Political Roundtable Part XXI

[I_Like_Dirt]

Hey Dirt/Zonk, have you had the chance to read "Why? Explaining the Holocaust" by Peter Hayes. It is the best book I have read on the subject. For those that don't believe their was a Holocaust - its not worth the read.

I don't think I've read that one specifically, no. I may wind up checking it out if I have the chance.

[dckingsfan]

the number one reason that people are exiting California is housing prices. And those housing price increases aren't due to "massive" immigration. They are due to local communities stopping housing development.

Yup. Exactly this. And local communities stopping housing development is because rich people don't want the value of their homes to go down.

Sometimes. It depends on the area.

In the case of costal communities, it is the environmental impact assessments and blocks that make it difficult to develop (as well as the last point). Part of this was enabled by the environment movement - they found that through lawsuits they could stop development due to the litigation costs.

In some areas it is water and water rights. One of the criticisms of Brown (rightly or wrongly) is that he wanted to put money into highspeed rail and not into water desalination plants and dams.

In some areas they just don't want their communities to change. And yes, in some areas they don't anything to impact the cost of housing (I have mine - too bad you).

Its complicated and the California Ds seem to be stumped on how to move forward on this one. And then the is the money - prop 13 complicated many things.

[dckingsfan]

Hey Dirt/Zonk, have you had the chance to read "Why? Explaining the Holocaust" by Peter Hayes. It is the best book I have read on the subject. For those that don't believe their was a Holocaust - its not worth the read.

I don't think I've read that one specifically, no. I may wind up checking it out if I have the chance.

If you do - ping me on a private message - love to get your thoughts on the book.

[nate33]

Just one clarification - the number one reason that people are exiting California is housing prices. And those housing price increases aren't due to "massive" immigration. They are due to local communities stopping housing development.

But they are stopping housing development because they don't want a bunch of poor immigrants moving in next door and bringing down their school system.

And the second reason is tax increases - those increases in taxes are due to the unfunded pension liabilities and the prison industrial complex.

The prison industrial complex thanks to gang warfare mostly controlled by immigrants, legal and illegal.

And again - it is the Republican base in California that doesn't want to stop the flow of immigrants. Why? Because that base is largely in the central valley - they are farmers.

What Republican base in California? In the State House, Democrats outnumber Republicans 53-25.

So, the reason this administration can't get their law(s) passed on immigration - is also because the Republicans.

I will cede that not all Republicans are strong on immigration. That's changing though.

[stilldropin20]

Assuming that they came across by themselves. This if fine.

If they came across with their parent - they should stay with that parent through the entire detainment process. They should never be separated.

But how do we avoid separating them if the kids have to be let go in 20 days? Are you suggesting that we let the parents go too? Just let them into the country on their own recognizance, hoping that they come back for their asylum hearing? You do realize that that is de facto open borders. You do realize that this loophole has been exploited more and more every year.

Trump has been asking for more funding for more immigration judges to expedite the asylum process but Democrats have blocked it. Trump has asked for more funding for a wall to prevent people from sneaking across the border, but Democrats have stopped it. Trump has just issued an executive order to extend that 20 day limit on detaining kids so that they can remain with their parents, and the Democrats will attempt to stop it. Don't you see? The Democrats are stopping ANYTHING that would result in asylum seekers actually getting a hearing before being admitted into the country. Why do you think this is the case?

I think your questions are:
1) Would I let parents go if it means they aren't separated from the children?
Yes, if that is what it takes. But, that doesn't mean that you can't hold the parents and allow the children to be with them.

2) Do I realize that this loophole has been used.
Yes, since the Carter era. This isn't new. And don't forget - the old generations of Republicans were complicit.

3) Do I believe that the Ds are trying to stop anything that doesn't allow ALL asylum seekers.
Yes, that is there stance that we should accept some asylum seekers. Some in the Ds are nut jobs and want to accept ALL asylum seekers. Yes, I get that. But the current administration wants to accept NO asylum seekers and wants NO immigration. That is equally out there. And there-in lies the problem. And that is where Trump was incredibly misguided in his political approach - and it boomeranged.

