'17-'18 POY discussion

[dhsilv2]

Where can I get some more advanced defensive statistics for this season. I remember seeing a post highlighting the percentages different players shot when in close proximity to LeBron for the 2016 regular season/postseason and Finals and in retrospect, it made a big difference in how I viewed his run that postseason. Would be interested to see what kind of impact Draymond, Embiid, and Anthony Davis had in their respective playoff series before coming up with a final DPOY Top 3. (Will have Gobert #1 regardless.)

Worth giving NBA.com a shot but I don't think you can drill that deep.

[dhsilv2]

I’m with you on a lot of these, but man, Curry over Davis is tough for me.

Curry missed a full 1/3rd of both his team’s regular and post season and was limited when he did play for much of the rest of the PS.

And to be frank, o don’t even think he played well this year. I struggle to remember him putting together a full 48 minutes of good basketball. Even the games he was great in he’d often sleep walk through the first two quarters and then just blitz them with 7 threes in the third quarters. I mean it won his team games but realistically how many guys have a cast who could hold serve against Finals-caliber opponents and wait for him to get his **** together? Certainly not LeBron who was averaging 47 minutes and certainly not Davis who’s team was just wrecked every moment he sat.

I just don’t see it with Curry. I almost grade out his season as a GOAT-level sixth man. His minute load was Ginobili-esque and while his team obviously played by far their best ball with him running the show he just didn’t have it in him to run the show consistently. Ranking Curry this high means you think essentially the 7 good quarters he had outweigh full playoff rounds worth of lesser, but still superstar impact.

So, some raw +/- numbers for comparison:

Curry 616
Durant 526
Thompson 525
Green 479

Harden 597
Paul 561
Davis 302
LeBron 101

Now, the normal caveat applies that raw +/- is not a good way to rank players. I'll also point out that PJ Tucker led the league in +/- this year with 619, and aside from that being the case-in-point of not taking +/- that seriously, I just think that's so cool for Tucker who has had to claw his way to a successful NBA career.

But I've been struck all year by how far above his teammates Curry is in +/- despite his missed time. I don't ignore that he disappointed some in the playoffs, but of course if he hadn't disappointed, he'd have been my #1. He's not my #1, but I'm reluctant to move him too far down my list. The fact remains for me that Curry at his best has the most transformative impact of anyone in the game, he's played that way for a good chunk of the season, and the team for which he serves as foundation and keystone won the title.

I'm a Davis fan and I'm pulling for him to be the best player in the world, but at this point I just don't see what he's doing as in the same tier as Curry and so I have to really ask myself on what basis I'm putting Davis ahead. And while it was thrilling to see the Pelicans catch fire with the loss of Cousins and seeing them sweep a higher seed in the playoffs, I still don't think they're a real contender and I still think it's pretty questionable whether Davis has developed the more mystical arts of alphaing that get talked about in terms of "just knowing how to win".

Last note, I can say a lot of the same things about Paul as I said about Curry, and to me the Davis vs Paul debate is actually tougher for me. But Paul is weaker on several points than Curry and I felt comfortable giving the nod to Davis there.

Hmmm...

Well, going back to my pet example:

2005 raw +/- leaders
Ginobili +844
Duncan +765
Nash +728
Nowitzki +558
Shaq +540
Wade +481
Garnett +141

Parker +570
Horry +415

And please note this is not intended to be a critique of raw +/-. I like the way you use it in cases like these and I get why it’s releveant. But if it’s supposed to be a counter to me saying he played like a 6th man, well it doesn’t really hit the mark unless I’m missing something.

And I understand Davis is flawed and have some issues with him along the same lines as you do, but man, do you really think NOP makes the playoffs with 51 games of Curry instead of 70 of Davis? I understand this is not the be all and end all because the ceiling-raising act Curry does has obvious and dramatic effects. Ginobili’s did as well.

