Wendell Carter Jr - The Block Panther Edition

[Red Larrivee]

The truth is very few centers can guard in space. This narrative has taken off because of the Warriors, and in a copy cat league like the NBA, I get why it has. But until there are kids coming through AAU and college who project to guard in space, and be good enough at it to stay on the floor, guys like Green will remain an outlier.

But in the interim, what the Warriors have actually is forced young bigs develop their face up and distance shooting game. Wendell does that well!

Honestly, the only negative about Carter may be his lateral quickness. I can cop that. But some of the other drawbacks of read on here today are far too extreme, as if we just drafted some lumbering veteran better suited to the game from 5 years ago.

And he's focusing on improving on it

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It seems reasonable to believe that Carter could grow into a player who defends the pick and roll at an above average level or better with time. It's very encouraging that he's already so far ahead than most bigs are defensively on fundamentals and instincts. Those are the type of big men who usually continue to improve on defense and add value.

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[DorO]

BTW, I'm probably bookmarking this thread, because some of us are gonna look really foolish in a couple of years.

I certainly hope that will happen and every Bulls should feel the same. A 19 yo players’ future can be very inpredictable and we have to give him a chance, same way that Lauri showed something different than many thought.

[RememberLu]

Can someone explain the Wakanda thing to me? I never saw that movie. I hate superhero movies.

[aguifs]

Wendell Carter is probably the most two-way player drafted in the top 10 this year.

It would be bad to only have Carter and markkanen and nothing else. That's why the real key is to sign outside free agents before those guys need contract extensions. You sign one or two or three high quality free agents not necessarily stars or Superstars but just good players and then you have Lauri and Carter and maybe one of Dunn and Lavine becomes a player or something like that or maybe one of your later pics you know turns into something of a player and next thing you know you have four to seven actual good players and you can contend. Probably won't win a championship but it's insane for any team to think that they will win a championship until it's clear that they will. That's how odds work.

And then we keep being swept in the first round for years to come... Typical Garpax...

A team with more good players on it than we've ever had in the history of the franchise, most of whom would be pretty young, is destined to be essentially a .500 team indefinitely? Just FYI that is what you're saying here. So if me clarifying what you're saying alarms you then maybe reread the scenario I painted.

We have two players reaching their peaks, they're not all-star level, Lauri that could hit the rookie wall at anytime and another big prospect when the league is going small... This sound to me as .500 ball for years to come. We're no players in free agency, we're.never able to trade to improve....

I bet Garpax will once again enter in despair mode and make a Ben Wallace, Boozer signing. They're always doing the same mistakes. Just wait and see them overpaying Jabari Parker...

Garpax don't have a clue and Jerry Reinsdorf accepts.... Actually he doesn't give a fu as long home games are selling out and we play some 1st round playoff games.

This franchise needs changes from top to bottom

[sco]

First: I don't hate the pick, I think he was arguably the BPA. That said, I hate that "A" part of the BPA. I'm not sure what trade was possible that could have netted us Bamba, but if it was Bobby or 22 that Donyell Marshall'd us I will be very mad. If there really wasn't a trade available, I guess I can accept that.

Second: I feel like the whole C narrative on this kid is need driven. He is 6'10 in shoes. That's undersized for a C. Especially with mediocre speed and leaping ability. His size and game are best suited to PF. It is the same argument that is used for Denzel Valentine playing SF. We already have a SG and Valentine is too slow to guard SG's.

Third: After watching him, I definitely see a bevvy of post and perimeter scoring skills, but I see a guy who is slow-footed and a guy who lacks defensive tenacity. He is smart, but so is Valentine, so is McDermott and that doesn't stop quick guys from blowing by them or bigger guys going over them.

My take-away is that we will force-fit this kid to a position where he will be routinely outmatched and remain a turn-style to the rim defensive team.

[Grodoboldo]

BTW, I'm probably bookmarking this thread, because some of us are gonna look really foolish in a couple of years.

I certainly hope that will happen and every Bulls should feel the same. A 19 yo players’ future can be very inpredictable and we have to give him a chance, same way that Lauri showed something different than many thought.

