'17-'18 POY discussion

[therealbig3]

lebron's injury appears to be self inflicted

does this affect anyone's evaluation of him? I've seen some people dock 85 Bird for his injury/bar fight, same thing apply here?

It should. But unlike Bird in 85, LeBron's play didn't significantly suffer (thought he was still great in games 2 and 3, subpar in game 4 though), and I don't think he cost his team anything. Can't say the same for 85 Bird though, Celtics could have very well won the championship if Bird wasn't hurt and played up to par.

Ultimately, LeBron didn't really give me reason to feel like his self-inflicted injury really changed the course of anything, or severely affected his play. So it doesn't REALLY drop him much for me. However, if people feel that he could have sustained more of his game 1 level of play this series rather than "merely" being his normal level of great like in games 2 and 3, then I could understand docking him more severely. But he could have just as easily been playing over his head in game 1 and simple variance just happened after that.

[therealbig3]

Although the more I'm reading about it, the more severe this right hand injury appears to be. Maybe it really did affect him a lot, which changes things.

[MartinToVaught]

lebron's injury appears to be self inflicted

does this affect anyone's evaluation of him? I've seen some people dock 85 Bird for his injury/bar fight, same thing apply here?

Doesn't change my opinion at all. The blackboard punch doesn't happen if the NBA doesn't shamelessly rig Game 1 against the Cavs.

[pelifan]

Being good in the finals means nothing. That was a bad EC champ, playing a team with significantly more talent let's move on.

1 James Harden
2 Lebron James
3 Anthony Davis
4 Giannis
5 Rudy Gobert

anything above 5 for KD is a absolute joke. He missed games, almost cost his team the WCF, and the team looked way worse in the regular season without Curry. Judging him based on 3 good games against one of the leagues worst defenses is a hottake. He almost cost his team game 1 of the finals as well.

Lol what? You mean he won it for them, right? Game 1 in Houston was won almost exclusively on the strength of KD's isolations, and with Curry locked down for a big portion of the series KD was the only consistent performer and scorer for GSW.

He shot 35ish percent in games 4, 5, and 6. In games 5, 6, and 7 Curry and Thompson played better than him and showed up when the Warriors needed runs. Durant scored some meaningless points in the 4th quarter of game 7 to save a bad box score after being the primary reason GS was getting killed on the Oboards.

He had a really bad game 4-7 of the WCF, there's really no way around that. GS fans were putting the blame on him and Kerr.

[Dr Spaceman]

Being good in the finals means nothing. That was a bad EC champ, playing a team with significantly more talent let's move on.

1 James Harden
2 Lebron James
3 Anthony Davis
4 Giannis
5 Rudy Gobert

anything above 5 for KD is a absolute joke. He missed games, almost cost his team the WCF, and the team looked way worse in the regular season without Curry. Judging him based on 3 good games against one of the leagues worst defenses is a hottake. He almost cost his team game 1 of the finals as well.

Lol what? You mean he won it for them, right? Game 1 in Houston was won almost exclusively on the strength of KD's isolations, and with Curry locked down for a big portion of the series KD was the only consistent performer and scorer for GSW.

He shot 35ish percent in games 4, 5, and 6. In games 5, 6, and 7 Curry and Thompson played better than him and showed up when the Warriors needed runs. Durant scored some meaningless points in the 4th quarter of game 7 to save a bad box score after being the primary reason GS was getting killed on the Oboards.

He had a really bad game 4-7 of the WCF, there's really no way around that. GS fans were putting the blame on him and Kerr.

In your opinion, which players played well in the Houston series? Because from my perspective the blame is entirely misplaced. Houston had a great defensive gameplan which turned the series into a slugfest and you’re joking if you think the game 1 win (in which Harden put up 40+!) was any less critical than the others. The Warriors needed every hand on deck and I don’t think it makes sense to penalize KD for carrying the load early when the other guys were struggling and then struggling when Curry got going.

I just don’t understand why people still refuse to give Houston any respect. I honestly think they win the title in about 99% of league seasons to date. They just ran into the best team of all time essentially.

[Krodis]

So of all the last minute swerves that could affect this vote, I wasn't expecting the 'LeBron played the last three games with a nearly broken hand because he punched something' twist.

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[Dr Spaceman]

Yeah, was not expecting this news about LeBron.

I’d feel pretty gross honestly holding this against him. He still played and played incredibly well in the last few games. And frankly, we’ve seen the Warriors cause a few mental/emotional breakdowns recently (Harden damn near started a fight in Game 7 and then went straight to the locker room after). I get it. I sympathize with these dudes who devote so much work and energy towards a goal that just evaporates at the very last possible moment. I think something like this would break the strongest of us. Bird was just being young and foolish, but with LeBron I have a hard time penalizing him for essentially caring too much.

That said, this is a pretty unprecedented situation and I want to see what others have to say on the subject.

[pelifan]

Lol what? You mean he won it for them, right? Game 1 in Houston was won almost exclusively on the strength of KD's isolations, and with Curry locked down for a big portion of the series KD was the only consistent performer and scorer for GSW.

