OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
- El Poochio
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Goats dont quit basketball to play golf and baseball and smoke cigars
B: L. Doncic | J. Carter | D. Banton
B: D. Melton | A. Burks
B: B. Ingram | K. Oubre | J. Tate
B: Z. Williamson | DJJ | K. Lofton Jr
B: KP | D. Powell
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
- NoStatsGuy
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
alright alright, im going go change my vote here. i have to admit i was a little blinded by the performance lebron delivered up until the finals. even though the 51/8/8 game was insane.
i still think its a legit debate, depending on the perspective you take in that conversation and maybe in a couple years from here. but MJ wouldve put up a better fight, broken hand or not, teammates r not. even against this legendary team. but these late game decisions man, not like this
my vote goes officially where it belongs, to MJ
i still think its a legit debate, depending on the perspective you take in that conversation and maybe in a couple years from here. but MJ wouldve put up a better fight, broken hand or not, teammates r not. even against this legendary team. but these late game decisions man, not like this
my vote goes officially where it belongs, to MJ
im bout dat action boss
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
1999 wrote:N8isScofield wrote:1999 wrote:Jordan had a 5-19 finals performance and the Bulls still won that game. GOATS are not infallible. Bron is not the type of player to chuck to oblivion when things aren’t going his way.
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No but he is the kind of player to disappear in 4th quarters and then invent excuses when things aren't going his way. Up until the 4th quarter of game 3, he could have been swept with minimal embarrassment. But when you let a 180lb Steph Curry's picks give you an out so you don't have to guard KD you're a damn punk. No great player does that. Those are the moments where you have to man up and be willing to fail. Bron didn't want to try. He was more comfortable with the inevitability of KD eviscerating Love and Hood than the possibility of it happening to him and that really tells you everything you need to know about his character on court. Then to basically give up in the 2nd quarter last night and then show up at a press conference with a prop and taking shots at the refs sealed it. No heart, no leadership, no balls. Pitiful.
I hear you but nothing you said refutes what I said. Lebron can’t afford a 5-19 game. If his quitting is nearly putting up a triple double, that man is the GOAT.
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You're comparing a poor shooting night(which is a performance issue) to deliberately shirking your assignment and responsibility as a leader with the game on the line, followed by using a prop to excuse that behavior. There is no comparison between Jordan shooting poorly(on a night where you know he played lockdown defense) and LeBron letting his teammates get destroyed by Durant to the detriment of the team so that the story would not be about him getting destroyed by Durant. And for all this talk about how tired he is, nobody made him play 82 games. He didn't have to play 82 games for them to get in the playoffs. He wanted to play 82 games individually. That was an ego move. Look at me I played all 82 games. Far too much of this was about a personal narrative rather than a team one for LeBron this season. And ultimately all of that is why they didn't win a game.
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
While this is silly because unless you actually saw Jordan play - you really DON'T understand how GREAT he truly was. Imo, MJ would've gotten at least 2 games with this same squad and quite honestly his Bulls beat this GS team 4-2. LBJ is great but Jordan was on a level that can't yet be matched. Kobe was the closest I've seen
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Juco24 wrote:While this is silly because unless you actually saw Jordan play - you really DON'T understand how GREAT he truly was. Imo, MJ would've gotten at least 2 games with this same squad and quite honestly his Bulls beat this GS team 4-2. LBJ is great but Jordan was on a level that can't yet be matched. Kobe was the closest I've seen
With all that space and Steph switching on him every single play, MJ could’ve probably won that series with that Cavs squad. Lebron was mad close to 2 wins. We’ve seen MJ drop 60 on much tougher competition, tougher defense, tougher rules, being doubled, and a lot less space. I could see him averaging 60 in that series easily, especially if Lebron was averaging damn near 40 and not taking full advantage of the Steph mismatch.
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knicksNOTslick wrote:Jonathan starks wrote:GONYK wrote:Quitting is very different than not playing perfect.
Lebron quit. He gave up and just barely went through the motions.
This is obvious to anyone who watched the game.
Again, I watched the game and didn’t get that impression at all. In this day and age, had he just gone through the motions like you said there would be clips of him doing so played all over ESPN, Twitter, Facebook, etc.. And again, nobody puts up a triple double against the best team in the world, in the finals, without trying hard.
Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double for a whole season. And I don't think much of Russ. In this day and age with how the NBA is now, a triple double isn't as impressive as it used to be. When you have the ball in your hands 90% of the time, you better be putting up a triple double.
Lebron's Game 1 performance was Lebron at his finest. Games 2-4... not so much. He wasn't as focused in that last game, you could tell. That's why people said he quit. The Warriors are too good that it can be demoralizing. I'm sure that's how the Raptors felt towards Lebron.
If you’re not impressed by someone who averages a triple double during the course of a season then it’s hard to impress you. Say what you want about Russ, he plays hard. Again, if Lebron almost put up a triple double against the warriors in the finals and he wasn’t focused or quit, then he must be the goat.
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
The best physical athlete the sport has ever seen. Without a doubt. The nba has never seen someone that size, with that strength and quickness, that is that skilled. An unbelievably remarkable physical specimen. But that’s where it ends.
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Never underestimate the strength of knowledge.
Bring back the physical game and send the softies home.
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
kane2021 wrote:The best physical athlete the sport has ever seen. Without a doubt. The nba has never seen someone that size, with that strength and quickness, that is that skilled. An unbelievably remarkable physical specimen. But that’s where it ends.
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Exactly.
RIP mags
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
N8isScofield wrote:1999 wrote:N8isScofield wrote:No but he is the kind of player to disappear in 4th quarters and then invent excuses when things aren't going his way. Up until the 4th quarter of game 3, he could have been swept with minimal embarrassment. But when you let a 180lb Steph Curry's picks give you an out so you don't have to guard KD you're a damn punk. No great player does that. Those are the moments where you have to man up and be willing to fail. Bron didn't want to try. He was more comfortable with the inevitability of KD eviscerating Love and Hood than the possibility of it happening to him and that really tells you everything you need to know about his character on court. Then to basically give up in the 2nd quarter last night and then show up at a press conference with a prop and taking shots at the refs sealed it. No heart, no leadership, no balls. Pitiful.
I hear you but nothing you said refutes what I said. Lebron can’t afford a 5-19 game. If his quitting is nearly putting up a triple double, that man is the GOAT.
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You're comparing a poor shooting night(which is a performance issue) to deliberately shirking your assignment and responsibility as a leader with the game on the line, followed by using a prop to excuse that behavior. There is no comparison between Jordan shooting poorly(on a night where you know he played lockdown defense) and LeBron letting his teammates get destroyed by Durant to the detriment of the team so that the story would not be about him getting destroyed by Durant. And for all this talk about how tired he is, nobody made him play 82 games. He didn't have to play 82 games for them to get in the playoffs. He wanted to play 82 games individually. That was an ego move. Look at me I played all 82 games. Far too much of this was about a personal narrative rather than a team one for LeBron this season. And ultimately all of that is why they didn't win a game.
Again, no one in the entire series fought off screens. Lebron is the only one getting called out for it. Everyone is going to switch off screens, it’s part of strategy now.
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Again, this is all pretty simple. Lebron was by far the best player in the series on either team -- and yet he gets crap for "quitting." That alone speaks to how he is likely the GOAT, that he put up the numbers he did and people consider that "quitting" for him. Jordan never played a team even close to how good the Warriors are -- if he did, it was in the 80s against the Celtics and Pistons when he couldn't even make the Finals. He barely got by the Knicks and Pacers.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
NoStatsGuy wrote:alright alright, im going go change my vote here. i have to admit i was a little blinded by the performance lebron delivered up until the finals. even though the 51/8/8 game was insane.
i still think its a legit debate, depending on the perspective you take in that conversation and maybe in a couple years from here. but MJ wouldve put up a better fight, broken hand or not, teammates r not. even against this legendary team. but these late game decisions man, not like this
my vote goes officially where it belongs, to MJ
he didnt break his hand, a contusion is a bone bruise and that's likely what he suffered...through a self inflicted moment of madness if we're to believe what he said...which in either case is his own doing...
You can't play if you broke your hand esp your dominant hand lol...
