ImageImageImage

Trade and free agency speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

jredsaz
General Manager
Posts: 8,891
And1: 3,148
Joined: May 25, 2012
         

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1301 » by jredsaz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:32 am

carey wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:Anyone else think that since the Wizards dumped Gortat that they are positioning themselves to reunite Wall with Cousins? Makes sense to me. Wall/Beal/Otto/Keiff/Cousins


How would they make that work capwise? Otto Porter isn't that valuable.


There's an argument to be made that Porter is a much better fit than Cousins. They had a revolving door at SF last year. If they could add Porter to a line-up with Mirotic and Davis I doubt they would hesitate. Their record, defense, and offense all improved significantly when Boogie was hurt and they traded for Mirotic. Part of it is that they are better when AD is playing C, but another part is that Mirotic was really good for them.


I think the team is better with Porter but AD wants Cousins to stay. I'm betting they acquiesce to Davis demands.
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,229
And1: 24,587
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1302 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:33 am

TOO wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
KLEON wrote:I think GSW

I don't think so. They aren't after a locker room cancer.

At the 5, they don't really need more than someone like McGee who just finishes dunks and grabs the occasional rebound in about 10mpg


I also thought they would pursue Howard, they can deal with dummies like McGee/Nick Young they can deal with Dwight.

They're dumb but they're good team mates. By all measures, McGee and Nick just have low bball IQ but they are good guys in the locker room and fit the Warriors style (shooting and rim running). Dwight breaks offensive sets to go into his 'offense', clogs the paint and he's been widely considered a team cancer, which is why he's been traded 5 times in the past 6 seasons

This is a great read
https://deadspin.com/dwight-howard-reaches-sad-strange-new-stage-of-his-car-1826995600

He can still put up numbers. It just doesn’t matter.

For one, he is increasingly out of step with the direction of the league, and in Charlotte he clogged up the middle, kept Kemba Walker and other Hornets perimeter players from getting to the rim as often, and slowed things down too much for a team that wanted to run.
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,229
And1: 24,587
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1303 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:40 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
NTB wrote:
Read on Twitter



Nope. Would be an offensive disaster and cement us into being the worst shooting team in basketball.


Add one non-shooter and we're the worst shooting team in basketball? Were the Celtics the worst shooting team in basketball? :banghead:

We're already the worst shooting team in basketball last season. Replacing Payton with a guy who has an even worse eFG% is a solid step in the right direction if our goal is to stay the worst shooting team in basketball.
jredsaz
General Manager
Posts: 8,891
And1: 3,148
Joined: May 25, 2012
         

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1304 » by jredsaz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:47 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
NTB wrote:
Read on Twitter



Nope. Would be an offensive disaster and cement us into being the worst shooting team in basketball.


Add one non-shooter and we're the worst shooting team in basketball? Were the Celtics the worst shooting team in basketball? :banghead:


Pretty sure they were close to the worst, if not the worst, last season.
AtheJ415
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 5,560
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1305 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:47 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
NTB wrote:
Read on Twitter



Nope. Would be an offensive disaster and cement us into being the worst shooting team in basketball.


Add one non-shooter and we're the worst shooting team in basketball? Were the Celtics the worst shooting team in basketball? :banghead:



No. We, the current Phoenix Suns, were, and then in this hypothetical you would be adding the worst shooter in the NBA who is also arguably the worst shooting PG in about 30 years. So yeah, bang your head all you want. Won't change the truth.
asudevil
Analyst
Posts: 3,246
And1: 689
Joined: Apr 29, 2004

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1306 » by asudevil » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:47 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
NTB wrote:
Read on Twitter



Nope. Would be an offensive disaster and cement us into being the worst shooting team in basketball.


Add one non-shooter and we're the worst shooting team in basketball? Were the Celtics the worst shooting team in basketball? :banghead:


Well we were 28th/30 in FG% last year....so adding another terrible shooter really doesn't help that cause.

