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Pre Draft Discussion

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Who would you rather take at 16 if one of these guys slipped?

Collin Sexton
22
45%
Miles Bridges
27
55%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1181 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:19 pm

darealjuice wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Read on Twitter


Another solid read, some more interesting excerpts for those who can't see:

Ayton possesses qualities that can’t be taught, and the things he lacks are those that have the highest percentage of improving. But that doesn’t ensure that Ayton will improve in those areas, and they are almost all related to the way he sees the game.

Put another way, his biggest strengths are individual strengths and his biggest weaknesses are team weaknesses. He shows a feel for the game in his footwork and poise and displays a lack of it in his understanding of the other nine people on the court. Watching Ayton, it’s easy to see that he is very good in 1-on-1 isolations with high-level footwork, balance and fluidity. He has a relatively smooth shot that is structurally sound and can improve with repetition. He is also a willing passer. On the other hand, he is a very poor screener and doesn’t have a feel for how to space the floor. The good news is that coaches are used to working with players to develop in these areas; he’ll receive no shortage of tutelage and reps. The bad news is there is always the risk of an unwillingness or a lack of capacity to understand.

Ayton, of course, has uncanny size and physical ability. He is already filled out and physically imposing at 19. He will most likely continue to put on muscle and weight as he ages, which would have been a great sign in 1990, but is a bit more concerning now, when NBA bigs need to be fluid and perimeter-oriented.

That said, Ayton already is a fantastic pick-and-roll defender for his size. He routinely gets down into a stance and uses his quickness to slow ball handlers and then get back to his man, even in situations with multiple screens. He is very good at showing his frame to the ball handler and anticipating the angle of the screen.


Although Ayton averaged fewer than two assists per game, those statistics don’t do justice to his passing ability. At Arizona, he didn’t play with particularly great finishers or spot-up shooters, so his passes weren’t maximized. He rarely hunted points and seemed to be a willing passer in both big-to-big situations and when kicking out to the perimeter. He didn’t always make the right read, but he was always actively looking and aware of where his teammates were.


On defense, he has to show that he can read and react to the other four players on the court...

This relates directly to his rim-protection skills. In college, he showed the ability to help and recover but on a bigger floor with better and quicker offense, he may not be as effective. The NBA’s defensive 3 seconds rule will require him to leave the lane, and teams will force him to come out and defend further away from the basket, given the way NBA bigs can shoot from deep. He will need to anticipate his help responsibilities faster than what we saw in college


Yeah, he ended up talking most about the screens actually which was always one of the things that bothered me most about him

The other big issue with Ayton’s offensive game is his poor screening. To put it bluntly, it has been a long time since I have seen someone miss on so many screens. On almost all of his screens, he runs to a spot, rather than to a defender. He makes little or no contact and shows little intention of screening a player rather than an area. It looks as though he thinks it’s the ball handler’s responsibility to run the defender into him and not the other way around. In addition, Ayton slips out of the screens almost before they happen. Maybe he is bored by the screen and just wants to get to the part where he can receive the ball. Either way, he pops too easily regardless of the situation. Popping isn’t a bad thing when you’re a perimeter threat, but when you are the most imposing physical force in college basketball, you should be screening bodies and rolling hard to the rim.

Now, a lot of Arizona’s offense included false action. In those plays, you can understand why a player might not see the importance of selling the play by setting a hard screen. But even when Ayton screened the ball in a purposeful or late-clock situation, he did a terrible job. That wasn’t due to a lack of ability, but purely to a lack of attention to detail or effort. If Ayton knew how much more open he would get as a result of making contact on screens, he might do it better. We like to think that this sort of issue can be easily corrected through coaching, but there is always the possibility that it could be symptomatic of a larger problem: a lack of integrity.


Then on defense

Teams need to consider how he will grow mentally—whether he will be able to see and understand everything at a higher level when the floor is spread more and the players are longer, faster and stronger. On defense, he has to show that he can read and react to the other four players on the court. In college, the three-point line is closer and the lane isn’t as wide, so the defenders can shrink the floor more easily and offenses struggle to create proper spacing. That can also make defenders look better than they are, because they have less ground to cover. The NBA court allows for fewer mistaken decisions and smaller windows of time to make them.

This relates directly to his rim-protection skills. In college, he showed the ability to help and recover but on a bigger floor with better and quicker offense, he may not be as effective. The NBA’s defensive 3 seconds rule will require him to leave the lane, and teams will force him to come out and defend further away from the basket, given the way NBA bigs can shoot from deep. He will need to anticipate his help responsibilities faster than what we saw in college:
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1182 » by Villalobos » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:28 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Interesting...from asking anonymous NBA Scouts questions....their last question....

