Almost off-season discussion! Trades/Free Agency Ep. 9

[MrMiyagi]

please stop posting Rachel Nichols stuff. she/her trash show is gonna keep hating on the Suns until they get good for a while or another trainwreck team takes their place at the bottom of the NBA. no point getting mad at it and definitely no point in focusing on it

actually with Amin there even if the Suns get good they'll still hate on em

Spoiler:

(half-decent chance that show doesn't exist by the time the Suns finally get good anyway)

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

I love how she mentions Giannis, Gobert, etc. like everyone knew they were going to be great. Like, if this **** is so easy, why doesn't she just say who the best player in this draft is? Because she doesn't know either. No one truly does. Which is fine, but it's a pretty dumb approach.

I mean, Philly drafted Nerlens Noel in 2013, Embiid in 2014, Jahlil Okafor in 2015, Ben Simmons in 2016 Top-5 the Hinkie era. They hit about 50% in the top 5, but didn't have a winning season until this year. Embiid still has question marks health-wise, not to mention 3/4 of these guys didn't even play the year they were drafted.

Phoenix got Len in 2013, were a top 16 team record-wise in 2013-14, tried to make a push in 2014-15 (you know, the way these talking-heads love to promote) and combusted due to egoes. 2015-16 we tanked, drafted Bender Top-5, 2017 we take Josh Jackson and now we're about to draft Ayton. We haven't been nearly as horrid as Philly during this time-span. They're argument assumes every lottery pick is equal, which is clearly not true.

We didn't truly start our "Process" until 2015-16 (3 years), and yet they praise Philly for doing it for twice as long. What a load of bull ****.

[AtheJ415]

please stop posting Rachel Nichols stuff. she/her trash show is gonna keep hating on the Suns until they get good for a while or another trainwreck team takes their place at the bottom of the NBA. no point getting mad at it and definitely no point in focusing on it

actually with Amin there even if the Suns get good they'll still hate on em

Spoiler:

(half-decent chance that show doesn't exist by the time the Suns finally get good anyway)

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

Amin Elhassan is a horrible person who hasn't said anything insightful in his entire career in an NBA front office or as an analyst. The guy is hot garbage, and I have no idea how he still has a job given how much hot water he seems to constantly get in with HR.

[AtheJ415]

please stop posting Rachel Nichols stuff. she/her trash show is gonna keep hating on the Suns until they get good for a while or another trainwreck team takes their place at the bottom of the NBA. no point getting mad at it and definitely no point in focusing on it

actually with Amin there even if the Suns get good they'll still hate on em

Spoiler:

(half-decent chance that show doesn't exist by the time the Suns finally get good anyway)

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

I love how she mentions Giannis, Gobert, etc. like everyone knew they were going to be great. Like, if this **** is so easy, why doesn't she just say who the best player in this draft is? Because she doesn't know either. No one truly does. Which is fine, but it's a pretty dumb approach.

I mean, Philly drafted Nerlens Noel in 2013, Embiid in 2014, Jahlil Okafor in 2015, Ben Simmons in 2016 Top-5 the Hinkie era. They hit about 50% in the top 5, but didn't have a winning season until this year. Embiid still has question marks health-wise, not to mention 3/4 of these guys didn't even play the year they were drafted.

Phoenix got Len in 2013, were a top 16 team record-wise in 2013-14, tried to make a push in 2014-15 (you know, the way these talking-heads love to promote) and combusted due to egoes. 2015-16 we tanked, drafted Bender Top-5, 2017 we take Josh Jackson and now we're about to draft Ayton. We haven't been nearly as horrid as Philly during this time-span. They're argument assumes every lottery pick is equal, which is clearly not true.

We didn't truly start our "Process" until 2015-16 (3 years), and yet they praise Philly for doing it for twice as long. What a load of bull ****.

Yeah, and it's worth noting Len was ESPN's draft expert (Givony's) #1 player in that draft. Also, it is much easier to tank successfully in the top 3 picks, which is a qualm I have with all of those saying how we've tanked for so many years. We kind of did, but nowhere near to the extent needed. This is our first top 3 pick. Philly bombed plenty of drafts but when you are picking that high you will hit. This is our first near guarantee player. And even when we have gotten close at pick 4, it has been in some tough drafts aside from Jackson last year.

