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Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M

Moderators: HomoSapien, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10, Ice Man, dougthonus, Michael Jackson, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23

What's he worth?

13 million/yr
36
27%
14 million/yr
19
15%
15 million/yr
20
15%
16 million/yr
27
21%
17 million/yr
15
11%
18+ million/yr
14
11%
 
Total votes: 131

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Re: RE: Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1921 » by fleet » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:02 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:
Betta Bulleavit wrote:Looks like the Kings are out according to wiretap.

... were never in
Agreed. And there's just not a lot of money out there. The question is does that mean the front office should screw a player by offering them well under what their real market value is because they have the leverage of them being restricted during a year when no one has money?

I don't agree with the characterization of using leverage as screwing the player. It's a 2 way street. Agents and players understand this completely. No franchise operates on the generosity principle. Unless in an extreme circumstance where the player has a long record of accomplishment for the team. Safe to say, that is not Lavine at all.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1922 » by InsideInfo » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:04 pm

This feels very Ben Gordonish to me.

I get the feeling that Zach is gunna end up playing on the QO and looking for big money next year.

I think the Marcus Smart situation is very telling in that he has no offer and the Cs are not even calling him. There is just no money flowing this offseason. A couple years ago everyone was getting paid...this offseason there really hasn't been to many crazy signings.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1923 » by fleet » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:09 pm

SensiBull wrote:For the record, the choices in the thread poll range from $13 - $18 MM; but, while the top option says "$18MM+" the bottom option only says "13MM."

It doesn't say "or less."

This may be affecting both participation levels and the results.

If I add another option it will wipe out all the prior vote results
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1924 » by AshyLarrysDiaper » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:09 pm

fleet wrote:
SensiBull wrote:Something else that informs my view on LaVine is a positive comment made about another Bulls player - Wendell Carter, Jr.

About two months before the draft, an NBA fan made a video touting WCJ as the best big in the draft. He talked about the usual stuff we've all heard ((Bagley's reclassifiation concealed his true ability, unselfish player, rim protector w/2 blks per game, 3 pt range, good shot mechanics, turned down Harvard, etc.). You know the pitch. We all heard it.


Then he said something really subjective that I've never heard anyone else say about WCJ in relation to other bigs in this draft that I'm not sure I'd say about lots of players, not just Zach Lavine. It was one of those things that you see all the time, but can't put your finger on until someone says it out loud.

He said, "Plus, Wendell just moves like what I call a 'hooper.''"

I don't want to misquote him, but he went on to point out how some young players have natural physical gifts, and you can tell that someone tapped them on the shoulder one day, and said, "Have you ever thought of applying that gift to basketball?" as opposed to someone who spent long days playing 21 or horse all day, out of love, and just happened to have the physical makeup later in life, just as an aside, to actually do it for a living.

I ask myself, "If LaVine did NOT have a 44" vert (and one day he won't), what would his all-around game look like? How would it be structured?"

In the absence of anything more than an enigmatic answer to that question, my natural instinct is to insure myself against that quite realistic scenario.

It was a video and a point that does not help Zach Lavine's case, that's for sure.


I remember the video and the comment, and it confirmed what’s become a secondary litmus test of mine for projecting NBA perimeter players:

Do you play basketball in your free time?

Not drills. Not plyometrics. Basketball.

You look at the elite guards and wings and, almost invariably, they seek our pick up games during the summer. I’m not talking Drew League-type events, though they count too in a way. I mean they blow through Los Angeles and find out where the daily game is and go there for 5 on 5 because they NEED to get a run in.

Off the top of my head, LeBron, KD, CP3, PG, Devon Booker, Steph, Hoodie Melo and DeRozan do this.

To me this says a couple things: one, you like the game enough to play it when you’re not getting paid. That passion for basketball is the throughline in the careers of the greats.

Two, you’re putting in extra hours to get your feel, instincts and craft right.

Zach may play pick up basketball for all I know. I haven’t heard one way or another. But, given his feel issues, I’d be more reassured by hearing he’s been hunting down basketball games than I am by his backyard workout videos with oversized tires and stuff.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1925 » by Stratmaster » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:10 pm

fleet wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
BoogieTime wrote:... were never in
Agreed. And there's just not a lot of money out there. The question is does that mean the front office should screw a player by offering them well under what their real market value is because they have the leverage of them being restricted during a year when no one has money?