But the truth is Curry isn’t the same guy he was in 2016. He doesn’t have the off the dribble juice. He can’t really get by guys in isolation. And I think these flaws are masked really well by Durant’s presence. Curry was straight up awful in games 2, 4, and 5 against Houston and wasn’t particularly good in game 1. That leaves basically 3 games of good production from your ostensible Star... and really more like 3 combined quarters within those games. How many teams are loaded enough to actually get by with that?

Maybe it’s injury, maybe it’s conditioning, maybe it’s defensive schemes, maybe it’s Maybeline. But Curry really struggled for a lot of this postseason and I don’t think his good games coinciding with big blowouts do enough to make up for that. It still makes him the scariest offensive weapon in the league, but not close to the most versatile which is where he used to be.

Also, love PJ. he’s skyrocketed up to my top tier favorite players this season.

Manu was a starter in 05....just leaving that out there.

[therealbig3]

So for the categories posted in the voting thread, let's discuss the following:

Offensive Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year
Rookie of the Year
Most Improved Player
6th Man of the Year
Coach of the Year
Executive of the Year

OPOY - I've got James and Harden at the top, and then Curry after them due to the missed time. I'm cool with being more lenient about missed time in this instance, because I guess I philosophically see this award as more of a "ok, but who was REALLY the best, all things equal?", with a little adjustment for missed time among the absolute best.

DPOY - Gobert, Green, Davis in that order...Gobert because of his performance throughout the year, albeit with some missed time, Green because of how awesome he was in the playoffs and because I'd still take him over Gobert with both of them at their best, but his underwhelming RS hurts him, and I think Davis has the highest defensive peak in the league, but his mediocre awareness places him behind two guys that don't have as much raw ability...I can be persuaded for Embiid over Davis as well.

ROY - Tatum, Mitchell, Simmons in that order for me...I just see Tatum as the much more polished offensive player than either guy right now, with better defense as well. Not sure how much of that is because of playing for Boston though. Simmons strikes me as more of a generational player than Mitchell, but Simmons's lack of a jumper and clear lack of scoring aggression at times is a major flaw that Mitchell doesn't really have at this point, which is why Mitchell was more impressive in the playoffs imo.

MIP - I could honestly use some help deciding this one beyond Victor Oladipo. Spencer Dinwiddie had a really good year on a really bad team.

6MOY - Again, honestly didn't pay too much attention to the 6th men around the league this year. Kind of crazy how Manu STILL has to be on the ballot, right?

COY - Stevens, MDA, Snyder...not much difficulty for me. HM to Pop.

EOY - Ainge, Morey...who should be 3rd?

[dhsilv2]

So for the categories posted in the voting thread, let's discuss the following:

Offensive Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year
Rookie of the Year
Most Improved Player
6th Man of the Year
Coach of the Year
Executive of the Year

OPOY - I've got James and Harden at the top, and then Curry after them due to the missed time. I'm cool with being more lenient about missed time in this instance, because I guess I philosophically see this award as more of a "ok, but who was REALLY the best, all things equal?", with a little adjustment for missed time among the absolute best.

DPOY - Gobert, Green, Davis in that order...Gobert because of his performance throughout the year, albeit with some missed time, Green because of how awesome he was in the playoffs and because I'd still take him over Gobert with both of them at their best, but his underwhelming RS hurts him, and I think Davis has the highest defensive peak in the league, but his mediocre awareness places him behind two guys that don't have as much raw ability...I can be persuaded for Embiid over Davis as well.

ROY - Tatum, Mitchell, Simmons in that order for me...I just see Tatum as the much more polished offensive player than either guy right now, with better defense as well. Not sure how much of that is because of playing for Boston though. Simmons strikes me as more of a generational player than Mitchell, but Simmons's lack of a jumper and clear lack of scoring aggression at times is a major flaw that Mitchell doesn't really have at this point, which is why Mitchell was more impressive in the playoffs imo.

MIP - I could honestly use some help deciding this one beyond Victor Oladipo. Spencer Dinwiddie had a really good year on a really bad team.