Finally, nobody knows what Bender or Chriss will become. They are not horrible picks yet because they were always projects. I would actually argue Chriss is slightly ahead of where he was expected given how unbelievably raw he was coming out. When in shape, he has been below average which is pretty good given his age and experience level.

[MrMiyagi]

please stop posting Rachel Nichols stuff. she/her trash show is gonna keep hating on the Suns until they get good for a while or another trainwreck team takes their place at the bottom of the NBA. no point getting mad at it and definitely no point in focusing on it

actually with Amin there even if the Suns get good they'll still hate on em

Spoiler:

(half-decent chance that show doesn't exist by the time the Suns finally get good anyway)

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

Amin Elhassan is a horrible person who hasn't said anything insightful in his entire career in an NBA front office or as an analyst. The guy is hot garbage, and I have no idea how he still has a job given how much hot water he seems to constantly get in with HR.

I hate that he always brings up his "almost landing" Steph Curry as a member of the Phoenix Suns organization, as if he's ushered in this new era of the NBA, when we wasn't exactly our decision-maker, not to mention we didn't really draft well during the years we was working for us, so what the **** is he supposed to know anyways?

[AtheJ415]

Given the headline on realgm now, I wonder what assets they are discussing. It mentions Ball, but what else since it says assets plural. I imagine we won't be able to get Ingram unless SAS just doesn't want him for some reason. Kuzma? Josh Hart? I know we had some interest in him before. Maybe future picks that can be used as trade fodder given we already have a roster crunch of players?

I still prefer trying to find a way to get up for Trae Young or Doncic if he somehow falls out of the top 3, but I will say from a talent perspective:

Ball
Booker
Jackson
Bender/Chriss
Ayton

with potentially Knight, Zhaire Smith or Dante, Warren, the other of Bender/Chriss, and Chandler/Sauce is a pretty good bench. Still have some role players like Peters, whoever we take at 31 (please Shamet). That is a lot to work with, though since they are young it will be ugly at times. But that is a deep pool of talent, and we'd have a ton of picks to make a godfather offer to try and add a star elsewhere.

[AtheJ415]

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

Amin Elhassan is a horrible person who hasn't said anything insightful in his entire career in an NBA front office or as an analyst. The guy is hot garbage, and I have no idea how he still has a job given how much hot water he seems to constantly get in with HR.

I hate that he always brings up his "almost landing" Steph Curry as a member of the Phoenix Suns organization, as if he's ushered in this new era of the NBA, when we wasn't exactly our decision-maker, not to mention we didn't really draft well during the years we was working for us, so what the **** is he supposed to know anyways?

I have literally seen him on twitter referencing the years he was an ops INTERN at phoenix and taking credit for signings and draft picks during those years. He also claims that it isn't a coincidence that the Suns haven't been good since he left. He is a narcissistic dumbass who doesn't have the ability to be an exec in the league as evidenced by the fact that he has never received another chance in a basketball operations department anywhere else in the league.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think Booker is looking to leave in the short term especially now that he has an exciting #1 pick to play with but I think it's negligent to not consider the power NBA players have these days, even when signed to an NBA contract. Kawhi Leonard is the perfect example, the guy is an MVP level player on one of the best run and most successful franchises in the NBA and he's the go-to guy but something as 'little' as trust is all it took for him to start thinking a certain way and now he's on his way out.

McD has not proven to be a great GM and we have not proven to be a competitive team in almost a decade. There's hope in that the players we have might turn this ship around but that's pretty much all we have to go on right now. Winning cures everything but winning is not a guarantee, especially for a team that's won three more game than the Houston Rockets, in the past 3 seasons combined. Let's remember, the past few seasons has been about trying to win with the youth (aka tanking) and each season was expected to be an incremental improvement of the previous based on internal development of those youth on the roster and talent injection from each draft. This draft is expected to be the biggest injection of talent we've seen in recent Suns history so that could really give us a boost in the W/L column but it's hard to expect a great improvement until they prove they can win as a group.

And if we don't win with this group or at least see considerable improvement over the next season or two, I don't think it's impossible to think that seed of doubt begin to be implanted in Booker's mind.

