OT: MJ or LeBron? Who is the GOAT?

[GONYK]

Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous? What is ridiculous is bringing up the 5-19 performance repeatedly when LeBron has had several games where he is a non-factor because he quit.

I wonder what the stats are on how many injuries Jordan has faked after he's lost?

[1999]

Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous?

Speak for yourself, I’ve seen a lot of posters just regurgitate popular narratives I’ve debunked. It is what it is. Saying Lebron wouldn’t be able to play in the 90s is just ridiculous. That’s one. 2 is that Jordan made his teammates better. MJ passed out of necessity. How exactly does that help? How often did Phil have to tell mj to trust his teammates. But an 18 year old from Akron plays fundamentally sound ball, trusts his teammates from the day he entered the league and he’s somehow inferior. I hope Lebron goes to the spurs so you can see how easy the game would be with a HOF coach running things.



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[1999]

Jordan was good and bad for the game. People would rather you shoot a contested shot instead of passing the ball to an open guy because that’s what MJ would’ve done. Lebron got scrutinized for passing to George Hill when it was the right play. He got scrutinized for passing to a wide open Donyell Marshall years ago. It is what it is.


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[nykfan42]

Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous? What is ridiculous is bringing up the 5-19 performance repeatedly when LeBron has had several games where he is a non-factor because he quit.

I wonder what the stats are on how many injuries Jordan has faked after he's lost?

My guess is ZERO. He just played with the flu and dropped 38 in the Finals 20 years ago. LeBron gets cramps in the Finals and needs Midol.

[1999]

I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous? What is ridiculous is bringing up the 5-19 performance repeatedly when LeBron has had several games where he is a non-factor because he quit.

I wonder what the stats are on how many injuries Jordan has faked after he's lost?

My guess is ZERO. He just played with the flu and dropped 38 in the Finals 20 years ago. LeBron gets cramps in the Finals and needs Midol.

FALSE. You really think he had the flu. God I’m done. Lmao. That’s my point, ridiculous false narrative. You can play with FOOD POISONING you physically cannot run with cramps. It’s IMPOSSIBLE.


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[BeagleBoss]

Born in 82, started watching in 1992. Here is my top 10.

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Hakeem
7. Dirk
8. Malone
9. Kidd
10. Nash

Damn that was hard!

[NYKAL]

And MJ would average 50 a game, taking at least 25 fouls shots a game in this time in the NBA. I'm not a MJ or LeBron fan, I'm a Knicks fan since 1967. Yea I'm that old. Remember back in the day there was no hand ck foul, zone defense etc........

Ok so let me ask you this. Is MJ the greatest of all time in your opinion? Forget about Lebron. What makes MJ better than the guys from your era (Jerry West, Wilt, Big Mac, Ice Man, Kareem)?


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guy have got the entire argument twisted. It was never about the rings or stats. Magic & Bird saved the game and Jordan took it to stratospheric levels. He had guys yelling JORDAN when they went to the basket. Had guys overseas learning English by watching his games. Made endorsements a regular thing, and made the NBA a global phenom that challenges football & baseball for dominance when in the Magic/Bird era, the league couldn't even get air time on TV.

If you used the rings as a judge then you'd better be talking to that guys who's Celtics Jersey is retired.

[Jonathan starks]

Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced pales comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.

[nykfan42]

Jordan 5-19 in a finals game. Kobe 6-24 in a game 7 against Boston. Both of those teams still won regardless of their performance. The narrative is that Kobe and MJ were such great leaders they emboldened/enabled their teammates to make plays down the stretch of those games. It’s almost as if personnel and coaching doesn’t factor into these concocted stories. I’ll listen when somebody says MJ was just a better basketball player; even though I have my own thoughts about the competition I will still listen. I stop listening when the narratives get ridiculous. You can’t MAKE guys make shots, you can’t rebound for them. It’s a total team effort including the coaching staff. Tyron Lue is not Phil Jackson. It’s night and day. MJ won because he was great, but he also didn’t win before Phil Jackson. Great players are great under any system. Role players need structure. Cavs don’t have that.


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I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous?

Speak for yourself, I’ve seen a lot of posters just regurgitate popular narratives I’ve debunked. It is what it is. Saying Lebron wouldn’t be able to play in the 90s is just ridiculous. That’s one. 2 is that Jordan made his teammates better. MJ passed out of necessity. How exactly does that help? How often did Phil have to tell mj to trust his teammates. But an 18 year old from Akron plays fundamentally sound ball, trusts his teammates from the day he entered the league and he’s somehow inferior. I hope Lebron goes to the spurs so you can see how easy the game would be with a HOF coach running things.



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He is the GM/Coach of that team. Lue doesn't do anything, whoever the GM is doesn't do anything. They bend over and do whatever LeBron says. You think he trusts JR Smith? Well that's an easy one because I don't think anyone with a brain would trust that loser.

I wouldn't say he is totally fundamentally sound. His midrange game isn't that great. His jumper is ugly and inconsistent but has improved. Doesn't post up as much as he should with his size. The rest of his game is excellent though.

It would be interesting to see him with a good coach. I'm not gonna disagree with that. Pop is the best coach in the game. I doubt he would do that though. He needs to stay in the Weak Eastern Conference to get his 9th straight Finals appearance and lose again to the Warriors.