Exactly. And I said us because I might as well be wrong about him and he may bust. It's just that, at this pick, the risk involved in drafting Porter is much bigger, as corroborated by another 6 teams that picked after us.
Yes, I wanted that trade up. But at this time, I'll have to go by the FOs word and believe that the price was too steep. No shame in changing your opinion later though.

[BigUps]

ESPN's Monday Morning Quarterback on the NBA Draft has this tidbit about WCJ

Which one of the top centers is in the best situation to succeed?

Schmitz: Although Chicago is still working its way back to relevance, Wendell Carter Jr. is a huge get for the Bulls given his fit with Lauri Markkanen and Kris Dunn. Having two stretch threats at the big spots will be a major boost for Chicago. Dunn and Markkanen have the ability to put the ball on the deck in ways that make up for some of Carter's lack of agility.

http://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/23864259/2018-nba-draft-best-riskiest-most-surprising-picks

[RememberLu]

First: I don't hate the pick, I think he was arguably the BPA. That said, I hate that "A" part of the BPA. I'm not sure what trade was possible that could have netted us Bamba, but if it was Bobby or 22 that Donyell Marshall'd us I will be very mad. If there really wasn't a trade available, I guess I can accept that.

Second: I feel like the whole C narrative on this kid is need driven. He is 6'10 in shoes. That's undersized for a C. Especially with mediocre speed and leaping ability. His size and game are best suited to PF. It is the same argument that is used for Denzel Valentine playing SF. We already have a SG and Valentine is too slow to guard SG's.

Third: After watching him, I definitely see a bevvy of post and perimeter scoring skills, but I see a guy who is slow-footed and a guy who lacks defensive tenacity. He is smart, but so is Valentine, so is McDermott and that doesn't stop quick guys from blowing by them or bigger guys going over them.

My take-away is that we will force-fit this kid to a position where he will be routinely outmatched and remain a turn-style to the rim defensive team.

Seems like people want to have it two ways: they moan that GarPax took a "90s style plodding big man" in an era where those types of players are being de-emphasized, and then they also moan that WCJ is undersized to be a center. But he has all the skills you want from a modern big man; he can shoot the 3ball, he can pass, he can dribble-drive, he blocks shots and rebounds.

Is him being 6'10" really that big of a concern if, at the same time, people argue that the back-to-the-basket 7 footer is becoming a dinosaur?

[MrSparkle]

The offense ought to see an upgrade. Big question: in the grand scheme, is Niko gonna still be better than Carter? I think Niko very well might be, if he can take 1 more step in his confidence after a good NOP campaign. He can defend, shoot and create better.

Just feel like Pax does a lot 3 steps back, 3 steps forward kinda moves.

But we’ll see. Atleast it’s a young roster, yes... albeit one without any multi-position defenders (besides Hutchinson assuming he proves to be an NBA talent), which is probably the main problem with every Bulls team since 2011 (when Deng/Brewer/Asik/Taj/Noah could all switch and play their asses off on D).

[sco]

First: I don't hate the pick, I think he was arguably the BPA. That said, I hate that "A" part of the BPA. I'm not sure what trade was possible that could have netted us Bamba, but if it was Bobby or 22 that Donyell Marshall'd us I will be very mad. If there really wasn't a trade available, I guess I can accept that.

Second: I feel like the whole C narrative on this kid is need driven. He is 6'10 in shoes. That's undersized for a C. Especially with mediocre speed and leaping ability. His size and game are best suited to PF. It is the same argument that is used for Denzel Valentine playing SF. We already have a SG and Valentine is too slow to guard SG's.

Third: After watching him, I definitely see a bevvy of post and perimeter scoring skills, but I see a guy who is slow-footed and a guy who lacks defensive tenacity. He is smart, but so is Valentine, so is McDermott and that doesn't stop quick guys from blowing by them or bigger guys going over them.

My take-away is that we will force-fit this kid to a position where he will be routinely outmatched and remain a turn-style to the rim defensive team.

