the disease to infect and spread.
You get it
This was an issue at that Town Hall yesterday on racism. The point was made - and heard - that white people need to step up their game and stop turning a blind eye to this.
they can afford to say, "hey. i'm no racist. i just agree with the economic po--"
no... STFU. you deem racism acceptable.
earthmansurfer wrote:Dave DaButcher wrote:Almost as despicable as his grossly inappropriate Memorial Day tweet:
?s=21
Actually, it is a great point. What are the rules? A bad tweet gets a show cancelled.
But the assasination innuendos+ (e.g. Gifford holding the bloody Trump head. Many examples here.) are business as normal and free speech.
The one conservative show is off the air. Last man standing is coming back, but they will be booted, just give it time.
And I am not a conservative, and no longer a dem.
Just seems like Hollywood (liberal) and Silicon valley (liberal), most of MSM (minus 50% of FOX) are totally against what half the people voted for and are trying to be the govt. Dangerous situation.
