'17-'18 POY discussion

Jaivl · Post #4541 » by **Jaivl** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 5:04 pm

Joey Wheeler wrote:If Curry was in Milwaukee and Giannis a part of this GSW roster no one would be peddling this 100%-results driven narrative.

We'd be centered around the LeBron-Harden debate in the finals instead.

therealbig3 · Post #4542 » by **therealbig3** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 5:15 pm

I agree that Curry is clearly superior to Giannis when both play, but I just can't look past the missed games, sorry. If Giannis missed that many games, his team would have been out of the playoffs. As is, his team came close to beating the Celtics in the 1st round. Without him, his team gets swept.

Curry is fortunate to be on a team that can win a lot of games and a 1st round playoff series without him, maybe even 2 (they crushed NO in game 1 without him). If he was on another team, that team suffers greatly for losing him and probably isn't anywhere near as successful. And that would be a big deal. The only reason we're able to hand wave away the missed time is because he's on GS, who still has 3 All-Stars even if Curry goes down, so the team still wins. Curry shouldn't get rewarded in a POY context because of that.

Heej · Post #4543 » by **Heej** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 6:38 pm

For me the missed games count less than the impact on winning. I truly think Curry's total value added has been greater. Part of it is that the team got past the first round without him, but if they switch places Curry is that much better than Giannis (especially in closing games) that they'd have had a real shot at being better than a 7th seed going into the playoffs.

Giannis plays more games but I think each game Steph played he gave his team that much higher a chance of winning that it made up for the increased percentage of winning Giannis added by playing in the games Steph missed. I think we've learned in these playoffs that there's entire vast gulfs of distance in impact between the top 2 or 3 players in the league at any given moment and the guys a tier below. If a Giannis tier guy adds 20% to win probability I believe Steph is legitimately a 25% guy comparatively. I personally value that more because Steph's impact above a replacement level player just far outstrips Giannis'. Though I welcome the disagreements

Edit: I rather like my guy Doctor MJ's concept of shape or profile of impact. I think Steph's impact profile is more advantageous and less easily replaced or replicated than the Profile of a Lebron or Giannis. Though LeBron is simply better. If you remove both, a competent lead ballhandler can replace a point forward more easily than a JJ Reddick type off ball screen runner can replace what Steph brings imo

Post #4544 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 6:44 pm

therealbig3 wrote:I agree that Curry is clearly superior to Giannis when both play, but I just can't look past the missed games, sorry. If Giannis missed that many games, his team would have been out of the playoffs. As is, his team came close to beating the Celtics in the 1st round. Without him, his team gets swept.

Curry is fortunate to be on a team that can win a lot of games and a 1st round playoff series without him, maybe even 2 (they crushed NO in game 1 without him). If he was on another team, that team suffers greatly for losing him and probably isn't anywhere near as successful. And that would be a big deal. The only reason we're able to hand wave away the missed time is because he's on GS, who still has 3 All-Stars even if Curry goes down, so the team still wins. Curry shouldn't get rewarded in a POY context because of that.

Makes sense. Very much a valid perspective.

dhsilv2 · Post #4545 » by **dhsilv2** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 7:43 pm

Heej wrote:For me the missed games count less than the impact on winning. I truly think Curry's total value added has been greater. Part of it is that the team got past the first round without him, but if they switch places Curry is that much better than Giannis (especially in closing games) that they'd have had a real shot at being better than a 7th seed going into the playoffs.

Giannis plays more games but I think each game Steph played he gave his team that much higher a chance of winning that it made up for the increased percentage of winning Giannis added by playing in the games Steph missed. I think we've learned in these playoffs that there's entire vast gulfs of distance in impact between the top 2 or 3 players in the league at any given moment and the guys a tier below. If a Giannis tier guy adds 20% to win probability I believe Steph is legitimately a 25% guy comparatively. I personally value that more because Steph's impact above a replacement level player just far outstrips Giannis'. Though I welcome the disagreements

Edit: I rather like my guy Doctor MJ's concept of shape or profile of impact. I think Steph's impact profile is more advantageous and less easily replaced or replicated than the Profile of a Lebron or Giannis. Though LeBron is simply better. If you remove both, a competent lead ballhandler can replace a point forward more easily than a JJ Reddick type off ball screen runner can replace what Steph brings imo

You really think the bucks would have won more games with 51 games of curry vs 75 games of Giannis? Just for fun I looked at WINS to see where it ranked them. Giannis comes out at 12.74 to Curry's 11.23. It certainly says they are a lot closer than I'd have expected, but I'm rather struggling to see a good case that curry would improve their record while playing 24 less games.

Peregrine01 · Post #4546 » by **Peregrine01** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 8:53 pm

I love Curry but I too think the missed games should count against him to some degree. Also, how much does post season performance count? Does curry get a leg up on Giannis for his team going deeper in the postseason and him being the most impactful player on said team?

eminence · Post #4547 » by **eminence** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 9:05 pm

I think everyone is docking Curry for the missed games, had he been healthy he'd likely be my #1.

Joey Wheeler · Post #4548 » by **Joey Wheeler** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 10:15 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Joey Wheeler wrote:If Curry was in Milwaukee and Giannis a part of this GSW roster no one would be peddling this 100%-results driven narrative.

We'd be centered around the LeBron-Harden debate in the finals instead.

