Who would you take #1?

[TOO]

Luka or JJJ

Bamba is a D grade prospect. Ayton is a C grade one.

If by D you mean defensive and C you mean center, then sure.

[Duke4life831]

I have Bagley pretty comfortably at #1 for me, I have him as the best prospect since AD. But I am willing to admit bias and I 100% see why someone would have Ayton #1. I think Ayton has the highest ceiling in this draft, highest ceiling in any draft since AD. But his motor still leaves a bad taste in my mouth though. I am in no way saying I dont like Ayton as a prospect, Im just that high on Bagley.

[Alatan]

I dont know why people think Bamba will easily add weight. I think he'll always have long skinny legs and a thin waist. You can only add so much weight if you dont have the frame for it.

Even Thon Maker added weight and strength this off season, I think it’s definitely possible for Bamba to do it.

Gobert had a skinner frame than Bamba coming in and he had no problem adding weight.

Gobert isn't even that good of a post defender, and no one really cares. The leaner and quicker you are, the better that is nowadays. How often teams post their bigmen anyway in this day and age? So Jonas Valanciunas or Hassan Whiteside will push you around for 2 possessions, does that even matter, nowadays you have to be quick and defend pick and roll, ideally be able to switch.

Made me laugh. I agree 100%. Bamba will add weight to around 240-250 lbs witch is more than enough to hold your ground for the help D to come. Its also enough to endure physical play while contesting. He is more than long enough to make up for the difference in weight and him being lighter makes him more mobile and less injury prone. If he could add 15 pounds of pure muscle mass and strength he will be a beast.

[Xherdan 23]

I have Doncic #1. It seems he mostly gets criticized for being too good already, with the odd assumption that because he's soo good now he won't get better.

Not an assumption exactly, more like a concern - What do you see Luka able to improve?
I'm worried his athleticism will limit him to an average defender at best.
Do you see him becoming a Steph Curry level shooter?
Is he going to be a ATG distributor?
Will he be able to consistently get to the rim or create separation for a shot?

I'm not saying he won't but these are legitimate concerns. I don't see any way for him to bust, his floor is a good starter IMO but I'm not sure I see a franchise level superstar either. I can see why someone would rather gamble on one of the uber athletic bigs in the hope they develop the skills they're lacking.

[The-Power]

Not an assumption exactly, more like a concern - What do you see Luka able to improve?

He can improve everything, just like any other player. Just because he's good at some things doesn't mean that he cannot significantly improve in all areas – it's a continuum after all.

I'm worried his athleticism will limit him to an average defender at best.
Do you see him becoming a Steph Curry level shooter?
Is he going to be a ATG distributor?
Will he be able to consistently get to the rim or create separation for a shot?

He doesn't have to be the best at some skill in order to be a superstar, although I do believe ATG distributor is in play for him and so is gaining the ability to create separation for his shots.

Anyhow, look at James Harden. He is not an ATG shooter, he is not an ATG athlete, he is not an ATG ballhandler, he is not an ATG finisher, he is a great but not necessarily ATG playmaker – and yet he is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. This is because he is good at everything and because he has found a way to leverage his skills in the most effective and craftiest way possible.

If Doncic can develop continue to develop his jumper, his playmaking, his ball handling, and his body then there's a good chance that he can become one of the best offensive players in the league by virtue of his overall package and understanding of what works most effectively. Not saying it's a given by any means, but I just don't see why it would be less likely than that the other guys overcome their obstacles to greatness – be it skills, awareness, length or physicality.

[Xherdan 23]

Not an assumption exactly, more like a concern - What do you see Luka able to improve?

He can improve everything, just like any other player. Just because he's good at some things doesn't mean that he cannot significantly improve in all areas – it's a continuum after all.

I'm worried his athleticism will limit him to an average defender at best.
Do you see him becoming a Steph Curry level shooter?
Is he going to be a ATG distributor?
Will he be able to consistently get to the rim or create separation for a shot?

He doesn't have to be the best at some skill in order to be a superstar, although I do believe ATG distributor is in play for him and so is gaining the ability to create separation for his shots.

Anyhow, look at James Harden. He is not an ATG shooter, he is not an ATG athlete, he is not an ATG ballhandler, he is not an ATG finisher, he is a great but not necessarily ATG playmaker – and yet he is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. This is because he is good at everything and because he has found a way to leverage his skills in the most effective and craftiest way possible.

If Doncic can develop continue to develop his jumper, his playmaking, his ball handling, and his body then there's a good chance that he can become one of the best offensive players in the league by virtue of his overall package and understanding of what works most effectively.