I don't agree with the characterization of using leverage as screwing the player. It's a 2 way street. Agents and players understand this completely. No franchise operates on the generosity principle. Unless in an extreme circumstance where the player has a long record of accomplishment for the team. Safe to say, that is not Lavine at all.
So if the Bulls offered, say 8 mil, you're fine with that?

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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1926 » by musiqsoulchild » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:10 pm

League Circles wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
Alcatraz17 wrote:
Exactly.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather roll the dice on someone who was the centerpiece of our Butler trade, someone that we targeted and someone that wants to be here. I'm a big believer in player development and scheme/roster continuity so if Devin freaking Booker is getting 5/$158M I'm sure we can handle something like 4/$80. We need to procure talent on this roster.

I see. I actually generally believe the same thing in terms of a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush. but he was talking about signing One Max free agent and trading for another. Which is like one bird in a bush across the state and one bird in a bush in China. And I don't really consider LaVine to be a bird in our hand but rather kind of like a scrap of toilet paper in our hand.


Then you're not reading this correctly.

Most of the teams will be looking at the same strategy. The smart ones then pivot 180 and benefit from it. Lets facilitate another team getting cap space by taking on their long-term contracts.

The 2 FA thing is nice on paper, but you dont leave yourself any outs if it doesnt work. Its a lot better to have a SOLID foundation on which to add 1 Max FA and complementary pieces.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1927 » by Threekola » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:13 pm

So if he plays on the qualifying offer it is roughly 11,250,000? 2.5 times his qualifying offer. Seems like the best case scenario as far as creating cap room next season. But no win long term, if he blows up you are going to have to pay him way more to stay. And he might just leave because he’s mad how he was treated.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1928 » by JimmyJammer » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:16 pm

League Circles wrote:
JimmyJammer wrote:If the Bulls think LaVine is worth between 15-16 mil and Lavine thinks he is worth more, they can solve this issue easily by offering him an incentive based contract. The incentive will be based on how many games he plays, if he makes the all-star team, if he makes all-nba teams, all-defensive teams, how many assists he averages, playoffs appearances, weight limits, percentage of body fat during the season. They can start with 15mil base contract that go up to 21mil a season based on the incentives. If they do that, no one will feel cheated of their worthiness.

it's actually much more complicated than that which is why you don't see these type of contract often given especially to free agents for teams operating under the salary cap. The reason is that when you have incentives the league decides on whether the incentive is likely or unlikely to be reached and adjust the salary cap hit preemptively according to their determination. And the cap hit is really all that matters not how much we actually pay him. So this is extremely unlikely to happen in my opinion.


The Bulls cannot let the potential difference between 16mil and 21mil be the reason they don't resign a player they tried to sell to us as the centerpiece of the Jimmy Butler trade. What has changed from last June until now? The organization clearly stated that their goal was to see LaVine hit the ground running at some point during the season, which he did. They also stated that they expected to see bumps on the road to his recovery, which there were. Additionally, the organization cannot intentionally hold back the players during the season to supposedly minimize risks of reinjuring himself and try to use these same stats to determine his worth. So, what is really the problem? You cannot start leaking stories about how you are now building around Lauri because it is time to negotiate a contract. This is the kind of things I find to be unethical.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1929 » by musiqsoulchild » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:16 pm

Threekola wrote:So if he plays on the qualifying offer it is roughly 11,250,000? 2.5 times his qualifying offer. Seems like the best case scenario as far as creating cap room next season. But no win long term, if he blows up you are going to have to pay him way more to stay. And he might just leave because he’s mad how he was treated.


The Niko situation all over.

Which is why I want a hedge.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1930 » by Hangtime84 » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:17 pm

InsideInfo wrote:This feels very Ben Gordonish to me.

I get the feeling that Zach is gunna end up playing on the QO and looking for big money next year.

I think the Marcus Smart situation is very telling in that he has no offer and the Cs are not even calling him. There is just no money flowing this offseason. A couple years ago everyone was getting paid...this offseason there really hasn't been to many crazy signings.


Marcus Smart and Zach Lavine over pricing their market value.

Smart laughed said he was worth more than 15million a year

Lavine also laughed thinking he was worth more 16million a year.