10. WHO IS THE MOST OVERHYPED PLAYER IN THE DRAFT?

Three months ago it was Trae, but now it’s probably Zhaire Smith, because he’s arguably a first–round pick and he’s getting mocked 20 picks higher...I don’t know what else he does besides being athletic. I think he could end up being a rotation player...I think there’s a lot of questions with Zhaire but there’s a big variance there, talk about elite bounce and spectacular athleticism, but he’s so new to playing on the wing...


https://www.si.com/nba/2018/06/19/nba-draft-2018-anonymous-scouts-trae-young-luka-doncic-michael-porter?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com


haven't really looked into him much, but isn't he a good defender?
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1183 » by darealjuice » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:28 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Yeah, he ended up talking most about the screens actually which was always one of the things that bothered me most about him

The other big issue with Ayton’s offensive game is his poor screening. To put it bluntly, it has been a long time since I have seen someone miss on so many screens. On almost all of his screens, he runs to a spot, rather than to a defender. He makes little or no contact and shows little intention of screening a player rather than an area. It looks as though he thinks it’s the ball handler’s responsibility to run the defender into him and not the other way around. In addition, Ayton slips out of the screens almost before they happen. Maybe he is bored by the screen and just wants to get to the part where he can receive the ball. Either way, he pops too easily regardless of the situation. Popping isn’t a bad thing when you’re a perimeter threat, but when you are the most imposing physical force in college basketball, you should be screening bodies and rolling hard to the rim.

Now, a lot of Arizona’s offense included false action. In those plays, you can understand why a player might not see the importance of selling the play by setting a hard screen. But even when Ayton screened the ball in a purposeful or late-clock situation, he did a terrible job. That wasn’t due to a lack of ability, but purely to a lack of attention to detail or effort. If Ayton knew how much more open he would get as a result of making contact on screens, he might do it better. We like to think that this sort of issue can be easily corrected through coaching, but there is always the possibility that it could be symptomatic of a larger problem: a lack of integrity.


Then on defense

Teams need to consider how he will grow mentally—whether he will be able to see and understand everything at a higher level when the floor is spread more and the players are longer, faster and stronger. On defense, he has to show that he can read and react to the other four players on the court. In college, the three-point line is closer and the lane isn’t as wide, so the defenders can shrink the floor more easily and offenses struggle to create proper spacing. That can also make defenders look better than they are, because they have less ground to cover. The NBA court allows for fewer mistaken decisions and smaller windows of time to make them.

This relates directly to his rim-protection skills. In college, he showed the ability to help and recover but on a bigger floor with better and quicker offense, he may not be as effective. The NBA’s defensive 3 seconds rule will require him to leave the lane, and teams will force him to come out and defend further away from the basket, given the way NBA bigs can shoot from deep. He will need to anticipate his help responsibilities faster than what we saw in college:


His screen setting was definitely bad at Arizona, but I can't imagine that finding and screening a body instead of screening space wouldn't be drilled into his head in the NBA. I would consider screen setting as something that should be relatively easily fixable.

I posted most of the defense quote, just left out the portion that talked about differences between college and NBA because they're pretty well known. I will say it was encouraging that they see him as a good individual perimeter defender and pick and roll defender already though, considering that's one of the big things that forces big men off the court these days. There's no doubt he has room to grow as a help defender and shot blocker though.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1184 » by LukasBMW » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:45 pm

Calvin Klein wrote:Anybody else worried about those comments Ayton made about not enjoying his time in the US and feeling like a job?

I am afraid this is just the beginning of a very bumpy ride with this pick


I think Ayton has Shaq's personality. He's a competitor but also a bit of a clown. He'll take care of business on the court, but he's going to enjoy the attention and opportunity off the court.

The thing is, guys like Ayton and Lebron, and Shaq, and Ben Simmons are so talented that they can get away with "half assing" it at times.

I bring up Simmons because people questioned his desire and attitude when he went #1, and so far he has turned out to be a fantastic pick.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1185 » by Fo-Real » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:52 pm

Calvin Klein wrote:Anybody else worried about those comments Ayton made about not enjoying his time in the US and feeling like a job?

I am afraid this is just the beginning of a very bumpy ride with this pick


No not at all.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1186 » by TheLogician » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:57 pm

Calvin Klein wrote:Anybody else worried about those comments Ayton made about not enjoying his time in the US and feeling like a job?