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Not saying it's a given by any means, but I just don't see why it would be less likely than that the other guys overcome their obstacles to greatness – be it skills, awareness, length or physicality.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I think it's almost a certainty Doncic will be the best player in this class for the duration of his rookie contract but I'm not sure about after. Wouldn't bet against him anyway, kid's great and I'm excited about his career.

[3toheadmelo]

1.ayton
2.bagley

[pelifan]

I have Bagley pretty comfortably at #1 for me, I have him as the best prospect since AD. But I am willing to admit bias and I 100% see why someone would have Ayton #1. I think Ayton has the highest ceiling in this draft, highest ceiling in any draft since AD. But his motor still leaves a bad taste in my mouth though. I am in no way saying I dont like Ayton as a prospect, Im just that high on Bagley.

Out of curiosity what player do you see when you watch Bagley? To me the vast majority of his points were hustle points and ugly runners that he can only take because the guys at his level are too small and slow. Which is fine if you have a coach that isn't letting you show off your whole offensive game like Davis. But concerning when you are given every opportunity to score. I don't think he'll ever have a post up game and while he looks great in transition I haven't seen him blow by anyone off the dribble with elite quickness. Add that to being stuck between two positions and defensive concerns and Bagley becomes a prospect I need a lot of talking in to.

[The-Power]

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Being a top-tier offensive player is rare anyways and each one had a different different path to greatness.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I believe we're evaluating players differently in some respects. Which is fine, but important to note when it comes about our disagreements.

Out of the guys you mentioned, I would not consider George and Oladipo stars. Oladipo might get there but he has had one great season, and Oladipo wasn't even that great of an athlete in college iirc. Westbrook is great because of his unique combination of athleticism and aggressiveness, coupled with sufficient skills, but there is a reason why Westbrook has yet to show that he can maximize the good offensive talent around him – because he lacks some skills, and because he has relied too heavily on his athleticism to figure out other ways to impact the game. And there is a reason why there is only one Westbrook despite the existence of many more athletic guards and wings. Butler has become a star but a lot of that has to do with his mindset and not because he has extraordinary skills or athleticism (Butler is plenty athletic (very underrated first step) and it is a huge part of his game, don't get me wrong, but this is only one part of what makes him great). Giannis is a freak of nature, I don't know if I would compare many players to him coming out of the draft.

The thing is that none of the players you listed are actually top-tier offensive players. They are good offensive players but not as great as the best ones in the league. George has never shown the ability to be a true first option on a good offensive team, Giannis' impact stems from both sides of the floor and offense only he's not that special yet at the team level, Oladipo was so good last year not least because of his great defense (his offense still didn't come close to being among the best players in the league) and Butler is a prime example of two-way impact as well.

If we take a look at great offensive players, we get a bunch of names who do not primarily rely on their athleticim. Curry, Harden and Paul are three of the five best offensive players and all of them – while possessing functional athleticism – are great not primarily because of their athleticism but because of how they can manipulate and exploit defenses by virtue of their skills and understanding of the game. Even James, who obviously is one of the greatest athletes of all time, relies in no small parts on his incredible understanding of the game, his skills and his body control. If we put it this way: four of the five best offensive players today are able to read and manipulate defenses at the highest level, and excel at passing. Three of the four players do not primarily rely on athleticism or, to the extent they do, they rely on functional athleticisim they have perfected and not 'raw' athleticism. And actually I'm not sure who rounds out the top five but he might as well also have those attributes.

Even historically, among the top 15 offensive players you find guys like Nash, Bird, or even Magic who did not rely on raw superior athleticism but on skills and smarts combined with functional athleticism. Luka does have functional athleticism despite not being a great leaper, e.g. size and strength, and he has also great body control for his size and age. I'd argue that history has shown that those players can definitely become top-tier offensive players and, consequently, top-tier players – period. At the same time, I fail to see many instances where great offensive players had serious question marks about their skills when they entered the league.

Bottom line is that I reach a vastly different conclusion than you do, and part of this probably has to do with how we view and evaluate players. That's totally fair, by the way. But to argue that Doncic has a good chance to become an great offensive player certainly has historic precedent (and more so than for Bagley or Ayton, imo). Of course most players ultimately fail to live up to the hype surrounding them, but that's true for primarily athletic and primarily skilled prospects alike.

[Xherdan 23]

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Being a top-tier offensive player is rare anyways and each one had a different different path to greatness.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I believe we're evaluating players differently in some respects. Which is fine, but important to note when it comes about our disagreements.