Seems like people want to have it two ways: they moan that GarPax took a "90s style plodding big man" in an era where those types of players are being de-emphasized, and then they also moan that WCJ is undersized to be a center. But he has all the skills you want from a modern big man; he can shoot the 3ball, he can pass, he can dribble-drive, he blocks shots and rebounds.

Is him being 6'10" really that big of a concern if, at the same time, people argue that the back-to-the-basket 7 footer is becoming a dinosaur?

I think you can be 6'10 and a "modern center" if you are athletic and quick. I don't see that in Carter.

I see him more like Brad Miller than I do Draymond Green.

[TheFinishSniper]

Is our lottery pick gonna start games?

[Hangtime84]

If Brooke Lopez and Robin Lopez were combined into one player that guy would be pretty good. Welcome, Wendell Carter Jr.

Totally expect him to dominate summer league.

[League Circles]

Fun fact regarding the alleged prevalence of "small ball". The Warriors, who allegedly play Green at C, have 6 players listed as centers on bbref:

West
Looney
McGee
Bell
Zaza
Jones

Those 6 players played 112% of the available minutes at C this year during the regular season. So, based on that, Green played zero center minutes during the regular season this year. If I'm being charitable, let's say Bell, Jones and Looney aren't centers, only Zaza, West and Mcgee are. Those 3 still played 66% of the C minutes. So Green played very, very little C this year. West and Zaza sure are quick mobile defenders and not at all older, plodding traditional bigs right?

Haha

Let's look at the playoffs:

Here the 6 listed centers played 92% of the available C minutes.

Fact is clear. Draymond Green doesn't actually really play C.

All the Warriors and Rockets have done is what the Bulls did 20+ years ago, which is to identify that if your C is not a plus on the court offensively or defensively in a circumstance relative to alternatives who may be smaller, there is no inherent reason to play the bigger guy just due to nominal size matchup. And so many bigs now days have undeveloped post games and jump shots, so they often don't help offensively. Then on defense, there is then a decreased need for post defense and an increased need for switching and pick and roll D.

This is not new. Smart teams like the Bulls in the 90s and the Warriors and Rockets now have always been able to figure this out and dumb teams haven't so they keep playing in the bad plotting centers. If the Warriors or Rockets had a real asset offensively at the center position they would simply play those players. They have nobody who has the offensive skill of somebody like Wendell Carter. I mean we've seen traditional so-called plotting centers absolutely dominated in the post Jordan era after small ball was clearly established. Shaquille O'Neal Tim Duncan Alonzo Mourning etcetera. Steve Kerr is not a genius because Jordan Bell and guys like that are sometimes better options then guys like ZaZa. Just like kukoc and Rodman were sometimes better than Longley and Purdue which curve course noticed in the 1990s. It's not coaching to a system it's coaching to the strengths of your roster. Teams like the Warriors have been unable to get centers with skills that justify playing them all of the time. Because of course they've been so successful in getting high-caliber players in other roles. Same with the Bulls in the 90s. But any team who can get a center who can actually dominate scoring or even just score effectively inside will use them and that would include the Warriors right now if they happen to be able to get their hands on somebody like that.

[Poohdini1]

We're gonna battle for the 4 seed for the next 5-10 years and proceed to get bounced by Philly & Boston in the 2nd round every season.

[RememberLu]

First: I don't hate the pick, I think he was arguably the BPA. That said, I hate that "A" part of the BPA. I'm not sure what trade was possible that could have netted us Bamba, but if it was Bobby or 22 that Donyell Marshall'd us I will be very mad. If there really wasn't a trade available, I guess I can accept that.

Second: I feel like the whole C narrative on this kid is need driven. He is 6'10 in shoes. That's undersized for a C. Especially with mediocre speed and leaping ability. His size and game are best suited to PF. It is the same argument that is used for Denzel Valentine playing SF. We already have a SG and Valentine is too slow to guard SG's.

Third: After watching him, I definitely see a bevvy of post and perimeter scoring skills, but I see a guy who is slow-footed and a guy who lacks defensive tenacity. He is smart, but so is Valentine, so is McDermott and that doesn't stop quick guys from blowing by them or bigger guys going over them.

