Pre Draft Discussion

[JMac1]

The eye test is tangible and all of the advanced analytics are not. Analytics doesn't tell you if he can beat elite one on one defense and that is what concerns people. The Suns take BOTH into account.

No one needs to see advanced numbers to identify that Ayton is a monster.

The eye test on Doncic is so much better than the one on Ayton.

I 100% disagree!!!!!!

I am at my cousins graduation and not only was he a D1 basketball player who played against Ayton .... he has also worked out for GS, SAC, ATL, BKL during pre draft workouts (I obv won’t say his name but he’s a west coast Player) ......

I say who would you take at #1 !???.....
Ayton 100%

He said that Although the Spanish league is good, it’s not like it used to be !!! And his old teammate plays with Luka at real (or used to) and that as an 18 year old he’s got some extremely bad habits (poor diet, partying, kind of an **** at times) ...... says that the NCAA tournament is the same intensity as a regular season game in Spain ..... at #1 you don’t take risks .....

Not to be disrespectful.... but take it for what it’s worth! My cousin knows more **** than most people watching film tape.

Just about 100 percent of every basketball player former or current and coach and pre-analytics expert has said the exact same thing your cousin has said. The analytic guys are the only ones sour on Ayton, because they don't have the ability to see past numbers....its mind boggling. The speed limit says 75, doesn't matter if the traffic is going 100mph or 35 in the snow, they can't think outside of that box, so they drive 75 no matter what, because they don't know what it takes to play at that level and be successful. The intangibles that don't show up in their numbers leaves them lost and they are too stubborn to move, its funny to me.

When I heard what Avery Johnson said, I was 100 percent Ayton. Everyone else, including your cousin, just reinforced it.

[Mjee]

The eye test on Doncic is so much better than the one on Ayton.

I 100% disagree!!!!!!

I am at my cousins graduation and not only was he a D1 basketball player who played against Ayton .... he has also worked out for GS, SAC, ATL, BKL during pre draft workouts (I obv won’t say his name but he’s a west coast Player) ......

I say who would you take at #1 !???.....
Ayton 100%

He said that Although the Spanish league is good, it’s not like it used to be !!! And his old teammate plays with Luka at real (or used to) and that as an 18 year old he’s got some extremely bad habits (poor diet, partying, kind of an **** at times) ...... says that the NCAA tournament is the same intensity as a regular season game in Spain ..... at #1 you don’t take risks .....

Not to be disrespectful.... but take it for what it’s worth! My cousin knows more **** than most people watching film tape.

Just about 100 percent of every basketball player former or current and coach and pre-analytics expert has said the exact same thing your cousin has said. The analytic guys are the only ones sour on Ayton, because they don't have the ability to see past numbers....its mind boggling. The speed limit says 75, doesn't matter if the traffic is going 100mph or 35 in the snow, they can't think outside of that box, so they drive 75 no matter what, because they don't know what it takes to play at that level and be successful. The intangibles that don't show up in their numbers leaves them lost and they are too stubborn to move, its funny to me.

When I heard what Avery Johnson said, I was 100 percent Ayton. Everyone else, including your cousin, just reinforced it.

Totally .... I was just having this convo with him (I’ll say who it is if he gets drafted .... or more than likely put on a summer league squad) but a realgm poster posted a Luka Spanish league poster with 2 other players on it recently and it had his old college teammate on it (previously that player was on the Knicks) ......
Anyway that player said luka was a complete arrogant ass , and that his game won’t translate to superstar status in the nba !!!

Plus my cousin..... who’s won many NCAA accolades , says Ayton was an absolute beast !!!!!
An offensive powerhouse who was played out of position and not to his full potential !!!! Said that every time Ayton touched the ball they double teamed him....... and he still averaged 20 and 11 ........ you don’t pass on that talent !!!!!!!!

And I guatentee McD won’t !!