I am afraid this is just the beginning of a very bumpy ride with this pick


It was basically a long job interview for him, between constant camps, AAU, HS, and college. He was pissed about people trying to use him for shoe money in the AAU circuit. There's audio of him swearing about AAU and his bad experiences. He obviously likes living in Arizona and has said so many times.

You're not the one making the decision, so save your worrying and wait to see how it works out like the rest of us. There's no need to stoke fear over trivial ****.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1187 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Villalobos wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Interesting...from asking anonymous NBA Scouts questions....their last question....

10. WHO IS THE MOST OVERHYPED PLAYER IN THE DRAFT?

Three months ago it was Trae, but now it’s probably Zhaire Smith, because he’s arguably a first–round pick and he’s getting mocked 20 picks higher...I don’t know what else he does besides being athletic. I think he could end up being a rotation player...I think there’s a lot of questions with Zhaire but there’s a big variance there, talk about elite bounce and spectacular athleticism, but he’s so new to playing on the wing...


https://www.si.com/nba/2018/06/19/nba-draft-2018-anonymous-scouts-trae-young-luka-doncic-michael-porter?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com


haven't really looked into him much, but isn't he a good defender?


I really like Smith but there is a lot of projection with him because he's a unique player that Texas Tech played almost like a big man. He seems to have a good feel for the game though so I think that will help his unreal athleticism translate. I see him as a defensive menace and a guy who does a lot of little things on both sides of the ball and a guy who can contribute without a high usage rate. But he's a gamble for sure.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1188 » by NapoleonII » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:01 pm

DarkHawk wrote:
TheXgasm wrote:LOL @ saying Jay-Z is the GOAT and it's not even close.

He's not, and even if he were the debate would be massive.


Growing up in the 90's I will always see guys like 2pac and BIG ahead of him. Arguments can be made, and that's fine, but saying 'it's not even close', to me, means not enough homework was done on his competition.


Jay-Z is much more similar to Lebron IMO.

He's got legitimate series and moments of GOAT play mixed with overall longevity.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1189 » by jcsunsfan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:02 pm

Read on Twitter
[/quote]

Really? A 19 year old basketball player has to develop a little more? I am shocked.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1190 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:05 pm

Villalobos wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Interesting...from asking anonymous NBA Scouts questions....their last question....

10. WHO IS THE MOST OVERHYPED PLAYER IN THE DRAFT?

Three months ago it was Trae, but now it’s probably Zhaire Smith, because he’s arguably a first–round pick and he’s getting mocked 20 picks higher...I don’t know what else he does besides being athletic. I think he could end up being a rotation player...I think there’s a lot of questions with Zhaire but there’s a big variance there, talk about elite bounce and spectacular athleticism, but he’s so new to playing on the wing...


https://www.si.com/nba/2018/06/19/nba-draft-2018-anonymous-scouts-trae-young-luka-doncic-michael-porter?utm_campaign=thecrossover&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com


haven't really looked into him much, but isn't he a good defender?

He has the tools to be a good defender but not there yet.

He’s basically Gerald Green without a jump shot.

He could become a great player in 3-4 years but he’s a super raw prospect. I don’t think the Suns should take him considering the Suns are looking to win within the next 2 years and they have more than enough projects on the team.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1191 » by Moochthemonkey » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:10 pm

gaspar wrote:The Spurs drafted one above average player in the last 15 years.


three if you count the two that were traded to Phoenix on draft day

2003- Leandro Barbosa
2008- George Hill (played poorly this season, but he did have a few good years)
2008- Goran Dragic

goes to show that you don't need to pull a full-blown Hinkie (although that's the safer route) if you just pick the right guy (David Robinson, and then Tim Duncan around a decade later). And for all that the late 1sts and 2nds that were average or below average (as one could expect) Ginobili and T Parker were steals, and came with NBA longevity at that.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1192 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:19 pm

NapoleonII wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:
TheXgasm wrote:LOL @ saying Jay-Z is the GOAT and it's not even close.

He's not, and even if he were the debate would be massive.


Growing up in the 90's I will always see guys like 2pac and BIG ahead of him. Arguments can be made, and that's fine, but saying 'it's not even close', to me, means not enough homework was done on his competition.


Jay-Z is much more similar to Lebron IMO.

He's got legitimate series and moments of GOAT play mixed with overall longevity.

Jay-Z is not an all time great rapper. Nobody will know or care about any of his songs 10-15 years from now. He’s a great celebrity and has a smoking hot wife, that’s it.

Eminem is greater than Jay-Z and it’s not close.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1193 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:21 pm

Two more days...
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1194 » by Moochthemonkey » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:21 pm

NapoleonII wrote:
DarkHawk wrote:
TheXgasm wrote:LOL @ saying Jay-Z is the GOAT and it's not even close.