I don't have a problem with what Smart brings to the table. My issue with him is that he thinks he's better than he really is. He's a $10mil GOOD backup,
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,229
And1: 24,587
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1307 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:58 am

Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters
User avatar
darealjuice
Suns Forum Future All Star
Posts: 6,694
And1: 8,900
Joined: Apr 22, 2016
Location: Phoenix
   

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1308 » by darealjuice » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:08 am

Read on Twitter
Blackification
Head Coach
Posts: 6,473
And1: 2,229
Joined: Feb 13, 2009

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1309 » by Blackification » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:16 am

Why go for Smart over Bradley? Ideally I hope we get Bradley and Thaddeus young.

Bradley/Knight/Okobo
Booker/Bridges/Reed
Jackson/Warren/
Young/Bender/Chriss
Ayton/Williams
ImNotMcDiSwear
General Manager
Posts: 8,287
And1: 6,411
Joined: Dec 14, 2013
 

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1310 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:20 am

lilfishi22 wrote:Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters


:o

.
.
.
Edit: to clarify my :o:

Tatum - 34.3 3FG% on 4 3FGA*
Horford - 35.5 3FG% on 3.6 3FGA
Brown - 34.1 3FG% on 1.7 3FGA
Baynes - 0 3FGA
Kyrie - 40.1 3FG% on 6.1 3FGA
Mook - 33.1 3FG% on 4.5 3FGA
Rozier - 31.8 3FG% on 2.4 3FGA
Smart - 28.3 3FG% on 4.2 3FGA

Not that impressive, is it? The asterisk represents a college basketball stat; the rest are these players' percentages and attempts from the prior year. How did all of these players (save Kyrie and Smart) suddenly improve so dramatically?

You can't tell me Brown is a better shooter than Booker. If that's your opinion, you rely too heavily on stats. We all complain about our coaching and culture and mix of players, and then we assume these factors that negatively impact our team's production somehow wouldn't have a depressing affect on our players' stats.

Bender shot better from 3 last year than Horford had during any year of his career, save for last season. Bridges shot much better in college than did Tatum. Why can't Jackson or Warren improve, with a system that caters to, and personnel that compliments, their abilities? If you tell TJ to focus on the corner 3, I bet you he can get to 35% on moderate volume. I think Jackson has high-thirties in him - and maybe better. Brandon's down to a career 35.7 3FG%, after his disastrous first two seasons in Phoenix - better than any of the Celtics' rotation players other than Kyrie if you're looking at the previous year's stats.

I submit to you that if you put our current cast in a good system with Ayton in the middle, you'll see our players' percentages more closely approach their full potential. Certainly, Smart doesn't prevent other players from shooting the ball well. I submit to you that our roster as currently constructed - and with an additional point guard - will shoot the ball well and generate quality offense. Marcus Smart's deficiency in this regard I can't believe is so terrible as to negate that.

But what this squad does not have is great defenders. Dragan's good, but not great, and is limited in what he can do. Ayton obviously is no defensive savant. Booker's not a good defender and can only hope to get closer to average, IMO. TJ's underrated, but not great. Jackson should be solid but I don't think will ever be a stopper. And Knight - well, I'm just hoping for "not bad." Bridges is the only blue-chip defender in that core group.

I think Marcus Smart elevates his teammates, and that he would help plug the HUGE hole on the defensive end in our Booker-Knight-[???]-JJ-Daniels-[Okobo] backcourt rotation. If you don't see that the hole in the backcourt is not shooting, but defense, I don't know what to tell you. We have the talent on offense and a coach that can get us to good or great on that end. On defense? That's where we need better players. Ain't nobody coaching well enough to turn Knight/Booker into a solid defensive backcourt.