Nah, would still be Lebron against the Warriors. Curry wasn't that great against the Rockets, there's no reason to believe Giannis couldn't match or exceed his impact in that series.

As usual, the pro-Curry narrative on this site doesn't seem to have much basis in reality. These playoffs, Giannis is even scoring the ball a bit more efficiently (which is supposed to be Curry's main edge over him) and that's with the only series he's played being against the #1 defense in the league. The only real argument for Curry being noticeably better is the Warriors being much better than the Bucks, but how much does that really count when GSW can outright stroll past the 1st round without Curry and only really needs some 3rd quarter scoring explosions from him in WCF to make the Finals?

Joey Wheeler · Post #4549 » by **Joey Wheeler** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 10:18 pm

Peregrine01 wrote:I love Curry but I too think the missed games should count against him to some degree. Also, how much does post season performance count? Does curry get a leg up on Giannis for his team going deeper in the postseason and him being the most impactful player on said team?

Why would he? Giannis has better playoff numbers + Curry hasn't been the best GSW player in the playoffs at all, Durant and Green have both definitely been better all things considered.

therealbig3 · Post #4550 » by **therealbig3** » Sun Jun 3, 2018 11:32 pm

Posted this on the GB, but figured it has its place here too, just to keep some perspective:

You know, as much as I hated KD's decision to go to GS, and as much as I actually feel that he's generally overrated, he's a good dude man. Watching that clip of how he helped those HS seniors just bought him a lot of respect in my book.

Easy to act like these guys aren't human beings and to just 100% judge them based on the basketball decisions they make, or their responses in the media, but KD has always seemed like a good dude and he's always been someone who's helped out in his community.

Props to him.

iggymcfrack · Post #4551 » by **iggymcfrack** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 12:46 am

Warriors D would be NASTY with Giannis instead of Steph. And Steph hasn’t played particularly well in the playoffs this year. I think Golden State would have gotten past Houston in 5 or 6 games this year if you swapped the two of them.

bballcool34 · Post #4552 » by **bballcool34** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:24 am

Ridiculous shot making by Curry

eminence · Post #4553 » by **eminence** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:39 am

Series has gone about how I'd expect so far, some fight from the Cavs, but doesn't look overly competitive. Which unfortunately leaves me quite conflicted what to do with LeBron. Ahh well, we'll see what happens in Cleveland.

Basileus777 · Post #4554 » by **Basileus777** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:39 am

Curry's missed games should absolutely be held against him, but he's the 2nd best player in the world when healthy.

And watching these Warriors, I continue to struggle to see why Durant should be ranked higher than Draymond. When the Warriors repeat, their defense is going to be why, and Green is simply making a profound impact there.

mischievous · Post #4555 » by **mischievous** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:44 am

eminence wrote:Series has gone about how I'd expect so far, some fight from the Cavs, but doesn't look overly competitive. Which unfortunately leaves me quite conflicted what to do with LeBron. Ahh well, we'll see what happens in Cleveland.

Lebron is averaging 40 ppg between these 2 games, I don’t see how he can possibly fall on POY list from this series.

Post #4556 » by **bondom34** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:45 am

therealbig3 wrote:Posted this on the GB, but figured it has its place here too, just to keep some perspective:

You know, as much as I hated KD's decision to go to GS, and as much as I actually feel that he's generally overrated, he's a good dude man. Watching that clip of how he helped those HS seniors just bought him a lot of respect in my book.

Easy to act like these guys aren't human beings and to just 100% judge them based on the basketball decisions they make, or their responses in the media, but KD has always seemed like a good dude and he's always been someone who's helped out in his community.

Props to him.

As someone who thinks he's wildly overrated as a player, he is a good person.

Insecure yes, but at heart he's a good guy. I just think he doesn't know how to interact w people a lot of times.

Post #4557 » by **bondom34** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:46 am

Yeah this has gone to script but I can't drop Lebron and it's cementing him at 1. My top 4 are locked, just gotta figure out who's at 5 and get to the other awards. MIP's Dipo, 6MOY is Lou, other than that not totally sure.

Peregrine01 · Post #4558 » by **Peregrine01** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:49 am

I think the "thing" that Kerr said he figured out on offense was to simply give Steph the ball and let him create than just having him run around off-ball and getting denied. Amazing how well the offense flows when Steph's usage is high.

ronnymac2 · Post #4559 » by **ronnymac2** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:49 am

Basileus777 wrote:Curry's missed games should absolutely be held against him, but he's the 2nd best player in the world when healthy.

And watching these Warriors, I continue to struggle to see why Durant should be ranked higher than Draymond. When the Warriors repeat, their defense is going to be why, and Green is simply making a profound impact there.

Do you see any potential disconnect in this post in regards to Curry and Green?

Peregrine01 · Post #4560 » by **Peregrine01** » Mon Jun 4, 2018 2:54 am

ronnymac2 wrote:
Basileus777 wrote:Curry's missed games should absolutely be held against him, but he's the 2nd best player in the world when healthy.

And watching these Warriors, I continue to struggle to see why Durant should be ranked higher than Draymond. When the Warriors repeat, their defense is going to be why, and Green is simply making a profound impact there.

Do you see any potential disconnect in this post in regards to Curry and Green?

Well, Steph is probably the best offensive player in the game when healthy. Green's defensive impact is enormous and quite remarkable considering the way the game is played today. KD simply doesn't match the impact of either the two guys.