6MOY - Again, honestly didn't pay too much attention to the 6th men around the league this year. Kind of crazy how Manu STILL has to be on the ballot, right?

COY - Stevens, MDA, Snyder...not much difficulty for me. HM to Pop.

EOY - Ainge, Morey...who should be 3rd?

I don't understand why Simmons would not be the ROY on any list. He was the best player on a team that got the 3 seed, and then did it while on a crazy end of year winning streak without Embiid. As much as Tatum and Mitchell were asked to do this year, neither carried the load that Simmons did. Did he really loose that much in people's minds when he played poorly against the best defense in the NBA? Because the guy beat up the heat who many thought might have a chance just because of the inexperience.

That's all before we discuss defense where he was just as good as he was on offense. Sure his game is flawed and he has issues, but as good as the other two rookies were, Simmons was better.

[iggymcfrack]

So for the categories posted in the voting thread, let's discuss the following:

Offensive Player of the Year
Defensive Player of the Year
Rookie of the Year
Most Improved Player
6th Man of the Year
Coach of the Year
Executive of the Year

OPOY - I've got James and Harden at the top, and then Curry after them due to the missed time. I'm cool with being more lenient about missed time in this instance, because I guess I philosophically see this award as more of a "ok, but who was REALLY the best, all things equal?", with a little adjustment for missed time among the absolute best.

DPOY - Gobert, Green, Davis in that order...Gobert because of his performance throughout the year, albeit with some missed time, Green because of how awesome he was in the playoffs and because I'd still take him over Gobert with both of them at their best, but his underwhelming RS hurts him, and I think Davis has the highest defensive peak in the league, but his mediocre awareness places him behind two guys that don't have as much raw ability...I can be persuaded for Embiid over Davis as well.

ROY - Tatum, Mitchell, Simmons in that order for me...I just see Tatum as the much more polished offensive player than either guy right now, with better defense as well. Not sure how much of that is because of playing for Boston though. Simmons strikes me as more of a generational player than Mitchell, but Simmons's lack of a jumper and clear lack of scoring aggression at times is a major flaw that Mitchell doesn't really have at this point, which is why Mitchell was more impressive in the playoffs imo.

MIP - I could honestly use some help deciding this one beyond Victor Oladipo. Spencer Dinwiddie had a really good year on a really bad team.

6MOY - Again, honestly didn't pay too much attention to the 6th men around the league this year. Kind of crazy how Manu STILL has to be on the ballot, right?

COY - Stevens, MDA, Snyder...not much difficulty for me. HM to Pop.

EOY - Ainge, Morey...who should be 3rd?

What are the rules for executive of the year anyway? Does it have to be a general manager? Because even though he was technically only a "consultant", I think Jerry West was more valuable to the Clippers for pushing that Blake Griffin trade through than any GM other than Morey or Ainge was to their respective team.

[Doctor MJ]

Hmmm...

Well, going back to my pet example:

2005 raw +/- leaders
Ginobili +844
Duncan +765
Nash +728
Nowitzki +558
Shaq +540
Wade +481
Garnett +141

Parker +570
Horry +415

And please note this is not intended to be a critique of raw +/-. I like the way you use it in cases like these and I get why it’s releveant. But if it’s supposed to be a counter to me saying he played like a 6th man, well it doesn’t really hit the mark unless I’m missing something.

And I understand Davis is flawed and have some issues with him along the same lines as you do, but man, do you really think NOP makes the playoffs with 51 games of Curry instead of 70 of Davis? I understand this is not the be all and end all because the ceiling-raising act Curry does has obvious and dramatic effects. Ginobili’s did as well.

But the truth is Curry isn’t the same guy he was in 2016. He doesn’t have the off the dribble juice. He can’t really get by guys in isolation. And I think these flaws are masked really well by Durant’s presence. Curry was straight up awful in games 2, 4, and 5 against Houston and wasn’t particularly good in game 1. That leaves basically 3 games of good production from your ostensible Star... and really more like 3 combined quarters within those games. How many teams are loaded enough to actually get by with that?