He's not, and even if he were the debate would be massive.


Growing up in the 90's I will always see guys like 2pac and BIG ahead of him. Arguments can be made, and that's fine, but saying 'it's not even close', to me, means not enough homework was done on his competition.


Jay-Z is much more similar to Lebron IMO.

He's got legitimate series and moments of GOAT play mixed with overall longevity.


IMO, Jay-Z is more like Melo. Solid and lots of well deserved accomplishments, but can be overhyped.

but it's hard to compare musicians and athletes. One is more subjective than the other. An athlete might be around their prime for a decade, yet music skill really isn't subject to biological decay and they can continue to improve until the day the die. If you're approaching superhuman ability like Lebron, you will get the recognition and notice, while the more artistic musicians and underground rappers are overshadowed by the Jay'Z's and Drakes.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1195 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:21 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Spoiler:
DarkHawk wrote:
Revived wrote:Interesting that most non Suns fans who participated in a poll of "Who would you take #1 overall in the draft" actually would take Doncic (55%) over Ayton (22%).

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1714357

Prior to the lottery, I had browsed few of top lotto teams' forums like Grizz/Kings/Mavs etc and it certainly felt like most of their fans actually wanted Doncic if their teams had won the lottery as well.

It worked out extremely well for Ayton that his hometown team got the #1 overall pick with him having huge local fan support in Phoenix. Just a guess but I think there's strong chance that he loses out on #1 overall money and goes #2 or later had another team won the lottery.


I'm not sure I agree with this. I believe he would be a consensus #1 for more teams than not. He's just too talented and has too much potential. Especially since Doncic appears to be falling so other teams can take big men.
If we had the #2 pick, I would expect us to take Doncic, even if other teams wouldn't. But teams like the Kings, who you hear may take Bagley with their pick, would most def take Ayton.


The draft board also has more international fans, particularly from Slovenia, and more analytics people. There is a poll on the GB as well that Ayton leads.

The recent poll on the GB asking who the best player in the draft is has Doncic #1 by far. Doncic has nearly double the amount of votes that Ayton has. And I think the GB is mostly American fans yet an overwhelming majority still prefer the European prospect which is somewhat surprising.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1715901

I was on the Kings official forum and someone asked what to do if the Suns actually take Doncic and a lot of them actually preferred Bagley over Ayton.

It does make you wonder, how would Ayton be perceived in the top of the lottery if he went to a school away from Arizona or if the only NBA team from Arizona hadn’t won the lottery.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1196 » by Moochthemonkey » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:26 pm

Revived wrote:
Read on Twitter


If the Wiz offer to move down from #15 to #31 with the Suns to dump an expiring contract like say, Kieff's $8.5M, I wonder if the Suns would consider it emotions aside...


>trade Gortat to the Wizards for the #18 pick
>trade Keef to the Wizards for the #13 pick
>get Keef and Gortat back from the Wizards with #15 pick

top kek
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1197 » by Revived » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:30 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:OK. So. What is your ideal draft? Include your projected trade up or whatever.

For me, if we could walk away with Ayton/Doncic or Ayton/Young, I would be absolutely thrilled.

#16, #31, take a bad contract, and additional future picks if necessary to get it done. I am good with that.

What if we walked away with Doncic/JJJ or Doncic/Bamba....how would you feel? And be honest.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1198 » by Walt_Uoob » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:32 pm

darealjuice wrote: I will say it was encouraging that they see him as a good individual perimeter defender and pick and roll defender already though, considering that's one of the big things that forces big men off the court these days. There's no doubt he has room to grow as a help defender and shot blocker though.


This is the biggest thing that has helped me come around on Ayton (though I'm still Team Doncic). He's not an instinctive rim protector or post defender but he seems really good on the perimeter and P&R, so teams shouldn't be able to play him off the court by putting in a Draymond Green type at Center. Ayton would be a serious handful for Green to try to defend, while being able to defend against Green just fine. If he stays nimble and works on those other fundamentals, he could be a unique player who actually fits today's game quite well.
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Re: The #16 and #31 Discussion Thread 

Post#1199 » by Blonde » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:42 pm

Zhaire Smith = short Derrick Jones. He’s not going to see the floor if we are trying to win.
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Re: The Draft Thread 3: #1 Pick Discussion 

Post#1200 » by Calvin Klein » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:48 pm

TheLogician wrote:
You're not the one making the decision, so save your worrying and wait to see how it works out like the rest of us. There's no need to stoke fear over trivial ****.


Relax, I was just asking :lol:

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