Out of the guys you mentioned, I would not consider George and Oladipo stars. Oladipo might get there but he has had one great season, and Oladipo wasn't even that great of an athlete in college iirc. Westbrook is great because of his unique combination of athleticism and aggressiveness, coupled with sufficient skills, but there is a reason why Westbrook has yet to show that he can maximize the good offensive talent around him – because he lacks some skills, and because he has relied too heavily on his athleticism to figure out other ways to impact the game. And there is a reason why there is only one Westbrook despite the existence of many more athletic guards and wings. Butler has become a star but a lot of that has to do with his mindset and not because he has extraordinary skills or athleticism (Butler is plenty athletic (very underrated first step) and it is a huge part of his game, don't get me wrong, but this is only one part of what makes him great). Giannis is a freak of nature, I don't know if I would compare many players to him coming out of the draft.

The thing is that none of the players you listed are actually top-tier offensive players. They are good offensive players but not as great as the best ones in the league. George has never shown the ability to be a true first option on a good offensive team, Giannis' impact stems from both sides of the floor and offense only he's not that special yet at the team level, Oladipo was so good last year not least because of his great defense (his offense still didn't come close to being among the best players in the league) and Butler is a prime example of two-way impact as well.

If we take a look at great offensive players, we get a bunch of names who do not primarily rely on their athleticim. Curry, Harden and Paul are three of the five best offensive players and all of them – while possessing functional athleticism – are great not primarily because of their athleticism but because of how they can manipulate and exploit defenses by virtue of their skills and understanding of the game. Even James, who obviously is one of the greatest athletes of all time, relies in no small parts on his incredible understanding of the game, his skills and his body control. If we put it this way: four of the five best offensive players today are able to read and manipulate defenses at the highest level, and excel at passing. Three of the four players do not primarily rely on athleticism or, to the extent they do, they rely on functional athleticisim they have perfected and not 'raw' athleticism. And actually I'm not sure who rounds out the top five but he might as well also have those attributes.

Even historically, among the top 15 offensive players you find guys like Nash, Bird, or even Magic who did not rely on raw superior athleticism but on skills and smarts combined with functional athleticism. Luka does have functional athleticism despite not being a great leaper, e.g. size and strength, and he has also great body control for his size and age. I'd argue that history has shown that those players can definitely become top-tier offensive players and, consequently, top-tier players – period. At the same time, I fail to see many instances where great offensive players had serious question marks about their skills when they entered the league.

Bottom line is that I reach a vastly different conclusion than you do, and part of this probably has to do with how we view and evaluate players. That's totally fair, by the way. But to argue that Doncic has a good chance to become an great offensive player certainly has historic precedent (and more so than for Bagley or Ayton, imo). Of course most players ultimately fail to live up to the hype surrounding them, but that's true for primarily athletic and primarily skilled prospects alike.

You're probably right about the "stars" bit, I just picked some guys who were all-NBA recently.
Maybe because I don't watch NCAA it's easier to just ignore the cons of guys like Ayton, JJJ or maybe I'm just thinking in terms of "championship or bust", or in this case "two-way athletic beast or bust"
It also depends on who has the pick - Doncic would look a lot better in Philly, Boston or Dallas than he would in Phoenix, Sacramento or Atlanta. And yes, I realize it's true for basically every player.

We'll just have to wait and see how it all turns out, I just hope they all stay healthy.

[pelifan]

I dont know why people think Bamba will easily add weight. I think he'll always have long skinny legs and a thin waist. You can only add so much weight if you dont have the frame for it.

Even Thon Maker added weight and strength this off season, I think it’s definitely possible for Bamba to do it.

Gobert had a skinner frame than Bamba coming in and he had no problem adding weight.

Gobert isn't even that good of a post defender, and no one really cares. The leaner and quicker you are, the better that is nowadays. How often teams post their bigmen anyway in this day and age? So Jonas Valanciunas or Hassan Whiteside will push you around for 2 possessions, does that even matter, nowadays you have to be quick and defend pick and roll, ideally be able to switch.

This isn't accurate anyway though Anthony Davis is 240-250lbs and I watched Gobert push him around. You can't be a good defender around the rim if players can go into your body on their way to the rim. Bamba definitely needs to get stronger. If that weren't true Nerlens would be a star defensive player.

[pelifan]

I'm not worried about Doncic from an athletic standpoint. I don't see his athleticism as any different from Roy or Joe Johnson, the 2 players I see Doncic most directly comparable to. I am worried he won't be able to get to the rim though and will be inefficient as an offensive option like Johnson.

[Alatan]

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Being a top-tier offensive player is rare anyways and each one had a different different path to greatness.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I believe we're evaluating players differently in some respects. Which is fine, but important to note when it comes about our disagreements.