My take-away is that we will force-fit this kid to a position where he will be routinely outmatched and remain a turn-style to the rim defensive team.

Seems like people want to have it two ways: they moan that GarPax took a "90s style plodding big man" in an era where those types of players are being de-emphasized, and then they also moan that WCJ is undersized to be a center. But he has all the skills you want from a modern big man; he can shoot the 3ball, he can pass, he can dribble-drive, he blocks shots and rebounds.

Is him being 6'10" really that big of a concern if, at the same time, people argue that the back-to-the-basket 7 footer is becoming a dinosaur?

I think you can be 6'10 and a "modern center" if you are athletic and quick. I don't see that in Carter.

I see him more like Brad Miller than I do Draymond Green.

I mean there's different kinds of athleticism, right? He's got a handling and driving ability that can get him past a lot of centers in the league and put pressure on defenses. He's not the greatest leaper, especially from a stand still from right under the basket. What he lacks in athleticism he can make up for in sheer skill and versatility.

I wanted Bamba but, there's no denying that WCJ right now, today, is more versatile than Bamba and a bigger threat on the offensive end than Bamba. The fact that he shoots the 3 as comfortable as he does means he adds another aspect to our team offense in a way that Bamba wouldn't.

[bad knees]

Against who? The bad teams still playing archaic basketball?


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I'm so confused as to why you think Carter is some plodding center who can't defend. His biggest value came from the defensive end.

The worst part of the narrative that Carter can't stay on the floor is who we're comparing him against. People are talking as if Draymond Green is now the norm, not the outlier he is. He is what he is because he's unique. The league isn't filled with many mobile centers who can stay on the floor who team's downsize. So unless every team benches their big, it's not an issue.

What modern bigs need to have, at a minimum, is a jump shot and a multi-faceted ability on offense. Carter does all of this. And yes, his defense in space is a question, but that is so for virtually every big in the league.

Basically, I see this as people complaining about a problem without offering a solution. And when they do provide a solution, that one is equally as flawed, perhaps even more so.

I don't know how I've all of a sudden become a Bulls apologist, but I'm very happy with this pick and think people are following the 'small ball' narrative a little too far.

The solution was to trade up for JJJ, who absolutely could stay on the floor with Lauri when other teams go small, because JJJ has unicorn like ability to defend on the perimeter for a big.

And of course the FO defenders can always shoot down any proposed trade idea by saying that “there’s no evidence” that the proposed trade would have worked. Of course there isn’t, because we aren’t in the trade negotiations.

But we do know that MEM wanted to dump Parsons’ contract, that they liked WCJ, and that we had the cap space to make a trade happen. We also know that the Bulls tend to overvalue their own assets (eg Portis) and that they inexplicably gave a promise at 22 which took that pick off the table as a trade asset.

And of course we know that Cuban found a way to trade up for Doncic.

So forgive me, but I do think that there was a better option - an incredibly great option actually - and I do fault the Bulls FO for not getting it done.


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[kulaz3000]

Woah, Carter does not move anywhere close to Brad Miller. My god, c'mon now. Brad miller would take an entire shot clock to drive from the 3 point line to the basket.

I think people are really underrating Wendall as an athlete.

[Red Larrivee]

I think you can be 6'10 and a "modern center" if you are athletic and quick. I don't see that in Carter.

I see him more like Brad Miller than I do Draymond Green.

Miller is laughably slow. Carter is not slow, nor does he lack mobility. Carter simply lacks high-end speed and athleticism, which has never been a requirement from the position.

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[bad knees]

A player the caliber of Wendell Carter in my opinion in two years would easily start and play 30 minutes a game Golden State at the center position.

And what about Lauri? Would he play the 4 for Golden State? The problem with drafting WCJ is that one of the guys we picked at 7 in the past two years will have to come off the court when good teams go small.


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[sco]

Woah, Carter does not move anywhere close to Brad Miller. My god, c'mon now. Brad miller would take an entire shot clock to drive from the 3 point line to the basket.

I think people are really underrating Wendall as an athlete.

Dude looks molasses slow to me. Ok, how about Doug McDermott slow?