The ONLY reasons I'm dubious about the prospect of adding Smart is how impressed I was by Shaq's performance at the end of last season, and how willing Smart and Knight are to taking a bench role. If not for those factors, Marcus would be clear and away my Plan A for the offseason. I go back and forth on whether he's Plan or Plan B, but in any case, he's foremost in my mind when I think of this year's free agents.
Villalobos
Pro Prospect
Posts: 995
And1: 1,266
Joined: Apr 27, 2016

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1311 » by Villalobos » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:26 am

if you can't even look half-decent in Brad Stevens' offense, then you're gonna be absolute garbage on most other teams
jredsaz
General Manager
Posts: 8,891
And1: 3,148
Joined: May 25, 2012
         

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1312 » by jredsaz » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:42 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters


:o


The only bright spot for Smart offensively is his free throw shooting at 73%. Maybe he has some potential there still but overall his offensive game is just bad.
BobbieL
RealGM
Posts: 15,353
And1: 8,997
Joined: Jun 24, 2009

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1313 » by BobbieL » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:48 am

jredsaz wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters


:o


The only bright spot for Smart offensively is his free throw shooting at 73%. Maybe he has some potential there still but overall his offensive game is just bad.


I get Smart is terrible shooter but he is a baller. Defends, plays hard but the Suns do need offense more than a liability. If we knew Knight would be better offensively but that’s a risk can’t take. Granted I do think Smart has a skillset for the right team. Maybe just not Phoenix
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,229
And1: 24,587
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1314 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:52 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters


:o

Shooting percentages generally goes down in the playoffs but here's Smart's shooting numbers during their playoff run

eFG% - .388
3PT% - .221 (on 4.5 attempts a game!?!)
2PT% - .440
TS% - .447

In a role where he'll be *expected* to create more for himself, others and find less open opportunities, I don't think Smart would be a wise choice.
TeamTragic
General Manager
Posts: 9,000
And1: 7,028
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
 

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1315 » by TeamTragic » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:57 am

I would prefer Bradley over Smart. Does he even want to play here?
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 36,229
And1: 24,587
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1316 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:01 am

BobbieL wrote:
jredsaz wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
:o


The only bright spot for Smart offensively is his free throw shooting at 73%. Maybe he has some potential there still but overall his offensive game is just bad.


I get Smart is terrible shooter but he is a baller. Defends, plays hard but the Suns do need offense more than a liability. If we knew Knight would be better offensively but that’s a risk can’t take. Granted I do think Smart has a skillset for the right team. Maybe just not Phoenix

Smart would be a solid player for the right team....like the C's. Except he thinks he's more than what he is and wants to get paid for that. I love that he's basically a 6'4 PJ Tucker in that he competes, rebounds, hustles and guards anyone from 1-4 but even PJ has his "spot* (corner 3) where's he's a threat from distance. After 4 seasons in the league, holding a career .293 3PT% and still has a near .500 3PT attempt rate, I really think there's only a small handful of teams that could use a player like him. We're definitely not that team.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,451
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1317 » by Revived » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:11 am

GoranTragic wrote:I would prefer Bradley over Smart. Does he even want to play here?

All Celtics media feels he will chase the money so he will come here as long as he gets paid.
AtheJ415
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 5,560
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1318 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:19 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Also as comparisons, this was the 3PT% and eFG% of Boston's 8 man rotation last season
Tatum - .434/.538
Horford - .429/.553
Brown - .395/.540
Baynes - .143/.474
Kyrie - .408/.568
Mook - .368/.499
Rozier - .381/.491
Smart - .301/.440

They could afford to have one guy shoot 30% from the 3 with an overall .440eFG% because the rest of their rotations were at the very least capable 3PT shooters


:o

.
.
.
Edit: to clarify my :o:

Tatum - 34.3 3FG% on 4 3FGA*
Horford - 35.5 3FG% on 3.6 3FGA
Brown - 34.1 3FG% on 1.7 3FGA
Baynes - 0 3FGA
Kyrie - 40.1 3FG% on 6.1 3FGA
Mook - 33.1 3FG% on 4.5 3FGA
Rozier - 31.8 3FG% on 2.4 3FGA
Smart - 28.3 3FG% on 4.2 3FGA

Not that impressive, is it? The asterisk represents a college basketball stat; the rest are these players' percentages and attempts from the prior year. How did all of these players (save Kyrie and Smart) suddenly improve so dramatically?