Maybe it’s injury, maybe it’s conditioning, maybe it’s defensive schemes, maybe it’s Maybeline. But Curry really struggled for a lot of this postseason and I don’t think his good games coinciding with big blowouts do enough to make up for that. It still makes him the scariest offensive weapon in the league, but not close to the most versatile which is where he used to be.

Also, love PJ. he’s skyrocketed up to my top tier favorite players this season.

Curry's just not Ginobili though. When Curry was getting the huge +/- numbers this year there was no mystery to it, we can see it with our eyes. When things are grooving for the Warriors the way they tend to when Curry is out there and playing his best, the Warriors just seem to hit a different level. The fact that they haven't always been able to do in the playoffs is a legit knock and a legit knock on Curry, but it doesn't change the fact that everyone playing the Warriors game plans for fear of Curry in a way they just never did with Ginobili.

[Peregrine01]

Hmmm...

Well, going back to my pet example:

2005 raw +/- leaders
Ginobili +844
Duncan +765
Nash +728
Nowitzki +558
Shaq +540
Wade +481
Garnett +141

Parker +570
Horry +415

And please note this is not intended to be a critique of raw +/-. I like the way you use it in cases like these and I get why it’s releveant. But if it’s supposed to be a counter to me saying he played like a 6th man, well it doesn’t really hit the mark unless I’m missing something.

And I understand Davis is flawed and have some issues with him along the same lines as you do, but man, do you really think NOP makes the playoffs with 51 games of Curry instead of 70 of Davis? I understand this is not the be all and end all because the ceiling-raising act Curry does has obvious and dramatic effects. Ginobili’s did as well.

But the truth is Curry isn’t the same guy he was in 2016. He doesn’t have the off the dribble juice. He can’t really get by guys in isolation. And I think these flaws are masked really well by Durant’s presence. Curry was straight up awful in games 2, 4, and 5 against Houston and wasn’t particularly good in game 1. That leaves basically 3 games of good production from your ostensible Star... and really more like 3 combined quarters within those games. How many teams are loaded enough to actually get by with that?

Maybe it’s injury, maybe it’s conditioning, maybe it’s defensive schemes, maybe it’s Maybeline. But Curry really struggled for a lot of this postseason and I don’t think his good games coinciding with big blowouts do enough to make up for that. It still makes him the scariest offensive weapon in the league, but not close to the most versatile which is where he used to be.

Also, love PJ. he’s skyrocketed up to my top tier favorite players this season.

Curry's just not Ginobili though. When Curry was getting the huge +/- numbers this year there was no mystery to it, we can see it with our eyes. When things are grooving for the Warriors the way they tend to when Curry is out there and playing his best, the Warriors just seem to hit a different level. The fact that they haven't always been able to do in the playoffs is a legit knock and a legit knock on Curry, but it doesn't change the fact that everyone playing the Warriors game plans for fear of Curry in a way they just never did with Ginobili.

I too agree that Curry's impact is unrivalled when he's on - I frankly have never seen one guy who can just bury teams in a matter of minutes like Curry does. And every intelligent defense rightfully prioritizes him first in their schemes. Curry does have cold spell, but even then his impact is quite clear to see - this may not be reflected in pretty box score stats though.

As an aside, it's interesting that Dr Spaceman referenced 2005 Ginobili in making the comparison, as I thought that Ginobili was the clear best player on the Spurs in that postseason (despite TD winning FMVP). IIRC, Ginobili had superstar-level impact stats basically every year in his prime. Coincidentally, he shares a commonality with Steph: the propensity to go on furious runs that energizes his team and puts teams away - albeit to a lesser extent than Curry.