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
andrewww wrote:NoStatsGuy wrote:alright alright, im going go change my vote here. i have to admit i was a little blinded by the performance lebron delivered up until the finals. even though the 51/8/8 game was insane.
i still think its a legit debate, depending on the perspective you take in that conversation and maybe in a couple years from here. but MJ wouldve put up a better fight, broken hand or not, teammates r not. even against this legendary team. but these late game decisions man, not like this
my vote goes officially where it belongs, to MJ
he didnt break his hand, a contusion is a bone bruise and that's likely what he suffered...through a self inflicted moment of madness if we're to believe what he said...which in either case is his own doing...
You can't play if you broke your hand esp your dominant hand lol...
i played 2 games with a broken bone in my hand over the span of 2 weeks without seeing a doctor, cuz i didnt even realize it at first. it really depends on which part you break in your hand. but for most of the bones in you hand you probably cant play, that is true
im bout dat action boss
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
El Poochio wrote:Goats dont quit basketball to play golf and baseball and smoke cigars
GOATS don’t quit game 4 of the finals...
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Jonathan starks wrote:N8isScofield wrote:1999 wrote:
I hear you but nothing you said refutes what I said. Lebron can’t afford a 5-19 game. If his quitting is nearly putting up a triple double, that man is the GOAT.
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You're comparing a poor shooting night(which is a performance issue) to deliberately shirking your assignment and responsibility as a leader with the game on the line, followed by using a prop to excuse that behavior. There is no comparison between Jordan shooting poorly(on a night where you know he played lockdown defense) and LeBron letting his teammates get destroyed by Durant to the detriment of the team so that the story would not be about him getting destroyed by Durant. And for all this talk about how tired he is, nobody made him play 82 games. He didn't have to play 82 games for them to get in the playoffs. He wanted to play 82 games individually. That was an ego move. Look at me I played all 82 games. Far too much of this was about a personal narrative rather than a team one for LeBron this season. And ultimately all of that is why they didn't win a game.
Again, no one in the entire series fought off screens. Lebron is the only one getting called out for it. Everyone is going to switch off screens, it’s part of strategy now.
So because other people were switching LeBron had to? And by the way I use the term screens loosely referring to Curry doing it. There was nothing for LeBron to fight over. Are you really naive enough to believe that having your best on ball defender switch NEEDLESSLY off of the other team's best scorer is sound strategy? FOH. Dude did not want to guard Durant in crunch time and was actively looking to switch off of him when the only thing between him and possibly winning game 3 was Steph Curry and some hunger. How are you going to have that username and try to justify a player being a sissy?
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
- El Poochio
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Greenie wrote:El Poochio wrote:Goats dont quit basketball to play golf and baseball and smoke cigars
GOATS don’t quit game 4 of the finals...
Imo they should just add Steph Curry to the poll
B: L. Doncic | J. Carter | D. Banton
B: D. Melton | A. Burks
B: B. Ingram | K. Oubre | J. Tate
B: Z. Williamson | DJJ | K. Lofton Jr
B: KP | D. Powell
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
GOAT's don't take only 13 shots in an elimination game, at home, in the NBA Finals, get blown out, at home, and get swept. Sorry. I don't care what his stats were. His stats were empty. They mean nothing in this regard.
It's also pretty sad that all of a sudden he had a broken hand. Typical LeBron excuse. This guy is a joke. I've lost a lot of respect for him over the years.
It's also pretty sad that all of a sudden he had a broken hand. Typical LeBron excuse. This guy is a joke. I've lost a lot of respect for him over the years.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
N8isScofield wrote:1999 wrote:N8isScofield wrote:No but he is the kind of player to disappear in 4th quarters and then invent excuses when things aren't going his way. Up until the 4th quarter of game 3, he could have been swept with minimal embarrassment. But when you let a 180lb Steph Curry's picks give you an out so you don't have to guard KD you're a damn punk. No great player does that. Those are the moments where you have to man up and be willing to fail. Bron didn't want to try. He was more comfortable with the inevitability of KD eviscerating Love and Hood than the possibility of it happening to him and that really tells you everything you need to know about his character on court. Then to basically give up in the 2nd quarter last night and then show up at a press conference with a prop and taking shots at the refs sealed it. No heart, no leadership, no balls. Pitiful.
I hear you but nothing you said refutes what I said. Lebron can’t afford a 5-19 game. If his quitting is nearly putting up a triple double, that man is the GOAT.