[WeekapaugGroove]

Tiers 4&5 from the creator of the NBAWOWY site..

https://medium.com/@thecity2/2018-nba-draft-big-board-tiers-4-5-bfb1bcbc8b29

That dude is not high on bamba and has ayton 5th. Not that it really matters but are their any draft sites that have ayton ranked 1st?

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[JMac1]

Tiers 4&5 from the creator of the NBAWOWY site..

https://medium.com/@thecity2/2018-nba-draft-big-board-tiers-4-5-bfb1bcbc8b29

That dude is not high on bamba and has ayton 5th. Not that it really matters but are their any draft sites that have ayton ranked 1st?

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Ive never seen a player so loved by NBA players and coaches but so lowly thought of in the ratings....I mean how is that possible? How can Avery Charles Bilas Fran Lavin Walton and others say he has transcendent talent but becaue he didn’t get a lot of steals or blocks or perceived hot and cold motor have him ranked so low when all the other prospects have just as many or more issues?

I don’t get it. Is it becaue we are getting him? The media hates the Suns, because when we are winning the Pacific that means the Lakers are losing the Pacific, I really don’t understand?

[AtheJ415]

He has skill, it's just that he is a bit weird in that he plays like a big man. He gets a ton of rebounds, blocks, and steals, and crashes the glass. A huge amount of putbacks for a non-big. He is good at setting picks and operates really well from the FT line area and in. Cuts well off the ball. He needs to work on his jumper but it is far from broken. He hit 3s at a good clip on low volume and you can tell he is tweaking it in draft prep.

I think he may end up the best perimeter defender in this draft and is arguably a top 3 athlete of everyone. His upside lies with his jumper and developing offensively off the dribble, which is going to take some work, but that is the same skill set a lot of defensive-oriented athletes coming out had (like Jimmy Butler, for instance). Smith and Jackson guarding on the perimeter would be a big boost to our defense as a team.

Also, I think from a value perspective he ought to go top 12 so if he does fall to 16, I will be upset if we pass on him unless for maybe SGA if he falls.

This is a great breakdown of smith! He's not the safest prospect but if he develops he could be a two way problem and a very unique player.

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That's the kind of prospect I will miss on. Tons of athlete, lacks shooting, ball handling, and playmaking skill - basically basketball skills. It's a Russ scenario. He is growing on me to the point where I would be fine selecting him. I just personally may want a more skilled, lower cieling guy at that point.

Well I wouldn't say he can't shoot or that he doesn't make plays. He is super effective off the ball because he is a terror on the glass and has a high IQ in terms of cutting and setting up the defense. His release is slow, but he hits at a good rate though over low efficiency (I think 40.5% from 3 on 1 3 pt. attempt per game). He needs to speed up the release in the NBA, but he isn't raw. He doesn't lack touch. He does all of the little things defensively and setting picks and boarding. It's just creating off the dribble and speeding up his release that needs refinement. Both need help but honestly speeding up the jumper is very doable and even if he never learns how to create off the dribble he would still be a super elite 3 and D player at that point. If he learns to create a little bit off the dribble he would be an all star.

[bwgood77]

Tiers 4&5 from the creator of the NBAWOWY site..

https://medium.com/@thecity2/2018-nba-draft-big-board-tiers-4-5-bfb1bcbc8b29

That dude is not high on bamba and has ayton 5th. Not that it really matters but are their any draft sites that have ayton ranked 1st?

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Well there are a lot of mocks...so going just by big boards, definitely nbadraft.net has Ayton 1st. Tankathon has him 2nd.

ESPN's big board I can't see because they have been updating and it's under insider....Ayton I think is 1 there...him and Doncic are close.

TheRinger has 3 big boards...from the 3 guys...Ayton is 2nd on 2 and 3rd on one.

Not sure how many places have big boards as opposed to mocks though.

I think Ayton/Doncic/JJJ are usually pretty close on many of them at the top 3 and then Bagley is sometimes in there too. Though the stepien is all really high on Trae so they have him higher too.