[Clyde Frazier]

hah, curry and durant ended up finishing the playoffs with identical net ratings (+11.1)

[HeartBreakKid]

Itll be interesting to see how much of a push Durant/Curry get from winning a ring. Durant in particular took a lot or criticism (relatively speaking), but getting the Fmvp seems to wipe a lot of that away in peoples eyes.

[HeartBreakKid]

Guess I'll lay out some lobby for the lesser awards, since historically speaking most people kinda just go with general opinion on them where as POY people seem to trust their own analysis and critical thinking.



MIP - Oladipo will get it, for sure - he is the MIP.

But Jrue Holiday needs a major push, the guy played pretty much every game this season and absolutely destroyed Damian Lillard in the playoffs. Holiday is the best lockdown point guard in the league, and is a solid second option on top of that. Last year, people thought he was an absolute bum - his narrative for MIP never picked up this season for what ever reason.

I think Tyreke Evans shouldn't be forgotten either, albeit not sure if he deserves it over someone like a Clint Capella.



6MOY - This award pretty much has no discussion here this season.

I feel like because Fred VanVleet was an official nominee for the actual award he will get a lot of top 3 votes. But what is VanVleets argument over Marcus Smart?

Marcus Smart is a textbook 6th man, he leads and organizes the bench while playing like a starter - and he did it for a team that was better than VanVleets.

Now Marcus Smart did miss a lot of games, but he actually totaled over 1,600 minutes - which is more than what VanVleet has played (not even including playoffs).

This isn't saying that Smart should win the award, but I don't think you can name 3 bench players that are better.

Kyle Korver should get a hard look at as well as he was one of the few consistents for the Cavs. By the way, Tyreke Evans started the majority of games he played this season - though I am sure most people forgot about him anyway at this point.


OPOY - It is shocking to be that Lebron James has never won this award since we started doing it. The guy is arguably the best scorer in the league - like if it is the playoffs he is going to score at a higher volume on 60+TS% than pretty much anyone. Put on top he is one of the best passers in the league, it's shocking to me that people put Curry, CP3 and Harden over him. LBJ is the consistent threat in the playoffs.

DPOY - Gobert will be the favorite, but people should also consider Green since we take into account playoffs here. More times than not Green was better than Durant and Curry these playoffs, that's not a small feat.

COY - MDA should be top 3 on every ballot. Most people doubted his system and that CP3 and Harden couldn't play together - he pretty much designed the perfect way for Houston to work as an offensive unit. Not only were Houston the best offensive team in the league, but they were a top 5 defense this season - which most people did not expect, their defense on GSW was insane. They were literally as good as GSW despite having half the star power. Dwayne Casey by comparison managed a bench well, but he was swept by a team that wasn't more talented than his own...not just lost, but SWEPT - literally getting swept by a team that is worse than yours is pretty much the biggest way to slight a coach.


What MDA did this season was easily more impressive than last year, where he placed on a lot of ballots here, and won the actual NBA COY.

[bondom34]

In that case I'll make a few lobbies as well.

MIP: It's Dipo.

But Steven Adams had a 2.7 point BPM jump, improved his TS to .630 from .589 on increased USG with a lower turnover rate while playing great defense. He was 97th percentile in live ball ORB and 91st percentile in putback points per poss added.

DPOY I've still got Gobert and Embiid but Roberson should get some HM votes at worst. Missed too much time, but HM is fair to me at worst.

COY Is Stevens likely but I'm all aboard for Quin Snyder. They weren't just a good team, they were excellent and not overly talented on paper. They schemed well and played hard with fantastic defense, 3 things I put on a coach.

And agree for OPOY Bron and Lillard should get some attention.

[dreamshake]

DPOY - Gobert will be the favorite, but people should also consider Green since we take into account playoffs here. More times than not Green was better than Durant and Curry these playoffs, that's not a small feat.