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You're comparing a poor shooting night(which is a performance issue) to deliberately shirking your assignment and responsibility as a leader with the game on the line, followed by using a prop to excuse that behavior. There is no comparison between Jordan shooting poorly(on a night where you know he played lockdown defense) and LeBron letting his teammates get destroyed by Durant to the detriment of the team so that the story would not be about him getting destroyed by Durant. And for all this talk about how tired he is, nobody made him play 82 games. He didn't have to play 82 games for them to get in the playoffs. He wanted to play 82 games individually. That was an ego move. Look at me I played all 82 games. Far too much of this was about a personal narrative rather than a team one for LeBron this season. And ultimately all of that is why they didn't win a game.
Lebron is the master of manipulating narratives in his favour, people are just naive enough to fall for this. I said this even before the decision part I... lmao now we're at the decision part III and people are STILL vilifying Durant for beating Lebron at his own game hahahaha
Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
So you expect him to not manipulate the narrative in his favor when people do it to him all the time? When he made it to the finals in 2007 the narrative was ohhh Lebron got swept, Jordan never would’ve got swept etc etc. Not mentioning the context and how he made the nba finals after only 4 years in the league and beat a team with 3 allstars. Before Lebron left Cleveland the first time the next best player on the team was Mo Williams. Think about that.... Nevertheless it still is on his record as a loss and that’s fine. People will think whatever they want and make up whatever hypothetical scenarios they want to discredit what he’s done. The best team Jordan faced in the finals was arguably the Jazz or maybe Portland. Those teams were not better than the Warriors in 2015,2016,2017, Spurs in 2007, and 2014. That’s not opinion but fact. When Jordan faced legitimately good teams he lost just as Lebron has done. Stop with the myths and tall tales about how MJ would’ve beaten better teams. While mj is a better offensive player Warriors would’ve goaded him into scoring as much as he wanted while shutting everyone else down. Each missed chuck by mj (because he would keep shooting with no conscience) would end up a 3 in Golden States favor. It doesn’t behoove any team playing gs to just chuck away.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
1999 wrote:So you expect him to not manipulate the narrative in his favor when people do it to him all the time? When he made it to the finals in 2007 the narrative was ohhh Lebron got swept, Jordan never would’ve got swept etc etc. Not mentioning the context and how he made the nba finals after only 4 years in the league and beat a team with 3 allstars. Before Lebron left Cleveland the first time the next best player on the team was Mo Williams. Think about that.... Nevertheless it still is on his record as a loss and that’s fine. People will think whatever they want and make up whatever hypothetical scenarios they want to discredit what he’s done. The best team Jordan faced in the finals was arguably the Jazz or maybe Portland. Those teams were not better than the Warriors in 2015,2016,2017, Spurs in 2007, and 2014. That’s not opinion but fact. When Jordan faced legitimately good teams he lost just as Lebron has done. Stop with the myths and tall tales about how MJ would’ve beaten better teams. While mj is a better offensive player Warriors would’ve goaded him into scoring as much as he wanted while shutting everyone else down. Each missed chuck by mj (because he would keep shooting with no conscience) would end up a 3 in Golden States favor. It doesn’t behoove any team playing gs to just chuck away.
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Please don't reduce MJ to being a chucker. At least he would go down shooting in a game where his team was on the verge of elimination (except that never happened in the Finals....). Kobe was more of a chucker but again, he would at least go down shooting.
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
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Re: OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?
Shooting 5-19 in a finals game is chucking though let’s call it what it is. Jordan was elite at all aspects of the game so at the very least he wasn’t a net negative. However my point is people are applying all the intangibles qualities of mj saying he would’ve overcame this juggernaut known as GS. Lebron “quit” but still had an objectively great series. And while KD outplayed Bron the last 2 games from an offensive standpoint, Lebron was the best player in the series. How would MJ have won? I’ve seen people make that argument. That’s what I’m debating against. Nobody can answer me when I ask who is the best player mj had to guard in the finals. Oh yeah, y’all expect Lebron to average a 35 point triple double while stopping KD and somehow making guys like jr play less dumb and make shots. It’s and impossible task. But Jordan could’ve done it... as if guarding Bryon Russel was soooo taxing...
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