I think the top 3 is really close. I think Ayton makes sense for us because our scoring efficiency is so bad, that we really need a go to scorer who has well above avg efficiency, and I think Ayton can do it. Booker is a really good scorer but is just a tad above league avg in TS%, but being at his age, he should make a big jump too.

This will be a very interesting draft to look back on in 5-10 years because some people...especially reading the nba draft forum here, are almost absurdly low on Ayton. I know I have nitpicked him some, but he's never dropped below 2 and I've always said that I almost would feel more comfortable picking at 2 because I wouldn't want to pass on either guy.

I know this is a very strong group at the top though. It's hard to buy him being as low as some have him though.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think it would be interesting to go back 3-4 years and see which of these draft dudes big boards look best in hindsight.

IMO both the former players and the more stat based draft guys miss on their projections a TON. Hell GMs get paid a bunch and miss a lot too.

As far as these guys ranking ayton like 6th and lower I kind of think its hot take/click baity were they throw something wild out there and if it actually happens they can look smart.

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[bwgood77]

Tiers 4&5 from the creator of the NBAWOWY site..

https://medium.com/@thecity2/2018-nba-draft-big-board-tiers-4-5-bfb1bcbc8b29

That dude is not high on bamba and has ayton 5th. Not that it really matters but are their any draft sites that have ayton ranked 1st?

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

Ive never seen a player so loved by NBA players and coaches but so lowly thought of in the ratings....I mean how is that possible? How can Avery Charles Bilas Fran Lavin Walton and others say he has transcendent talent but becaue he didn’t get a lot of steals or blocks or perceived hot and cold motor have him ranked so low when all the other prospects have just as many or more issues?

I don’t get it. Is it becaue we are getting him? The media hates the Suns, because when we are winning the Pacific that means the Lakers are losing the Pacific, I really don’t understand?

I don't think most are THAT low...some are fairly low, but even the Stepien, which may have him the lowest, basically have him in a grouping at the 4th spot with a few guys.

It's a stacked class, but I do think they are being a bit too hard on him. It's not because it's the Suns. It's just the trend of versatile wings, 3 pt shooting, and elite defense from bigs and not many low post guys being the big offensive weapons for their teams and not providing elite defense.

But I don't know how many college players have come along as freshman and scored over 20 ppg with a 65% TS%. I'm not even sure anyone has. Of course not having as big of size advantage in the NBA and playing against far better D could hurt him quite a bit but he may also thrive with more space and 1 on 1 matchups.

The key is the defensive impact. We really need that back line defense....and hopefully a smart team/help defender. So I hope he studies that. It will be hard for our team to improve significantly being one of the worst defensive teams in history if he doesn't provide major impact on that side too.

[bwgood77]

I think it would be interesting to go back 3-4 years and see which of these draft dudes big boards look best in hindsight.

IMO both the former players and the more stat based draft guys miss on their projections a TON. Hell GMs get paid a bunch and miss a lot too.

As far as these guys ranking ayton like 6th and lower I kind of think its hot take/click baity were they throw something wild out there and if it actually happens they can look smart.

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They all miss, but The Ringer and all the Stepien guys are all in two places....that's like 8 or 9 guys. Then that Dean Demakis (deanondraft guy) is interesting and the NBAWOWY guy Evan is interesting...he actually posts on the forum in the draft part. There are some good posters there like The Power and Eminence who have him fairly low or very low and they usually seem like smart enough posters but I just wonder if it's more of a bandwagon type mentality....I see a lot of the guys that are really high on Doncic (even the Suns guys like Kellan Olson) communicating with Cole Zwicker on twitter....so a lot of them kind of just seem to fall in line.

But it's not just Ayton, The Stepien is REALLY low on Bamba...they have him 11th, so it's just just some anti Ayton agenda. In general, I think they have guys clumped pretty close together in the tiers and the best guys there, Zwicker and Derenthal, have Ayton 4th...the others lower.

[DirtyDez]

I think Okobo is the guy I want. I know a lot of Bucks fans are hoping they take him at 17.