He shot 35ish percent in games 4, 5, and 6. In games 5, 6, and 7 Curry and Thompson played better than him and showed up when the Warriors needed runs. Durant scored some meaningless points in the 4th quarter of game 7 to save a bad box score after being the primary reason GS was getting killed on the Oboards.

He had a really bad game 4-7 of the WCF, there's really no way around that. GS fans were putting the blame on him and Kerr.

In your opinion, which players played well in the Houston series? Because from my perspective the blame is entirely misplaced. Houston had a great defensive gameplan which turned the series into a slugfest and you’re joking if you think the game 1 win (in which Harden put up 40+!) was any less critical than the others. The Warriors needed every hand on deck and I don’t think it makes sense to penalize KD for carrying the load early when the other guys were struggling and then struggling when Curry got going.

I just don’t understand why people still refuse to give Houston any respect. I honestly think they win the title in about 99% of league seasons to date. They just ran into the best team of all time essentially.

Houstons a good team but the argument that Durant had a top 3 season centers solely around his playoff run. And in the most important series he fell flat for 4 games in a row in close out games. Where I'm from they call that choking. I give Houston a lot of credit, but if you're shooting 35% and all you're bringing to the game is your scoring and your coach pulls you aside and tells you to pass more you're playing badly.

[Clyde Frazier]

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[euroleague]

James Harden made a new blueprint for offenses. Has to be him

Care to expound?

Harden's new offense is a combination of Kobe and LBJ style, because instead of pass-first inside-out, it's pass-first outside-in. Not just 3 and D players can work in this system, but dominant post players as well. Centers like Capela can dominate inside so other teams can't go small, and Harden can run pick and rolls with them where they have to switch because Harden is so dangerous on the outside. The difference between Harden and Curry here is that Harden can then take the bigger guy off the dribble and draw the foul in the midrange, making it so big guys can't stay in the game against him. This makes his post-player unstoppable, resulting in Capela putting up incredible advanced stats and McGee unplayable. Centers like McGee can guard LBJ because LBJ needs to go to the basket where McGee can defend him in the post, but in the midrange McGee-like centers are helpless.

Once Harden gets the opposing center into foul trouble, CP3 just plays pick and roll with Capela and destroys the other team. The end, and that's where they likely beat GSW if CP3 was playing. Harden doesn't have the physicality to do it all game, he just does it until the other bigs are in foul trouble then CP3 closes it out.

[ardee]

Vote hasn't changed since the last time.

LeBron
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Lillard

[Starboy]

I've been a big critic of KD's awareness and tunnel vision issues. But he has really changed his game around in just a matter of a few games. Very impressive stuff and if he keeps playing like this and avoids falling back to bad habits, I can't see anyone beating the Dubs for years to come.

he really did play very unselfish basketball the last 2 games. It came out of nowhere too. He was awful sharing the ball and playing within the offense in playoffs up until some point of game 2 of the finals.

Not sure what kind of switch did he flip, but I hope it stays there permanently.

[Clyde Frazier]

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Again with the 11 relatively random voters... I really don't get the NBA's line of thinking here not expanding the voter pool.

[Starboy]

Vote hasn't changed since the last time.

LeBron
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Lillard

I just don't understand how you (and others) have players like Lillard over Curry and KD after he embarrassed himself on the biggest stage. It's just absurd. He had single digit PER while playing an inferior team and he's the top 5 POY? Absurd.

[clyde21]

Top 3 for the year:

LeBron James
James Harden
Anthony Davis

HM: Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Giannis Antetokounmpo and Victor Oladipo in any order.

[Styrian]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSzp3G5rwP9xgCgluVGmR3Qj4-BMoGSYiuTKM6o_pzES6s95oQE1nQvB2CXed-4fRc_MMGgpULtDaJ_/pubhtml?gid=730970445&single=true

2018 playoff RAPM(without finals game 4)

[therealbig3]

Vote hasn't changed since the last time.

LeBron
Harden
Davis
Giannis
Lillard

I just don't understand how you (and others) have players like Lillard over Curry and KD after he embarrassed himself on the biggest stage. It's just absurd. He had single digit PER while playing an inferior team and he's the top 5 POY? Absurd.

I'm holding Curry's missed time against him, just like I am with Paul.

With Durant, it's about whether or not you buy into the hype or find him overrated.

With that said, I don't understand the Lillard selection at all either. Feel like if you're not going either Durant or Curry, there are guys like Oladipo or even Westbrook that deserve far stronger consideration than Lillard.

[bondom34]

Stays the same for 4, thinking on 5.

1. Lebron
2. Harden
3. AD
4. Giannis
5. Leaning Dipo, not sure totally.

[Doctor MJ]

lebron's injury appears to be self inflicted

does this affect anyone's evaluation of him? I've seen some people dock 85 Bird for his injury/bar fight, same thing apply here?

Wow. Yeah, it might affect how I come down. It really might.

I empathize because that's the sort of thing I was prone to, but it's just so senseless, and another one of these things where it's not that big of a deal...unless you break a bone or something.

[bondom34]

I'm not really seeing holding it against him. Unless you downgraded for playing poorly in the finals, which he really didn't.