Kawhi is not the perfect example. Kawhi is about to be UFA, so he has a ton of power. Booker is not. Booker would have to sign the QO to get that type of power, which comes with a ridiculous loss of money to do so. Booker has power over the org in that it obviously wants to have a good relationship with the star player, but he cannot force Phoenix to trade him anytime soon. He is a good 4 years away from that threat being meaningful. Booker has the power of Joe Johnson way back when. As long as ownership learned its lesson and chooses not to relent, we would be fine. We can match any offer and will max him, and while the talent next year will be much improved we aren't making the playoffs even though Book wants to, but I think all of this is moot regardless because he will be quite happy playing with Ayton, Jackson, Warren, Bender, Chriss, and the PG we add, or Zhaire Smith or whoever with 16 if we don't trade the pick. The talent and coaching upgrade will result in more wins and he will be able to look at that and see we are heading in the right direction with a young core that is very good.

I'm saying Booker could be on the full 5 yr max but could still force his way out. Not saying he's going to do it if we don't hit this and that goal but it's negligent to think he couldn't/wouldn't if things aren't going the way he envisioned this team to be, especially if there's already a precedent set for players who are a season or two away from being a UFA or has the supermax sitting in front of them. He can't force us to trade him but if he's not happy and it's made known, the phone is gonna start ringing and we're gonna start considering offerings if we can't turn thing around.

If I'm GM, I'm not gonna be unprepared for if that scenario ever rolls around.

[MrMiyagi]

Simmons can't shoot, either.

Simmons doesn't have to though, he can get to the rim at will.

The problem with Ball is more than his shooting. He doesn't really possess advance level dribble moves and what moves he has is pretty elementary. For a lead guard to not be able to shoot or have an above average ball handling, that just isn't good enough. BUT those skills including his shooting are definitely something that should project to improve and combined with his elite vision, passing abilities, size and defense, he's worth a #16 pick. He's not Ben Simmons level talent though. Simmons has elite athleticism and elite guard skills (minus the shooting) for a guy that's 6'10.

The baggage is a whole 'nother thing to consider though.

This is true, but I would say that if he improves his 3-point shot and is paired with a guy like Booker, it hides those ball-handling deficiencies, which is why I wanted him last year. He does a good job of moving and cutting in a half-court setting, and his passing is still great, but he needs a guys like Booker who can handle things when he isn't leading a fast break. If we could get him on the cheap, I'd definitely think about it, but his family-drama definitely makes me hesitate.

[lilfishi22]

Given the headline on realgm now, I wonder what assets they are discussing. It mentions Ball, but what else since it says assets plural. I imagine we won't be able to get Ingram unless SAS just doesn't want him for some reason. Kuzma? Josh Hart? I know we had some interest in him before. Maybe future picks that can be used as trade fodder given we already have a roster crunch of players?

I still prefer trying to find a way to get up for Trae Young or Doncic if he somehow falls out of the top 3, but I will say from a talent perspective:

Ball
Booker
Jackson
Bender/Chriss
Ayton

with potentially Knight, Zhaire Smith or Dante, Warren, the other of Bender/Chriss, and Chandler/Sauce is a pretty good bench. Still have some role players like Peters, whoever we take at 31 (please Shamet). That is a lot to work with, though since they are young it will be ugly at times. But that is a deep pool of talent, and we'd have a ton of picks to make a godfather offer to try and add a star elsewhere.

I think the talent on the Lakers is just OK. Ingram has potential and Ball is alright. Kuzma is an old rook...what else do they really have? I just don't feel like whatever package they could put together is especially enticing. Unless of course the Spurs think they could do wonders with Ingram. But then the Spurs = Pops right now and once he's done, who knows what kind of team they'll be and if they still got those development chops.

[bwgood77]

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot take.

Amin Elhassan is a horrible person who hasn't said anything insightful in his entire career in an NBA front office or as an analyst. The guy is hot garbage, and I have no idea how he still has a job given how much hot water he seems to constantly get in with HR.

I hate that he always brings up his "almost landing" Steph Curry as a member of the Phoenix Suns organization, as if he's ushered in this new era of the NBA, when we wasn't exactly our decision-maker, not to mention we didn't really draft well during the years we was working for us, so what the **** is he supposed to know anyways?