My dream scenario would be Miami willing to part with Dragic for #31 and the Suns drafting Okobo.

[taj2133]

The Suns worked out Zhaire Smith on Saturday.

The Suns still hold the No. 16 pick and multiple selections in future drafts. Smith has been gaining some momentum on draft boards, and he's reportedly been invited to attend the draft. The Texas Tech wing averaged 11.3 points per game thanks to making 45.0 percent from deep last season.
http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nba/basketball?ls=roto:nba:gnav

Read on Twitter

[NTB]

Watch on YouTube

[Phnxsports]

[quote="Kerrsed"].....and here are a few others i see people naming....

Holiday
[spoiler][tweet]1008125820370542592[/tweet][/spoiler]

Allen
[spoiler][tweet]1008085340974825472[/tweet][/spoiler]

DiVincenzo
[spoiler][tweet]1008095622145011712[/tweet][/spoiler]

Bruce Brown Jr.
[spoiler][tweet]1008100655368634370[/tweet][/spoiler]

Okogie
[spoiler][tweet]1008105687711473665[/tweet][/spoiler]

Hutchison
[spoiler][tweet]1008109464673800194[/tweet][/spoiler]

Shake
[spoiler][tweet]1008114498295730177[/tweet][/spoiler]

Brunson
[spoiler][tweet]1008130853904400385[/tweet][/spoiler][/quote]

I would throw Jerome Robinson in there. I like him more then most I suppose.

[BobbieL]

I 100% disagree!!!!!!

I am at my cousins graduation and not only was he a D1 basketball player who played against Ayton .... he has also worked out for GS, SAC, ATL, BKL during pre draft workouts (I obv won’t say his name but he’s a west coast Player) ......

I say who would you take at #1 !???.....
Ayton 100%

He said that Although the Spanish league is good, it’s not like it used to be !!! And his old teammate plays with Luka at real (or used to) and that as an 18 year old he’s got some extremely bad habits (poor diet, partying, kind of an **** at times) ...... says that the NCAA tournament is the same intensity as a regular season game in Spain ..... at #1 you don’t take risks .....

Not to be disrespectful.... but take it for what it’s worth! My cousin knows more **** than most people watching film tape.

Just about 100 percent of every basketball player former or current and coach and pre-analytics expert has said the exact same thing your cousin has said. The analytic guys are the only ones sour on Ayton, because they don't have the ability to see past numbers....its mind boggling. The speed limit says 75, doesn't matter if the traffic is going 100mph or 35 in the snow, they can't think outside of that box, so they drive 75 no matter what, because they don't know what it takes to play at that level and be successful. The intangibles that don't show up in their numbers leaves them lost and they are too stubborn to move, its funny to me.

When I heard what Avery Johnson said, I was 100 percent Ayton. Everyone else, including your cousin, just reinforced it.

Totally .... I was just having this convo with him (I’ll say who it is if he gets drafted .... or more than likely put on a summer league squad) but a realgm poster posted a Luka Spanish league poster with 2 other players on it recently and it had his old college teammate on it (previously that player was on the Knicks) ......
Anyway that player said luka was a complete arrogant ass , and that his game won’t translate to superstar status in the nba !!!

Plus my cousin..... who’s won many NCAA accolades , says Ayton was an absolute beast !!!!!
An offensive powerhouse who was played out of position and not to his full potential !!!! Said that every time Ayton touched the ball they double teamed him....... and he still averaged 20 and 11 ........ you don’t pass on that talent !!!!!!!!

And I guatentee McD won’t !!

I think Ayton walks into the NBA and in his first year - granted he will get into foul trouble because the program says "DeAndre Ayton, Arizona - ROOKIE!!" - but I think he is an 18/10 guy his first year. Rebounding transitions well to the NBA everything I have read.

