'17-'18 POY discussion

[TheSkeptic]

Players shoot 2.9% worse when LeBron is the closest defender within 6 feet of the rim and when shots are from 15+ feet (think jump shots), players are shooting just 38.2% against LeBron (10% worse than their averages). I don't know how accurate these are, but they certainly support my eye test of LeBron being average to above average for a majority of minutes on the defensive end while having the ability to turn into a gear not many can reach.

Interesting statistic, I appreciate you bringing it up. I looked it up for who seem to be the top 5 players, along with two perennial top defenders in Gobert and Green. All are of the format G-DFGM-DFGA-DFG%-FG%-DIFF%

For the regular season-

Overall
James 82 4.9 11.1 44.7 45.9 -1.2
Harden 72 5.7 12.3 46.3 45.8 +0.5
Curry 51 4.0 8.5 47.2 44.6 +2.6
Durant 67 5.1 12.1 42.1 45.7 -3.6
Davis 75 6.5 16.4 39.6 46.9 -7.2
---
Gobert 56 7.3 16.1 45.4 48.1 -2.7
Green 70 6.0 14.1 42.9 46.4 -3.5

>15 ft
James 82 2.2 5.6 38.7 37.2 +1.4
Harden 72 2.5 6.5 39.0 37.3 +1.7
Curry 51 1.8 4.8 36.6 37.1 -0.4
Durant 67 2.0 5.9 33.6 36.7 -3.1
Davis 75 2.4 7.4 32.3 37.6 -5.2
---
Gobert 56 2.0 4.7 42.4 37.1 +5.3
Green 70 2.2 6.5 34.6 37.1 -2.5

<6 ft
James 82 2.1 3.8 54.5 61.6 -7.0
Harden 72 2.3 3.5 77.0 62.2 +3.8
Curry 51 1.6 2.0 76.9 60.4 +16.5
Durant 67 2.5 4.3 56.7 62.0 -5.3
Davis 75 3.3 6.5 51.2 62.0 -10.8
---
Gobert 56 4.0 7.7 51.9 61.8 -10.0
Green 70 2.9 5.2 54.6 61.6 -7.0

For the playoffs-

Overall
James 19 5.2 11.8 43.6 46.2 -2.7
Harden 17 5.0 11.1 45.2 48.0 -2.8
Curry 12 5.1 11.3 44.9 45.5 -0.7
Durant 18 5.1 12.0 42.1 46.3 -4.2
Davis 9 6.9 17.2 40.0 46.7 -6.7
---
Gobert 11 8.4 18.2 46.0 48.6 -2.6
Green 18 7.3 17.6 41.5 47.3 -5.9

>15 ft
James 19 1.5 5.4 28.2 38.2 -10.0
Harden 17 1.6 5.1 31.4 39.1 -7.7
Curry 12 2.0 6.0 33.3 37.0 -3.6
Durant 18 2.2 6.4 33.9 36.5 -2.6
Davis 9 2.0 6.7 30.0 36.8 -6.8
---
Gobert 11 1.7 4.1 42.2 37.0 +5.2
Green 18 1.9 7.1 26.6 36.3 -9.7

<6 ft
James 19 2.7 4.6 58.0 60.9 -2.9
Harden 17 2.1 3.3 64.3 63.8 +0.5
Curry 12 2.2 3.0 72.2 63.2 +9.0
Durant 18 2.3 3.9 57.7 64.4 -6.7
Davis 9 4.0 7.7 52.2 62.5 -10.3
---
Gobert 11 4.7 9.9 47.7 62.4 -14.7
Green 18 4.1 7.3 55.3 64.3 -9.0

Also, Defensive APM from here for the Regular Season)

James -1.78
Harden +0.24
Curry -0.20
Durant -2.08
Davis +1.41
---
Gobert +2.41
Green +1.34

Postseason (thru 5/23)

James -0.49
Harden +0.78
Curry +0.94
Durant +0.24
Davis +0.58
---
Gobert +0.25
Green +1.34

It seems none of the top 5 players have really been consistently good on defense, with the exception of Davis. Are James, Harden, Curry that much better than him on offense, or should he be getting more top 3 talk?