Out of the guys you mentioned, I would not consider George and Oladipo stars. Oladipo might get there but he has had one great season, and Oladipo wasn't even that great of an athlete in college iirc. Westbrook is great because of his unique combination of athleticism and aggressiveness, coupled with sufficient skills, but there is a reason why Westbrook has yet to show that he can maximize the good offensive talent around him – because he lacks some skills, and because he has relied too heavily on his athleticism to figure out other ways to impact the game. And there is a reason why there is only one Westbrook despite the existence of many more athletic guards and wings. Butler has become a star but a lot of that has to do with his mindset and not because he has extraordinary skills or athleticism (Butler is plenty athletic (very underrated first step) and it is a huge part of his game, don't get me wrong, but this is only one part of what makes him great). Giannis is a freak of nature, I don't know if I would compare many players to him coming out of the draft.

The thing is that none of the players you listed are actually top-tier offensive players. They are good offensive players but not as great as the best ones in the league. George has never shown the ability to be a true first option on a good offensive team, Giannis' impact stems from both sides of the floor and offense only he's not that special yet at the team level, Oladipo was so good last year not least because of his great defense (his offense still didn't come close to being among the best players in the league) and Butler is a prime example of two-way impact as well.

If we take a look at great offensive players, we get a bunch of names who do not primarily rely on their athleticim. Curry, Harden and Paul are three of the five best offensive players and all of them – while possessing functional athleticism – are great not primarily because of their athleticism but because of how they can manipulate and exploit defenses by virtue of their skills and understanding of the game. Even James, who obviously is one of the greatest athletes of all time, relies in no small parts on his incredible understanding of the game, his skills and his body control. If we put it this way: four of the five best offensive players today are able to read and manipulate defenses at the highest level, and excel at passing. Three of the four players do not primarily rely on athleticism or, to the extent they do, they rely on functional athleticisim they have perfected and not 'raw' athleticism. And actually I'm not sure who rounds out the top five but he might as well also have those attributes.

Even historically, among the top 15 offensive players you find guys like Nash, Bird, or even Magic who did not rely on raw superior athleticism but on skills and smarts combined with functional athleticism. Luka does have functional athleticism despite not being a great leaper, e.g. size and strength, and he has also great body control for his size and age. I'd argue that history has shown that those players can definitely become top-tier offensive players and, consequently, top-tier players – period. At the same time, I fail to see many instances where great offensive players had serious question marks about their skills when they entered the league.

Bottom line is that I reach a vastly different conclusion than you do, and part of this probably has to do with how we view and evaluate players. That's totally fair, by the way. But to argue that Doncic has a good chance to become an great offensive player certainly has historic precedent (and more so than for Bagley or Ayton, imo). Of course most players ultimately fail to live up to the hype surrounding them, but that's true for primarily athletic and primarily skilled prospects alike.

If Doncic comes even close to how good Oladipo or PG are il eat my shorts. This kid is waaaaaaaaay too overhyped. Harden comparisons... The guy cant take centers one on one and he gets Harden comparisons... Doncic is a bigger Dlo Russel, thats who he will be in the NBA. A better version of Dlo.

[CptCrunch]

Luka or JJJ

Bamba is a D grade prospect. Ayton is a C grade one.

If by D you mean defensive and C you mean center, then sure.

Actually crap and dumb. Both are among the most overrated in years.

[donkeylips]

ayton

[juanc]

Not an assumption exactly, more like a concern - What do you see Luka able to improve?

He can improve everything, just like any other player. Just because he's good at some things doesn't mean that he cannot significantly improve in all areas – it's a continuum after all.

I'm worried his athleticism will limit him to an average defender at best.
Do you see him becoming a Steph Curry level shooter?
Is he going to be a ATG distributor?
Will he be able to consistently get to the rim or create separation for a shot?

He doesn't have to be the best at some skill in order to be a superstar, although I do believe ATG distributor is in play for him and so is gaining the ability to create separation for his shots.

Anyhow, look at James Harden. He is not an ATG shooter, he is not an ATG athlete, he is not an ATG ballhandler, he is not an ATG finisher, he is a great but not necessarily ATG playmaker – and yet he is one of the best offensive players in the NBA. This is because he is good at everything and because he has found a way to leverage his skills in the most effective and craftiest way possible.

If Doncic can develop continue to develop his jumper, his playmaking, his ball handling, and his body then there's a good chance that he can become one of the best offensive players in the league by virtue of his overall package and understanding of what works most effectively.