I am fine with people using analytics - its one tool that needs to be used. Not trying to discount - but sometimes you do have to look at on field, on court production and WATCH. Ayton is 20 years old - scratching the surface. A month ago I would have been disappointed the pick was not going to be Doncic. Now for me the pick HAS to be Ayton.

[jredsaz]

This is a great breakdown of smith! He's not the safest prospect but if he develops he could be a two way problem and a very unique player.

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That's the kind of prospect I will miss on. Tons of athlete, lacks shooting, ball handling, and playmaking skill - basically basketball skills. It's a Russ scenario. He is growing on me to the point where I would be fine selecting him. I just personally may want a more skilled, lower cieling guy at that point.

Well I wouldn't say he can't shoot or that he doesn't make plays. He is super effective off the ball because he is a terror on the glass and has a high IQ in terms of cutting and setting up the defense. His release is slow, but he hits at a good rate though over low efficiency (I think 40.5% from 3 on 1 3 pt. attempt per game). He needs to speed up the release in the NBA, but he isn't raw. He doesn't lack touch. He does all of the little things defensively and setting picks and boarding. It's just creating off the dribble and speeding up his release that needs refinement. Both need help but honestly speeding up the jumper is very doable and even if he never learns how to create off the dribble he would still be a super elite 3 and D player at that point. If he learns to create a little bit off the dribble he would be an all star.

You're selling me man!

[taj2133]

That's the kind of prospect I will miss on. Tons of athlete, lacks shooting, ball handling, and playmaking skill - basically basketball skills. It's a Russ scenario. He is growing on me to the point where I would be fine selecting him. I just personally may want a more skilled, lower cieling guy at that point.

Well I wouldn't say he can't shoot or that he doesn't make plays. He is super effective off the ball because he is a terror on the glass and has a high IQ in terms of cutting and setting up the defense. His release is slow, but he hits at a good rate though over low efficiency (I think 40.5% from 3 on 1 3 pt. attempt per game). He needs to speed up the release in the NBA, but he isn't raw. He doesn't lack touch. He does all of the little things defensively and setting picks and boarding. It's just creating off the dribble and speeding up his release that needs refinement. Both need help but honestly speeding up the jumper is very doable and even if he never learns how to create off the dribble he would still be a super elite 3 and D player at that point. If he learns to create a little bit off the dribble he would be an all star.

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You're selling me man!

[SuperSunsFan]

Of course Doncic is a party animal, Come on we are talking about the Real fricking Madrid right here, he probably hangs out and parties with CR7 nightly, u know that certain athlete who is probably 100x more popular and admired than Lebron James around the world. the party scenes among European clubs are unimaginable to people in the States who as far as I know are considered by Europeans farm people living in backwater places.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Watch on YouTube

Thanks for posting hadn't heard of dime drop but digging his breakdowns. Just finished ayton and doncic and going to check out some more players.

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[Fight4]

I 100% disagree!!!!!!

I am at my cousins graduation and not only was he a D1 basketball player who played against Ayton .... he has also worked out for GS, SAC, ATL, BKL during pre draft workouts (I obv won’t say his name but he’s a west coast Player) ......

I say who would you take at #1 !???.....
Ayton 100%

He said that Although the Spanish league is good, it’s not like it used to be !!! And his old teammate plays with Luka at real (or used to) and that as an 18 year old he’s got some extremely bad habits (poor diet, partying, kind of an **** at times) ...... says that the NCAA tournament is the same intensity as a regular season game in Spain ..... at #1 you don’t take risks .....

Not to be disrespectful.... but take it for what it’s worth! My cousin knows more **** than most people watching film tape.

Just about 100 percent of every basketball player former or current and coach and pre-analytics expert has said the exact same thing your cousin has said. The analytic guys are the only ones sour on Ayton, because they don't have the ability to see past numbers....its mind boggling. The speed limit says 75, doesn't matter if the traffic is going 100mph or 35 in the snow, they can't think outside of that box, so they drive 75 no matter what, because they don't know what it takes to play at that level and be successful. The intangibles that don't show up in their numbers leaves them lost and they are too stubborn to move, its funny to me.