4) Do I realize that Trump wants to build a wall.
Yes, and it is silly/ridiculous. And he doesn't have support for it in his own party. There will be not compromise if he holds this position.

2. are you not at least a little impressed that Trump has the kind of (growing) political capital to take such a stand that most republicans did not have the political capital to be so firm? In regards to separating families, Trump didn't cave for trump(directly). He caved for the weaker R's that dont have that kind of political juice and are up at the midterms. He doesn't want to lose the house in the midterms. But if midterms were a year away he would have stuck to his guns and stuck it out. and likely brought both sides to the table on comprehensive immigration reform. That WAS the goal. Public outcry was enough. Media was all over it. Both the D's and R's were going to HAVE to do something to get it done. They just didn't want to give him his wall. Not because wall wont work. I'm certain the wall will work. The D's know they cant give him the victory on his wall. If they do they would not be able to take back the house this year(no impeachment) and have no chance to beat him in 2020 either. Whoever runs in 2020 opposite trump, their speech is already written, "Mr. president, where is your wall?" Seriously, if they give him his wall, what will be the remaining campaign pledge he didn't keep? "Lock her up?" The man has delivered on everything he campaigned on. everything.

And that's the real issue. Thats why YOU dont want the wall. because YOU dont like trump. We've got UE at 3.8%. might get below 3 and GDP at 4.8% ...and you think he cant govern? Thats the only reason YOU dont want the wall. Because Ive been reading your posts for 1.5 years. And you know what?...you are not that far off from Nate and I. You're not. You know that, right? INcluding this immigration stuff. You basically want what we want. So you have to know that the wall(98% impenetrable border) would make this immigration enforcement easier. The wall would continue to keep low end labor scarce which drives up wages for everyone. You pay the people at the bottom more money and everyone above them ends up with a pay raise. It works! And it is working right now. Wages are up for the first time in 20 years.

Additionally, Wall helps in other areas

1. Border and ICE would not cost so much and waste time on trafficking and people control and can focus on keeping drugs out.

2. wages would continue to rise as they are RIGHT NOW do to low labor force supply and high demand. <--thats just proven "market science" through thousands of years.

(4.) so why is this wall so ridiculous?

1. It will put a lot of people to work? right? Thats a good thing, i thought?
2. Its so damn costly that our GDP might even rise a couple decimal points.
3. It will (mostly is not entirely) stop families with young children from crossing the border illegally, right?
4. Guns cross the border going south to mexican and central american gangs and cartels. It would be good to stop that right?
5. Drugs!! need i mention the drugs? Estimates are that 80% of the illicit drugs in our country enter through our souther border. The wall could stop 30? 40? 50% of that? I dunno...whatever % it stops might be a good thing, no? and it might make the rest of the illicit drugs much more expensive<--it's that proven market supply and demand thing. So maybe our kids cant get molly for $20? Maybe it costs them $80? And maybe a lot of kids that have $20 might not have $80? Might be a good thing? And maybe just maybe...when "everyone is (not) doing it" . maybe less and less kids will even try it for the first time? Just sayin'. These are all very worthy causes, imo.

So...I'm guessing that you just dont think any of that will "work?" Even though heavy border control right now IS working for most of this stuff like reducing the labor force and wages rising. But for you, you dont believe it, right?

Or........................Or.........wait for it............Or...........You just think it costs too much???? It miiiiiiiiiight work? maybe? but its a waste of money??? Is that you position?

If so, then I ask: What if the wall was free? No cost to the tax payers? Would you be fine with the wall if it was free??