Bulls aren't handing out bad contracts or betting on potential anymore.
Jcool0 wrote:
aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?


If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.


NBA fan logic we need to trade one of two best players because (Player X) one needs to shine more.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1931 » by TheFinishSniper » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:21 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Threekola wrote:So if he plays on the qualifying offer it is roughly 11,250,000? 2.5 times his qualifying offer. Seems like the best case scenario as far as creating cap room next season. But no win long term, if he blows up you are going to have to pay him way more to stay. And he might just leave because he’s mad how he was treated.


The Niko situation all over.

Which is why I want a hedge.

Niko still got overpaid tho when he got his deal. And we was let's not forget stat wise positive impact player. Bulls fans dont like paying either guys who are mentally soft like Niko despite having positive impact or not winning players like Lavine.

Dont blame them. Tying money to guys who are anything but sure real deals is counterproductive in 95% of situations when you building a team. You can always waste that money later, because either way if guys arent real deal you will still suck and be stuck at the bottom.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1932 » by jacoby1us » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:21 pm

JimmyJammer wrote:
League Circles wrote:
JimmyJammer wrote:If the Bulls think LaVine is worth between 15-16 mil and Lavine thinks he is worth more, they can solve this issue easily by offering him an incentive based contract. The incentive will be based on how many games he plays, if he makes the all-star team, if he makes all-nba teams, all-defensive teams, how many assists he averages, playoffs appearances, weight limits, percentage of body fat during the season. They can start with 15mil base contract that go up to 21mil a season based on the incentives. If they do that, no one will feel cheated of their worthiness.

it's actually much more complicated than that which is why you don't see these type of contract often given especially to free agents for teams operating under the salary cap. The reason is that when you have incentives the league decides on whether the incentive is likely or unlikely to be reached and adjust the salary cap hit preemptively according to their determination. And the cap hit is really all that matters not how much we actually pay him. So this is extremely unlikely to happen in my opinion.


The Bulls cannot let the potential difference between 16mil and 21mil be the reason they don't resign a player they tried to sell to us as the centerpiece of the Jimmy Butler trade. What has changed from last June until now? The organization clearly stated that their goal was to see LaVine hit the ground running at some point during the season, which he did. They also stated that they expected to see bumps on the road to his recovery, which there were. Additionally, the organization cannot intentionally hold back the players during the season to supposedly minimize risks of reinjuring himself and try to use these same stats to determine his worth. So, what is really the problem? You cannot start leaking stories about how you are now building around Lauri because it is time to negotiate a contract. This is the kind of things I find to be unethical.



I agree. At the point of the Butler trade it was known that Lavine would be the future. Now it’s time to pay and the Bulls are playing “ tight wallet” as usual. Guess Felicios over payment gave them PTSD.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1933 » by League Circles » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:24 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
League Circles wrote:
Truebiscuit wrote:
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather roll the dice on someone who was the centerpiece of our Butler trade, someone that we targeted and someone that wants to be here. I'm a big believer in player development and scheme/roster continuity so if Devin freaking Booker is getting 5/$158M I'm sure we can handle something like 4/$80. We need to procure talent on this roster.

I see. I actually generally believe the same thing in terms of a bird in the hand being worth two in the bush. but he was talking about signing One Max free agent and trading for another. Which is like one bird in a bush across the state and one bird in a bush in China. And I don't really consider LaVine to be a bird in our hand but rather kind of like a scrap of toilet paper in our hand.


Then you're not reading this correctly.

Most of the teams will be looking at the same strategy. The smart ones then pivot 180 and benefit from it. Lets facilitate another team getting cap space by taking on their long-term contracts.

The 2 FA thing is nice on paper, but you dont leave yourself any outs if it doesnt work. Its a lot better to have a SOLID foundation on which to add 1 Max FA and complementary pieces.

everyone on this forum is open to taking on long-term contracts for the correct assets. We can address any specific actual possibilities instead of generic imaginary possibilities. I'm open to discuss. A generic strategy is not something meaningful to discuss in terms of advocacy.

But again I don't understand what you're not getting. We don't have to do anything and we're not removing any options. What myself and much of the board are advocating is to wait on Bobby Portis wait on nwaba or give him a OnePlus One contract and give lavine a one plus one contract. Do you agree or disagree with this? I'm not asking if you think the Bulls will do this or whether or not you think another team will give him a multi-year offer. In the absence of an offer would you like to offer LaVine a OnePlus One contract or a long-term contract?