[MartinToVaught]

Is it possible for Lebron to win Finals MVP? I don't see any way he doesn't end up averaging a near 40+ points triple double. I could see both Curry and Durant averaging 25. He almost did it in 2015, and the media push this year has been all about Lebron's one man show. IIRC, it's only a small panel of media voters, so he'd just need a slight split in the pro-GS voters, and ~40% of the votes.

He deserves it, and I really hope he does, but I just don't see it. 2015 proved that the media has an irrational aversion to rewarding players on the losing team, even when they're clearly better and more valuable to their team than anyone on the winning team.

Honestly, this playoff run by LeBron is just another reason why I wish the NBA would get rid of the Finals MVP award and replace it with their own version of the Conn Smythe. It makes more sense to reward sustained excellence over the course of the whole playoffs, not a tiny one-series sample size. LeBron would have won it in 2015 and would have been a shoo-in for it this year, much like J.S. Giguère, Ron Hextall and others have won the Conn Smythe in a losing effort.

[MartinToVaught]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Durant joined the 73-win team that beat him, and Curry helped recruit him. This title shouldn't do anything positive for their legacies. Nothing they ever win together should.

When you collude to stack the deck at a level that is structurally impossible for any other team to match, and there's no real competition, winning a ring every year is what you're supposed to do. Praising them for that is like praising them for showing up to the arena on time for the games.

And yes, the fact that they're getting exposed this badly and still winning due to their team's unfair talent advantage + biased officiating makes it even worse.

[MartinToVaught]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

[HeartBreakKid]

Durant won't lose Warrior fans. During the RS last year Warrior fans were complaining about the relative lack of ball movement, and by the time they won the title all people talked about was how Durant was a perfect fit (lol).

Durant, however, will be the scapegoat when things go sour because he is the outsider. Warrior fans will always protect Curry in favor of Durant.

[bondom34]

I don't know if I've ever felt as vinidcated on a basketball opinion as I do.right now about Durant.

[Texas Chuck]

I don't know if I've ever felt as vinidcated on a basketball opinion as I do.right now about Durant.

vindicated or vindictive?

[Doctor MJ]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Durant joined the 73-win team that beat him, and Curry helped recruit him. This title shouldn't do anything positive for their legacies. Nothing they ever win together should.

I disagree with this. I think that trying to build the greatest dynasty ever is a worthwhile accomplishment, and if it is achieved by definition means working past change and egos in a way that's never been done before.

I think we would agree though that the Warriors we are watching right now doesn't feel like a team achievement so much as talent overload making up for poor fit, and this isn't all that beautiful of an accomplishment.

Watching Durant's interaction with his teammates this year, it's just really discouraging for me. I felt like they had better synergy in the first year together, and I don't really know what to attribute the fall off to other than egos walking on egg shells. While pragmatically it's hard to imagine GS volunteering to let Durant go - he's still easily a net positive that's basically impossible to replace - the fan in me pines for the Harrison Barnes era...which is hilarious because I really not a Barnes fan.

[bondom34]

I don't know if I've ever felt as vinidcated on a basketball opinion as I do.right now about Durant.

vindicated or vindictive?

Why not both?

Though I was a bit more critical of him his last few OKC seasons as well. At least relative to those who were fans at the time. Most everything I thought when.he went to Oakland ended up staying true. He's the exact player he's always been.

[Dr Positivity]

isn't it crazy to think that this title might end up doing nothing for Curry/Durant in an all-time sense? their expectations have been so high with significant underperformance, their flaws have gotten the spotlight, they're getting outshone by a guy on the other team, and they're turning more and more people off with each passing game. what if they lose an FMVP to Lebron?

I mean it'd be one thing if it was GP on the 06 Heat but it's two superstars in the middle of their prime and yet...I couldn't see them vaulting up an all-time list.