You can't tell me Brown is a better shooter than Booker. If that's your opinion, you rely too heavily on stats. We all complain about our coaching and culture and mix of players, and then we assume these factors that negatively impact our team's production somehow wouldn't have a depressing affect on our players' stats.

Bender shot better from 3 last year than Horford had during any year of his career, save for last season. Bridges shot much better in college than did Tatum. Why can't Jackson or Warren improve, with a system that caters to, and personnel that compliments, their abilities? If you tell TJ to focus on the corner 3, I bet you he can get to 35% on moderate volume. I think Jackson has high-thirties in him - and maybe better. Brandon's down to a career 35.7 3FG%, after his disastrous first two seasons in Phoenix - better than any of the Celtics' rotation players other than Kyrie if you're looking at the previous year's stats.

I submit to you that if you put our current cast in a good system with Ayton in the middle, you'll see our players' percentages more closely approach their full potential. Certainly, Smart doesn't prevent other players from shooting the ball well. I submit to you that our roster as currently constructed - and with an additional point guard - will shoot the ball well and generate quality offense. Marcus Smart's deficiency in this regard I can't believe is so terrible as to negate that.

But what this squad does not have is great defenders. Dragan's good, but not great, and is limited in what he can do. Ayton obviously is no defensive savant. Booker's not a good defender and can only hope to get closer to average, IMO. TJ's underrated, but not great. Jackson should be solid but I don't think will ever be a stopper. And Knight - well, I'm just hoping for "not bad." Bridges is the only blue-chip defender in that core group.

I think Marcus Smart elevates his teammates, and that he would help plug the HUGE hole on the defensive end in our Booker-Knight-[???]-JJ-Daniels-[Okobo] backcourt rotation. If you don't see that the hole in the backcourt is not shooting, but defense, I don't know what to tell you. We have the talent on offense and a coach that can get us to good or great on that end. On defense? That's where we need better players. Ain't nobody coaching well enough to turn Knight/Booker into a solid defensive backcourt.

The ONLY reasons I'm dubious about the prospect of adding Smart is how impressed I was by Shaq's performance at the end of last season, and how willing Smart and Knight are to taking a bench role. If not for those factors, Marcus would be clear and away my Plan A for the offseason. I go back and forth on whether he's Plan or Plan B, but in any case, he's foremost in my mind when I think of this year's free agents.



That's exactly what he does. You do not need to guard him and thus can shadow, help, or double whoever the hell on the other team you want. Smart is the worst offensive PG in about 30 years. That impacts your offense in a big way. Boston has a system that is geared around each player's strengths and minimizes their weaknesses. They have maximized the ability of the players on that team, as evidenced by the massive dropoff in production by nearly every role player that has left there. I submit to you that it is reasonable to assume Smart would do similar, in that his defense and offense would both get worse leaving there. And that regardless, he is an awful fit for this team because we need shooting every bit as much as we need defense. We need 3 & D not 3 or D.
AtheJ415
Head Coach
Posts: 6,581
And1: 5,560
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1319 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:21 am

Villalobos wrote:if you can't even look half-decent in Brad Stevens' offense, then you're gonna be absolute garbage on most other teams


Even Rozier, who looks amazing in that Boston offense, would average double the turnovers on another team. He drives loose when he doesn't have a straight line drive, and they accordingly put only their strongest shooters on his strong hand baseline side. The entire system is geared towards maximizing each player's offensive ability. And even then, Smart may be the worst offensive PG of the modern era in it. I am appalled that there is even 1 fan out there who wants to pay this guy more than the vet minimum.
Revived
RealGM
Posts: 37,451
And1: 22,229
Joined: Feb 17, 2011

Re: Trade and free agency speculation 

Post#1320 » by Revived » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:23 am

darealjuice wrote:
Read on Twitter

Pathetic. I'm losing respect for Cuban for him doing this after Jordan humiliated them last time.

Return to Phoenix Suns