I was thinking about this one earlier today. It's an interesting test case in the whole regular season vs. postseason weighting thing. I really felt during the regular season like maybe Draymond just didn't have that extra gear any more on defense, then along come the playoffs and there he is. He really was spectacular. But so was Rudy during the RS. It honestly feels like a toss-up to me - would love to see others thoughts.

Overall, nice post - I'd love to see more commentary in general from people about the other categories.

[HeartBreakKid]

In that case I'll make a few lobbies as well.

MIP: It's Dipo.

But Steven Adams had a 2.7 point BPM jump, improved his TS to .630 from .589 on increased USG with a lower turnover rate while playing great defense. He was 97th percentile in live ball ORB and 91st percentile in putback points per poss added.

DPOY I've still got Gobert and Embiid but Roberson should get some HM votes at worst. Missed too much time, but HM is fair to me at worst.

COY Is Stevens likely but I'm all aboard for Quin Snyder. They weren't just a good team, they were excellent and not overly talented on paper. They schemed well and played hard with fantastic defense, 3 things I put on a coach.


And agree for OPOY Bron and Lillard should get some attention.

I think Adams might deserve a bronze medal in the DPOY candidacy actually. Didn't want to make my post too big.

[GSP]

hah, curry and durant ended up finishing the playoffs with identical net ratings (+11.1)

Are u talking about their ratings on b-ref? Their oncourt ratings are +11.1 but Kds on/off was +8.2 and Stephs was +3.6. They havent included game 4 into those yet either. And the Warriors were +30 with Kd and -7 without him, and +15 with Steph and +8 without him.

[bondom34]

In that case I'll make a few lobbies as well.

MIP: It's Dipo.

But Steven Adams had a 2.7 point BPM jump, improved his TS to .630 from .589 on increased USG with a lower turnover rate while playing great defense. He was 97th percentile in live ball ORB and 91st percentile in putback points per poss added.

DPOY I've still got Gobert and Embiid but Roberson should get some HM votes at worst. Missed too much time, but HM is fair to me at worst.

COY Is Stevens likely but I'm all aboard for Quin Snyder. They weren't just a good team, they were excellent and not overly talented on paper. They schemed well and played hard with fantastic defense, 3 things I put on a coach.


And agree for OPOY Bron and Lillard should get some attention.

I think Adams might deserve a bronze medal in the DPOY candidacy actually. Didn't want to make my post too big.

I have to look more into it, they were such a wreck without Roberson, but Adams was the only great defender they had then and it was just bad lineups he was stuck with. I felt actually bad for him

[GSP]

DPOY - Gobert will be the favorite, but people should also consider Green since we take into account playoffs here. More times than not Green was better than Durant and Curry these playoffs, that's not a small feat.

Was he better than Kd? He was their best player against the Rockets but he even had a couple inconsistent games there defensively. He had some poor games against the Spurs, Pelicans and Cavs too but hes in the Tony Parker situation in where ppl dont talk about his bad games like they do with Steph and Kd. The bulk of his impact coming on defense plays a big role in that where ppl assume hes at a Dpoy level every game

[GSP]

In that case I'll make a few lobbies as well.

MIP: It's Dipo.

But Steven Adams had a 2.7 point BPM jump, improved his TS to .630 from .589 on increased USG with a lower turnover rate while playing great defense. He was 97th percentile in live ball ORB and 91st percentile in putback points per poss added.

DPOY I've still got Gobert and Embiid but Roberson should get some HM votes at worst. Missed too much time, but HM is fair to me at worst.

COY Is Stevens likely but I'm all aboard for Quin Snyder. They weren't just a good team, they were excellent and not overly talented on paper. They schemed well and played hard with fantastic defense, 3 things I put on a coach.


And agree for OPOY Bron and Lillard should get some attention.

I think Adams might deserve a bronze medal in the DPOY candidacy actually. Didn't want to make my post too big.