Why does it not help Curry? He might get his Finals MVP, and I don't have that much criticism over how he's approached the game these playoffs compared to Durant

[pelifan]

I don't know if I've ever felt as vinidcated on a basketball opinion as I do.right now about Durant.

It feels pretty good Bondom.

I feel like the majority of people just dont watch games. Durant was called a great team player because he shoots 50/40/90 and thats it. With OKC, every time Westbrook stands around offball, isos, or doesn't pass the narrative was he's a bad teammate but every time Durant does it it's because the coach runs a bad offense. I sorta thought it would be fine because with GS as KD could get open shots just by standing around but I knew KD would revert to this kind of player if GS faced any adversity, just like he did when OKC was not in rhythm.

[dhsilv2]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

[MartinToVaught]

I disagree with this. I think that trying to build the greatest dynasty ever is a worthwhile accomplishment, and if it is achieved by definition means working past change and egos in a way that's never been done before.

To me, the accomplishment is cheapened not only because of KD joining them, but also because of the shadiness with Iguodala in that playoff series against the Nuggets, followed by him joining them. If you're part of the anti-tank crowd (I personally am not), the Warriors also tanked to keep the pick that became Harrison Barnes. And Curry was only still on the board when the Warriors picked him because he pulled a Kobe and manipulated the Timberwolves into not drafting him.

This is why it's comical when Warriors fans point to their team as an example of organic team-building done right. If the process was truly organic, Curry would be a T-Wolf, and Iggy, Barnes, and KD would have never been on the Warriors.

Watching Durant's interaction with his teammates this year, it's just really discouraging for me. I felt like they had better synergy in the first year together, and I don't really know what to attribute the fall off to other than egos walking on egg shells.

My theory is that it's insecurity on Durant's part. It really got under his skin that nobody respected his ring last year. That was evident from his burner accounts, how visibly upset he was about Peyton Manning's joke at the ESPYs, and all the defensive comments he's made in the media all year.

So now he's playing isoball, desperately trying to make it look like he's carrying a team that needs him to win. In the process, he's actually just exposing all his flaws as a player and leader.

[HeartBreakKid]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

I mean the internet didn't exist in 83 - but why would someone with the talent of Durant want to be like Moses Malone? Moses Malone is basically forgotten, and it is almost trivia when remembering that he had 3 MVPs (like literally, many people don't know that). His legacy really is not that strong when you consider his accomplishments.

It's also a stretch to say Malone did exactly what Durant did. Malone left a worse team than Durant did, and joined a team that wasn't as good or as accomplished as Durant's either (also, the Sixers were older weren't they? They didn't even have Doug Collins anymore by that point).

[MartinToVaught]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

Durant is insecure. He cares deeply about what everyone thinks about him. He wants to be liked. So I'd say the fact that he's lost so much fan support matters a lot to him and his legacy.

[dhsilv2]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

I mean the internet didn't exist in 83 - but why would someone with the talent of Durant want to be like Moses Malone? Moses Malone is basically forgotten, and it is almost trivia when remembering that he had 3 MVPs (like literally, many people don't know that). His legacy really is not that strong when you consider his accomplishments.

It's also a stretch to say Malone did exactly what Durant did. Malone left a worse team than Durant did, and joined a team that wasn't as good or as accomplished as Durant's either (also, the Sixers were older weren't they? They didn't even have Doug Collins anymore by that point).

Moses unfortunately peaks just a few years before the NBA exploded. Really only Kareem is remembered from the 70's as a whole, I guess Dr J from his ABA days.

The 76ers had made 2 of the last 3 NBA finals and lost to the champs (Boston) the year they missed the finals (lost in 7). Given how good the lakers and celtics were, I'm not sure the 76ers weren't at least comparable to the warriors in terms of accomplishments (yes 73 and yes a ring I get the gap).