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Not saying it's a given by any means, but I just don't see why it would be less likely than that the other guys overcome their obstacles to greatness – be it skills, awareness, length or physicality.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I think it's almost a certainty Doncic will be the best player in this class for the duration of his rookie contract but I'm not sure about after. Wouldn't bet against him anyway, kid's great and I'm excited about his career.

After watching some games of college Hayward I just don't se how he was a better athlete than Luka is right now. I also think that Luka will show most improvement out of all prospects when it comes to athleticism. He is not in the best shape and he still managed to do what he has done.

Also people seem to forget how many games he has played in the last year. He started to train with the national team in the end of July. He played 10 games before Eurobasket, then 9 games in Eurobasket, then 3 preparation games with real+ spanish supercup. Then 36 euroleague games(30 regular+4playoff+ 2 F4), 3 games copa del rey,and 41 games in ACB(34 regular + 2 vs Tenerife + 3 vs Canaria + 2 vs Baskonia) and he stil has at least 2 games to play.

Se he is playing for 11 straight months and he has played over 100 games in that time and he has won gold with slovenia and Euroleague with Real. He just needs to take his mind off of basketball..

And the guys that were not the best athletes and are stars: Jokič, Dirk , Love, Booker, LaMarcus, both Gasol brothers, Hayward...

[D3ko]

Agreed on all counts, Harden is a guy I considered also. The problem is it's rare.

Being a top-tier offensive player is rare anyways and each one had a different different path to greatness.

Here's where we don't agree, it's less likely because history tells us it is.
When you look at the current league you'll find many players who came in the league without the skills and were drafted for their physical profile and became stars (Giannis, Westbrook, Butler, George, Oladipo) and very few players with limited athleticism becoming stars because of their skills (Curry, Harden - I can't think of any more so please remind me if I missed someone).

I believe we're evaluating players differently in some respects. Which is fine, but important to note when it comes about our disagreements.

Out of the guys you mentioned, I would not consider George and Oladipo stars. Oladipo might get there but he has had one great season, and Oladipo wasn't even that great of an athlete in college iirc. Westbrook is great because of his unique combination of athleticism and aggressiveness, coupled with sufficient skills, but there is a reason why Westbrook has yet to show that he can maximize the good offensive talent around him – because he lacks some skills, and because he has relied too heavily on his athleticism to figure out other ways to impact the game. And there is a reason why there is only one Westbrook despite the existence of many more athletic guards and wings. Butler has become a star but a lot of that has to do with his mindset and not because he has extraordinary skills .

If Doncic comes even close to how good Oladipo or PG are il eat my shorts. This kid is waaaaaaaaay too overhyped. Harden comparisons... The guy cant take centers one on one and he gets Harden comparisons... Doncic is a bigger Dlo Russel, thats who he will be in the NBA. A better version of Dlo.

As someone who has seen Doncic daily for the last 3 seasons, I have to ask you what are the similarities between Dlo and Doncic?


On one hand Luka is a biiig point guard , great in the pick and rolls, hustle and good motor, good awareness , can play and switch PF , is not a liability on defense , and a system player. Streaky shooter and good getting to the rim . Playing at high intensity games for years.

On the other hand Dlo is a scoring first guard, ,great shooter, liability on defense for now, cold, playing loosing teams for the last years but anyway with enough skills to be a top 2 in a draft with a much better prospect than this years going first (Kat)


So I don't know if you are giving him a compliment or just the opposite but with your Vision a 6'8" Hustle Dlo is a heck of a player .

For me Doncic is not a top superstar in coming , he can be an all star level ,he could be a 22/25 point in a taking team, not the MVP as a Harden , but he can Be the perfect complement to any other superstar , he can feed bigs, play off ball with a scoring pg, he can the point Guard with shooters around him , even you would not believe but I can see him being a great defensive player in a good system.

So if you see in Ayton, Bamba, Bagley, a true superstar prospect , pick him. High risk/ HIGH reward


PG13 has been a great player , actually is, so I would be happy if Luka achieve that level, less scoring but much more playmaking.

[Jagic Mohnson]

Luka or Porter jr. The modern NBA championship caliber teams needs or utilizes a guy who can attack the rim off the dribble like Simmons, Bron, Durant, and harden, etc.

[Jkam31]

MPJ has face of the NBA talent. I don't think there's been anyone as physically gifted with his skills since Anthony Davis. He's a bonafide superstar in the making.

How?

He can’t dribble or get to the basket


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[doc quivers]

I have Musa atop my board, and if I were a GM I'd have zero problem drafting him there. He's that good, Gino 2.0 IMO.