What case does Adams have over Embiid or even Horford? I dont think Al or Adams should be in Dpoy talks TBH

[Clyde Frazier]

hah, curry and durant ended up finishing the playoffs with identical net ratings (+11.1)

Are u talking about their ratings on b-ref? Their oncourt ratings are +11.1 but Kds on/off was +8.2 and Stephs was +3.6. They havent included game 4 into those yet either. And the Warriors were +30 with Kd and -7 without him, and +15 with Steph and +8 without him.

Yes, but I don’t think playoff on/off is worth looking at given the small sample sizes. Net rating on its own is at least somewhat substantial over an entire playoff run. Durant obviously did play more minutes given Steph missed 6 games. Didn’t realize the last game hadn’t been added yet.

[GSP]

Poy rankings:

Lebron
Davis
Harden
Kd

Steph wouldve been there if he didnt miss so many games. For the last spot im literally torn b/w Oladipo and Giannis. They had extremely similar seasons IMO and played great against the conference finalist taking them to 7 as underdog. Initially i had Giannis at 4 but im still not comfortable enough with his offensive game to put him above offensive greats like Kd or Steph (who is only lower b/c of injuries). He is unstoppable in transition. As unstoppable as anyone but there are real questions about his halfcourt game. Even tho we are a great defense we prioritize on defending 3s and dont do well in the paint compared to other elite defenses. Giannis was a horrible matchup for us but i dont know how he would look against a team like Philly or even Torontos improved D from last year

Giannis is a great defender but is he one of the best defenders in the entire league? Im not sure enough to definitively say that yet. Oladipo IMO has a case over Giannis defensively and if it wasnt for Roberson who missed alot of games Victor is my runaway defensive perimeter player of the year specially after the playoffs with how Roco struggled on defense against us. Offensively he has issues like Giannis too but IMO both players at this point of their careers are getting by on athleticism and physical talents that i dont feel are consistent enough for deep playoff runs

so for those who have Giannis locked in over Dipo whats the reasoning?

[GSP]

OPOY - Lebron. Not a debate to me. This is his offensive peak and IMO arguably Goat offensive peak. Hardens great but give Lebron Dantoni and those pickandroll and iso mismatch opportunities with that ludicrous level of spacing? Forget about it. Playoffs showed the difference

DPOY - Rudy. More consistent throughout than Draymond and was dominant against Okc. Perimeter players can play so much more aggressively due to his rim protection. I dont believe players like Ingles and Mitch would look near as good as they do on that end if he wasnt there. He got Capella'd but losing Rubio hurt their offense and their defense was still great overall that series and Rudy doesnt have a Looney or Bell to fall back on in the rotation when his defense is being taken advantage of by Cp3/Harden pullups. He doesnt have the defensive talent Draymond has around him and if he had Thabo healthy who makes up for Iggy at least i dont think itd be a question with how dominant theyd have looked. Draymonds versatility we saw have cracks this year even in the playoffs where his closeouts and switching werent as effective as they used to be with team offenses adjusting. With Rudys impact on the glass and his amazing rim protection/paint coverage i see it as more consistent defensive presence

ROY - Simmons. Best rookie since Timmy still. Yeah he got exposed against us but put literally any rookie post Timmy against the best defense coached by a Goat level basketball mind like Stevens and i doubt theyd have looked much better. The kids playmaking and vision is special. He can already get to the rim and finish at the level of some Lebron seasons and his defense is already damn good

MIP - Dipo. This is as close to a lock as u can get

6MOY - Eric Gordon. Same type of lock as Dipo IMO. His offensive contributions in Dantonis system went unpraised all year. The offense with him with one of the 2 or even by himself still ran great. And he outperformed Harden and Cp3 in games in the playoffs where he carried them on that end. His play was a huge reason they were up at half and in knockout range against the Warriors without Cp3 in the last 2 games

COY - Brad Stevens

EOY - Id love to vote for Ainge here but its a tossup with Morey IMO. Along with the Cp3 addition getting Tucker and Moute were huge role player moves. Thinking about it i might go Morey TBH with how impressive Houston was all year