[Jonathan starks]

Jordan was good and bad for the game. People would rather you shoot a contested shot instead of passing the ball to an open guy because that’s what MJ would’ve done. Lebron got scrutinized for passing to George Hill when it was the right play. He got scrutinized for passing to a wide open Donyell Marshall years ago. It is what it is.


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Lebron plays the game the right way. Instead of getting praised for that, he gets slack for it

[nykfan42]

I wonder what the stats are on how many injuries Jordan has faked after he's lost?

My guess is ZERO. He just played with the flu and dropped 38 in the Finals 20 years ago. LeBron gets cramps in the Finals and needs Midol.

FALSE. You really think he had the flu. God I’m done. Lmao. That’s my point, ridiculous false narrative. You can play with FOOD POISONING you physically cannot run with cramps. It’s IMPOSSIBLE.


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False narrative? Because you said so? ok.... What are you talking about? Whatever he did have, food poisoning/flu-like symptoms, he was still physically exhausted and dehydrated. Chugging water during every timeout. He looked drained. Probably as exhausting as it is arguing with someone like you. It's getting to the point that you just refuse to believe anything that anyone else says because you simply disagree. You think you're debunking everything but I haven't seen anything debunked. Just you disagreeing.

[omerome]

Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced places in comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.

Jordan faced scrutiny, but he usually rose above his critics time and time again to keep the naysayers quiet. LeBeon has had moments where people have had to pause when they claim he's the best.

LeBron has been from the beginning looked as the "chosen one". I mean the guy has that tatt'ed on his back. He calls himself King James so naturally he will have higher than normal expectations. And to be fair, he has exceeded them. But what could have made him greater was exceeding Jordan's unwavering will to win even when times looked bleak. Jordan didn't quit. He refused to. But we've seen LeBron do so.

And we're living in an instantaneous new cycle where everything is thrown in our faces. It's good that we're always aware of the now. But it also makes us forget about the then. Many don't remember those games where you just knew you were losing when you faced Jordan. I remember the time when Jordan faced the Pacers after game six one year where he slipped and the Bulls lost. Then at the post game he just said, "We will win game 7". And that was that. Many forget the 60 point performances he had in the playoffs and the battles just getting to the Finals.

Jordan has done more in less years than LeBron even after retiring multiple times and still has been flawless in the Finals. That alone is insanely amazing in my opinion.

[1999]

I’ve stated ad nauseum many things that just get glossed over. I didn’t even bring up this latest point. The 90s decade introduced what, 6 new expansion teams? Yet we widely regard the 72-10 bulls as the greatest team of all time and prop up the 90s as the standard in competitive basketball. Bulls obviously benefitted from those expansion years being that MJ could leave, play baseball and his team was 2 games worse the following season. Pete Myers was such a spectacular player... I also mentioned when MJ did return, the bulls lost to the magic. Many attribute this to MJ being rusty. However, when he dropped the double nickel in the Garden he wasn’t rusty then right? So yeah, it is narratives that get thrown around and no I don’t have to believe it. You can believe if you want MJ would’ve won 8 straight rings. We can’t verify that but the reality is it did NOT happen. I’ve stated many facts. Not just opinions like “oh Lebron would cry like a baby” if he played in the 90s. But you guys win I’m done.


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[NYKAL]

Regardless of where you stand on this debate, we can all agree the level of scrutiny Jordan faced pales comparison to the level of scrutiny Lebron faces today.

well, when you act as Coach, GM and Franchise player you are going to be more highly scrutinized. The whole narrative that he had a crap is a non argument because those guys are the ones he wanted. JR & Tristan got paid because of LB (another mans trash). Korver is there because of him. Hood and the others were bought in when he started his bitching and moaning. They gave him what he wanted and 4strait loses were the result.

[NYKAL]

people knew not to talk **** to Jordan or he'd embarrass them. Guys don't hesitate to talk **** to LeNonaggressive.

[NYKAL]

1

[nykfan42]

Voting right now is 75% MJ and 25% LeBron. Sounds like how LeBron performs in the Finals.

[E-Balla]

Jordan was good and bad for the game. People would rather you shoot a contested shot instead of passing the ball to an open guy because that’s what MJ would’ve done. Lebron got scrutinized for passing to George Hill when it was the right play. He got scrutinized for passing to a wide open Donyell Marshall years ago. It is what it is.


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The second George Hill got the ball I knew it was a bad play. He's been trash all playoffs. Knew he'd miss the FT too he looked shook. Lebron doesn't realize you can't trust everyone. If that was Chalmers give that ball up but George Hill? Nah you take that 1 on 1 mismatch with Steph Curry and get your easy 2 points.

How is this thread still alive? The Three Six Mafia really that deep on the Knicks Board?

[spree2kawhi]

I think all the MJ supporters have stated several times in this thread why MJ is better. For some reason you're ignoring it or just haven't read. What exactly is SOOOO ridiculous? What is ridiculous is bringing up the 5-19 performance repeatedly when LeBron has had several games where he is a non-factor because he quit.

I wonder what the stats are on how many injuries Jordan has faked after he's lost?

My guess is ZERO. He just played with the flu and dropped 38 in the Finals 20 years ago. LeBron gets cramps in the Finals and needs Midol.

Roids.

[spree2kawhi]

LeBron doesn't expand his teammates' games or abilities. Not at all, he hinders them, chokes confidence out of them simply by design and, to make it worse, by his passive aggressive yet egocentric piece of **** attitude. He's a cancer, open your eyes.