Important to note that Border control and enforcing existing border laws is clearly the objective of the president due to "national security." And it falling under the executive branch in general. So If the next administration wants relax border policy, you will get it. But with an existing wall? and border agents in place? And full immigration reform passed through congress? Future administrations will be stuck (mostly) enforcing it. Without the wall and without immigration reform, future (democrat/globalist) administrations can (and will) allow illegal immigrant to flood our low end labor force, which will drive wages down or keep them stagnant as they have been for 20 years for everyone(not just low end labor). And drugs will continue to pour into the country.

Again, if it was free to the american tax payers, would you approve of the wall?

[dckingsfan]

Just one clarification - the number one reason that people are exiting California is housing prices. And those housing price increases aren't due to "massive" immigration. They are due to local communities stopping housing development.

But they are stopping housing development because they don't want a bunch of poor immigrants moving in next door and bringing down their school system.

This is fractional at best - seem my previous post on California housing.

And the second reason is tax increases - those increases in taxes are due to the unfunded pension liabilities and the prison industrial complex.

The prison industrial complex thanks to gang warfare mostly controlled by immigrants, legal and illegal.

Actually mostly US citizen's on drug charges and due to three strikes. California has dug its own hole here.

And again - it is the Republican base in California that doesn't want to stop the flow of immigrants. Why? Because that base is largely in the central valley - they are farmers.

What Republican base in California? In the State House, Democrats outnumber Republicans 53-25.

In the US house and Senate with lobbying efforts from Republican farmers.

So, the reason this administration can't get their law(s) passed on immigration - is also because the Republicans.

I will cede that not all Republicans are strong on immigration. That's changing though.

No need to cede the argument - there are very good reasons that California farmers don't want a zero immigration policy. It isn't in their best interests. I was there in the Reagan years where he worked hard to make sure that there was enough labor - he didn't want to see the economy tank. California is a bad example. If you want to pick on the Ds there pick on them for other issues (unfunded liabilities, housing crisis, prison industrial complex (although that one was driven by Pete Wilson, the Ds happily went along).

[Zonkerbl]

You are a joke. This entire conversation, I'm the one engaging in policy specifics. All you do is shout "Hitler!".

I'm calling it like I see it. I have family members who died in the Holocaust - I'm not going to apologize for calling this bs out.

Here we go. "Everything I disagree with is the next Holocaust! "

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

[nate33]

I'm calling it like I see it. I have family members who died in the Holocaust - I'm not going to apologize for calling this bs out.

Here we go. "Everything I disagree with is the next Holocaust! "

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

[stilldropin20]

I'm calling it like I see it. I have family members who died in the Holocaust - I'm not going to apologize for calling this bs out.

Here we go. "Everything I disagree with is the next Holocaust! "

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

jesus christ zonker you are a piece of dog shxt!!! You've got problems buddy. go get some help. seriously.

and there's no effing way you work for the FBI. seriously you are the biggest liar on here. You have no compass.

[stilldropin20]

Here we go. "Everything I disagree with is the next Holocaust! "

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

i'd say, ban him. but its too much fun watching him throw temper tantrums like a 2 year old.

[gtn130]

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

How do you sleep at night with MS-13 pouring in through our open borders while the Swamp in Liberal Washington DC is abusing FISA Warrants, Unmasking Stuff, Sending Illegal Emails, Doing Spygate and routinely doing stuff that is Bigger Than Watergate™?

How can you be stable and happy with these monstrosities happening right before our eyes???

[stilldropin20]

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

How do you sleep at night with MS-13 pouring in through our open borders while the Swamp in Liberal Washington DC is abusing FISA Warrants, Unmasking Stuff, Sending Illegal Emails, Doing Spygate and routinely doing stuff that is Bigger Than Watergate™?

How can you be stable and happy with these monstrosities happening right before our eyes???

It's called the second amendment baby!

[gtn130]

SD20, absolutely nobody cares about your opinion.

The reason people engage with Nate and not you is that he's smarter than you (not a high bar to clear) and people think he can be reasoned with.