As for age Dr J and Jones were 32 so yes they were older, though Cheeks was just coming into his prime. Collins was gone but they replaced him with Toney (who was 25 and would make 2 straight allstar games).

As for the rockets, they made the NBA finals in 81 and lost to the celtics. He went to the 76ers in 83.

I'm not sure if/how it is even possible to be more similar.

[dhsilv2]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

Durant is insecure. He cares deeply about what everyone thinks about him. He wants to be liked. So I'd say the fact that he's lost so much fan support matters a lot to him and his legacy.

I can understand it matters to him. I don't see this being a problem long term for his legacy if the warriors keep this run going. Winning this year and next year would really put his legacy up there for anyone who follows the game for decades to come. If the warriors fall off, then perhaps the 2 titles will have less meaning than it normally would.

[Doctor MJ]

Durant, however, will be the scapegoat when things go sour because he is the outsider. Warrior fans will always protect Curry in favor of Durant.

There's just this truth though that the Warriors play their best with Steph-ball rather than KD-ball. I think it's right to point out that there's more to it than just "Durant's breaking the offense", but to me the "outsider" issue is clearly about more than just the fact that the Warriors were champions before Durant. If I were to try to boil it down, what I'd say is that the OG Warriors need to get better at asserting themselves when things get tough, while Durant needs to work on his on-the-fly decision making.

Of course the real elephant in the room is that Durant does things that really seem to make clear that he has an ego he wants to be fed and needs to be placated, and the essence of the Warrior vibe is a lack of personal ego. Maybe this isn't as big of a deal as it at times seems, but it sticks out rather embarrassingly.

[Doctor MJ]

The most ironic part of all this is the criticism KD is starting to get from Warriors fans.

All last offseason and all season, the narrative was that KD plays "team ball" and LeBron and Westbrook don't. "Portability" became a buzzword for Durant, much like "verticality" was for Roy Hibbert.

From the Houston series on, there's been a growing number of Warriors fans criticizing Durant for playing too much isoball and being incapable of playing within a system. Just look at this thread, for instance:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1711059

Joining the Warriors really was the worst move KD could have made for his legacy. He lost every other fanbase with that move and now he's even starting to lose Warriors fans.

Why does one need fans to build a legacy? This team could hypothetically win the next 4-5 NBA titles. Doesn't matter how much you like or dislike the key pieces, if they do something spectacular the legacy will be all over the NBA record books and history will have nothing but positive stories of their accomplishments.

So much of the negativity of the moment goes away with time. When was the last time you heard someone trash Moses for doing exactly what KD did?

Durant is insecure. He cares deeply about what everyone thinks about him. He wants to be liked. So I'd say the fact that he's lost so much fan support matters a lot to him and his legacy.

Yeah, Durant's media issue in a nutshell is that he's just so clearly trying to front with an persona that has the social confidence that he doesn't have, and the persona he chooses to present is arrogant and mean. It results in him looking bad on multiple levels, and if happens over and over again.

We've seen many athletes who "lose" in the age of social media because they make a particular egregious mistake, or they are just revealed to be turds, but what Durant's managed to do in the last few years (it started well before he left OKC) is something really unusual. Of course it doesn't help that other NBA stars have become some adept at using social media. We compare Durant not just to LeBron and Steph but someone like Joel Embiid. That guy basically just learned what a cheeseburger is and he understands all this stuff so much better than Durant ever will.

[dontcalltimeout]

Of course the real elephant in the room is that Durant does things that really seem to make clear that he has an ego he wants to be fed and needs to be placated, and the essence of the Warrior vibe is a lack of personal ego. Maybe this isn't as big of a deal as it at times seems, but it sticks out rather embarrassingly.

A good friend of mine who's a diehard Dubs fan mentioned that, though the crowd was chanting "MVP" for Steph, their heart wasn't in it because they're worried about alienating KD.

It also didn't escape me that Kerr, trying to get KD to trust his teammates, used MJ as the analogy. It seems like an effort to try to offer constructive criticism without risking Durant's ego.