Elhassan says HE almost landed Curry for the Suns? He's always been an idiot...he's just an idiot with a grudge he can't let go of.

[lilfishi22]

Simmons doesn't have to though, he can get to the rim at will.

The problem with Ball is more than his shooting. He doesn't really possess advance level dribble moves and what moves he has is pretty elementary. For a lead guard to not be able to shoot or have an above average ball handling, that just isn't good enough. BUT those skills including his shooting are definitely something that should project to improve and combined with his elite vision, passing abilities, size and defense, he's worth a #16 pick. He's not Ben Simmons level talent though. Simmons has elite athleticism and elite guard skills (minus the shooting) for a guy that's 6'10.

The baggage is a whole 'nother thing to consider though.

This is true, but I would say that if he improves his 3-point shot and is paired with a guy like Booker, it hides those ball-handling deficiencies, which is why I wanted him last year. He does a good job of moving and cutting in a half-court setting, and his passing is still great, but he needs a guys like Booker who can handle things when he isn't leading a fast break. If we could get him on the cheap, I'd definitely think about it, but his family-drama definitely makes me hesitate.

I've been on and off this DLo/Booker backcourt train for a while but I've also kinda thought Ball was a much better fit even with his non-shooting/ball handling abilities. DLo is a better PG than Booker but he's still a scorer first and he doesn't bring much in the way of defense. Likewise if you try and move up to get Young. I think a Booker/Young back court would get absolutely torched on a nightly level but even mediocre teams and their offense and chemistry would have to be off the charts to be a net positive.

Ball and Booker complement to each other really well. Ball would hide Booker's defensive weaknesses, give him a secondary slasher/shooter (hopefully) and ball handler who can set things up for Booker. On the other hand, Booker would be able to hide Ball's weakness as an initiator and lead guard. We really would need both JJ and Ball to really improve their shooting though but if they can, we're looking at a 6'6+ line up who can pass, shoot, score and defend.

[LukasBMW]

It makes sense for the Suns to leak this report to 1. Ensure Ayton that he still is our man. 2. Let Memphis know that the Lakers may give us an asset for taking a bad contract off their hands. Therefore we now have more leverage with Memphis on talks for #4 + Parsons.

[bwgood77]

This is kind of weird....Bordow in an azcentral article:

Phoenix could get involved by taking Luol Deng’s contract off the Lakers’ hands – he has two years and $36 million left on his deal – in exchange for one of Los Angeles’ young players. Say, for example, point guard Lonzo Ball.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2018/06/16/phoenix-suns-not-deal-no-1-pick-kawhi-leonard/707198002/

I know he didn't say they were interested and only said they could get involved, but now a tweet...

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

*Could* as in under the CBA rules

[bwgood77]

*Could* as in under the CBA rules

Read on Twitter

RealGM's wiretaps are often poorly written, but this one was almost a direct quote, though I guess slight differences "could have interest" vs "could get involved". Either leaves it very open to the fact that they also could not have interest or get involved.

[Revived]

Read on Twitter

Nice to see he was enjoying it and didn't look like he didn't wanna be bothered

Was thinking the same thing. He seemed actually interested in doing it.

By all account he’s a great kid off the court, it’s just on the court that he’s a knucklehead.

[Revived]

And I'll just keep reminding everyone that year after year of tanking, being atrocious in order to garner high draft picks, and not signing solid veterans to help increase the number of wins and improve team competitiveness guarantees Booker asks for a trade in the near-term coming years.

I had a feeling this board, after drafting Ayton #1 this year, was going to turn into a "one more year of tanking to get the top player we need to make a 10 year run" type of mentality.

Eventually Booker will demand a trade and then we can rally around Ayton. And then he will demand a trade and we can rally around Jackson. So on and so forth.

It won’t be that bad.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

[Revived]

please stop posting Rachel Nichols stuff. she/her trash show is gonna keep hating on the Suns until they get good for a while or another trainwreck team takes their place at the bottom of the NBA. no point getting mad at it and definitely no point in focusing on it

actually with Amin there even if the Suns get good they'll still hate on em

Spoiler:

(half-decent chance that show doesn't exist by the time the Suns finally get good anyway)

They are all just talking heads and only have value if you don't mind a super hot show host.

FIFY

[ATTL]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Talking about amin. This is now obligatory.