[nate33]

Your Democrat Party, ladies and gentlemen:

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

Here we go. "Everything I disagree with is the next Holocaust! "

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

Because I actually feel empathy for people who suffer. Sucks to not be a sociopath. Wait, no it doesn't.

[stilldropin20]

SD20, absolutely nobody cares about your opinion.

The reason people engage with Nate and not you is that he's smarter than you (not a high bar to clear) and people think he can be reasoned with.

yeah, i hate to break it to you but the "clicks" on these threads doubled when i started posting. seriously go back and check the thread right before the one i joined.

Some people enjoy, even love my posts. and others love to hate my posts. And that's by design. You have no design to your posts. You should (first decide on whatever your "message" actually is) and "game-plan" better to deliver it.

[nate33]

It is true that I disagree with everything you say. That's because everything you say is wrong. You are constantly throwing out ridiculously incorrect assumptions as facts and demanding that everyone agree with them.

It's also true that I perceive you as a hate filled bigot who considers extermination of immigrants something he would consider, although only "in extremis," whose perception of just about everything is distorted by hate and enthusiastically lives in an alternative reality bubble that constantly reinforces your bias of hate.

I absolutely stand by both of those things because they are absolutely true.

My wife would tell me it doesn't actually do any good to throw truth in people's faces, that it only makes me feel good but does not in fact convince anybody. Maybe I should show more empathy for the deep seated pain Nate is obviously in that makes him lash out at the world with hate. Maybe Nate's hate is driven by sexual abuse he suffered as a child that he is repressing and it comes out like this, or something equally awful that I would be more sympathetic to if I knew about it. If that's the case I'm sorry.

I can guarantee based on my interactions with you that my life is a lot more stable, happy and well-adjusted than yours.

Because I actually feel empathy for people who suffer. Sucks to not be a sociopath. Wait, no it doesn't.

You really are quite amazing. Non-stop emoting without reasonably discussing any topic. You contribute nothing to this board but comic relief.

[JWizmentality]

This has gone beyond the point of political disagreement. We are now at the point where we disagree on the very basics of right and wrong and the type of society we want to be. Here's the bottom line. I find nate, SD20 and people like them to be morally bankrupt, unapologetic hypocrites and just reprehensible human beings. Not going to sugar coat it. I'm done debating with them. So my progressive friends....vote vote vote. If there is one party that is incompetent enough to screw up this election it's the democrats. We will have to save them from themselves. Vote! Trump conservatism is destined for the ash heap of history.

[nate33]

This has gone beyond the point of political disagreement. We are now at the point where we disagree on the very basics of right and wrong and the type of society we want to be. Here's the bottom line. I find nate, SD20 and people like them to be morally bankrupt, unapologetic hypocrites and just reprehensible human beings. Not going to sugar coat it. I'm done debating with them. So my progressive friends....vote vote vote. If there is one party that is incompetent enough to screw up this election it's the democrats. We will have to save them from themselves. Vote! Trump conservatism is destined for the ash heap of history.

As I asked many times before: Exactly what remedy to you propose that doesn't involve letting illegal aliens into the country without any visa or asylum hearing?

You won't answer the question because you know it proves that nothing but open borders will satisfy you.

[JWizmentality]

This has gone beyond the point of political disagreement. We are now at the point where we disagree on the very basics of right and wrong and the type of society we want to be. Here's the bottom line. I find nate, SD20 and people like them to be morally bankrupt, unapologetic hypocrites and just reprehensible human beings. Not going to sugar coat it. I'm done debating with them. So my progressive friends....vote vote vote. If there is one party that is incompetent enough to screw up this election it's the democrats. We will have to save them from themselves. Vote! Trump conservatism is destined for the ash heap of history.

As I asked many times before: Exactly what remedy to you propose that doesn't involve letting illegal aliens into the country without any visa or asylum hearing?

You won't answer the question because you know it proves that nothing but open borders will satisfy you.

It's so amusing to sit here and see you blabber about what you think I want.

I'm not playing this if not A then B game with you.