When I heard what Avery Johnson said, I was 100 percent Ayton. Everyone else, including your cousin, just reinforced it.

Totally .... I was just having this convo with him (I’ll say who it is if he gets drafted .... or more than likely put on a summer league squad) but a realgm poster posted a Luka Spanish league poster with 2 other players on it recently and it had his old college teammate on it (previously that player was on the Knicks) ......
Anyway that player said luka was a complete arrogant ass , and that his game won’t translate to superstar status in the nba !!!

Plus my cousin..... who’s won many NCAA accolades , says Ayton was an absolute beast !!!!!
An offensive powerhouse who was played out of position and not to his full potential !!!! Said that every time Ayton touched the ball they double teamed him....... and he still averaged 20 and 11 ........ you don’t pass on that talent !!!!!!!!

And I guatentee McD won’t !!

So what you are saying is, that your cousin is Randle. The guy is trash, he is not even in Real Madrid rotation. He gets some garbage time minutes every few games. How the hell can he comment on Spanish legue intensity when he only plays in garbage time. Him commenting on Doncic skill translating is also amuzing, since his own skill aperantly don't even translate into Spanish Legue bench role player. The guy barely played even when Real had half of the squad injured.

He's basically saying that fat party animal Doncic is still good enough to be MVP of the Euroleague. Just imagine what he will become, if he stops with parties and junk food.

But thank you for sharing this info, we now know where Gambo gets his info on Doncic. Prime example of jealousy.

You better hope Real Madrid management don't find out about one of their players leaking information.

[Midnight_Suns]

[quote="Fight4"][quote="Mjeezy2006"][quote="JMac1"]

Just about 100 percent of every basketball player former or current and coach and pre-analytics expert has said the exact same thing your cousin has said. The analytic guys are the only ones sour on Ayton, because they don't have the ability to see past numbers....its mind boggling. The speed limit says 75, doesn't matter if the traffic is going 100mph or 35 in the snow, they can't think outside of that box, so they drive 75 no matter what, because they don't know what it takes to play at that level and be successful. The intangibles that don't show up in their numbers leaves them lost and they are too stubborn to move, its funny to me.

When I heard what Avery Johnson said, I was 100 percent Ayton. Everyone else, including your cousin, just reinforced it.[/quote]

Totally .... I was just having this convo with him (I’ll say who it is if he gets drafted .... or more than likely put on a summer league squad) but a realgm poster posted a Luka Spanish league poster with 2 other players on it recently and it had his old college teammate on it (previously that player was on the Knicks) ......
Anyway that player said luka was a complete arrogant ass , and that his game won’t translate to superstar status in the nba !!!

Plus my cousin..... who’s won many NCAA accolades , says Ayton was an absolute beast !!!!!
An offensive powerhouse who was played out of position and not to his full potential !!!! Said that every time Ayton touched the ball they double teamed him....... and he still averaged 20 and 11 ........ you don’t pass on that talent !!!!!!!!

And I guatentee McD won’t !![/quote]


[b]So what you are saying is, that your cousin is Randle. The guy is trash, he is not even in Real Madrid rotation. He gets some garbage time minutes every few games. How the hell can he comment on Spanish legue intensity when he only plays in garbage time. Him commenting on Doncic skill translating is also amuzing, since his own skill aperantly don't even translate into Spanish Legue bench role player. The guy barely played even when Real had half of the squad injured.

He's basically saying that fat party animal Doncic is still good enough to be MVP of the Euroleague. Just imagine what he will become, if he stops with parties and junk food.

But thank you for sharing this info, we now know where Gambo gets his info on Doncic. Prime example of jealousy.

You better hope Real Madrid management don't find out about one of their players leaking information.[/b][/quote]
Assuming this guy isn't blowing smoke, how about we not be sarcastic dicks and appreciate a perspective we don't often get. Sorry that personal testimonies don't fall in line with your fan boying.