By offering a OnePlus One contract we can do anything next summer. We can keep Lavine we can keep Portis we can generically take on long-term salary from other teams for draft picks and or we can try to get two Max contract free agents. That's the beauty of it. We suck as a team and I want to maximize our possibilities to become great.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1934 » by League Circles » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:27 pm

jacoby1us wrote:
JimmyJammer wrote:
League Circles wrote:it's actually much more complicated than that which is why you don't see these type of contract often given especially to free agents for teams operating under the salary cap. The reason is that when you have incentives the league decides on whether the incentive is likely or unlikely to be reached and adjust the salary cap hit preemptively according to their determination. And the cap hit is really all that matters not how much we actually pay him. So this is extremely unlikely to happen in my opinion.


The Bulls cannot let the potential difference between 16mil and 21mil be the reason they don't resign a player they tried to sell to us as the centerpiece of the Jimmy Butler trade. What has changed from last June until now? The organization clearly stated that their goal was to see LaVine hit the ground running at some point during the season, which he did. They also stated that they expected to see bumps on the road to his recovery, which there were. Additionally, the organization cannot intentionally hold back the players during the season to supposedly minimize risks of reinjuring himself and try to use these same stats to determine his worth. So, what is really the problem? You cannot start leaking stories about how you are now building around Lauri because it is time to negotiate a contract. This is the kind of things I find to be unethical.



I agree. At the point of the Butler trade it was known that Lavine would be the future. Now it’s time to pay and the Bulls are playing “ tight wallet” as usual. Guess Felicios over payment gave them PTSD.

can you be more specific on what you mean by it was known That Lavine would be the future and why you believe it?
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1935 » by Bully6789 » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:27 pm

Red Larrivee wrote:KC said earlier today that the Bulls are bracing for an offer from a Western Conference team.


Good glad things are finally moving if the offer is larger Bulls will do s sign a trade before they blow up and give LaVine the house


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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1936 » by MisterRoy » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:33 pm

Bully6789 wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:KC said earlier today that the Bulls are bracing for an offer from a Western Conference team.


Good glad things are finally moving if the offer is larger Bulls will do s sign a trade before they blow up and give LaVine the house


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I think the Western Conference team was the Kings and reports say they are "pivoting" to taking on contracts with their cap space. I think the Bulls are in the drivers seat here. Also, both holv and ralph have said that Lavine is going to resign. I trust their information.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1937 » by TheJordanRule » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:33 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:
Threekola wrote:So if he plays on the qualifying offer it is roughly 11,250,000? 2.5 times his qualifying offer. Seems like the best case scenario as far as creating cap room next season. But no win long term, if he blows up you are going to have to pay him way more to stay. And he might just leave because he’s mad how he was treated.


The Niko situation all over.

Which is why I want a hedge.


Hedging is a 1+1 deal featuring an insane one time over pay with a team option for that second year. You’re not hedging if you sign him to a long term deal that costs us seventeen million every season. You’re straight up committing.
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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1938 » by Bully6789 » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:36 pm

MisterRoy wrote:
Bully6789 wrote:
Red Larrivee wrote:KC said earlier today that the Bulls are bracing for an offer from a Western Conference team.


Good glad things are finally moving if the offer is larger Bulls will do s sign a trade before they blow up and give LaVine the house


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I think the Western Conference team was the Kings and reports say they are "pivoting" to taking on contracts with their cap space. I think the Bulls are in the drivers seat here. Also, both holv and ralph have said that Lavine is going to resign. I trust their information.


I agree with you a lot is being written about nothing but speculation by writers offering opinions on what they think is going to happen I think the Bulls are just sitting and waiting on the market to show itself


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Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1939 » by dougthonus » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:37 pm

musiqsoulchild wrote:You are using extremes Doug. Nwaba and Max contract is illogical. Neither you or I will / should dwell on the illogical.

But Zach at 18 Million is not illogical. It passes the feasibility test.


You are missing the point entirely. I brought up this ridiculous circumstance because your logic was "you think the Bulls will do this, and thus that's what you want them to do" to highlight what are we really discussing?

What is the best thing?
or
What will the Bulls do?

You have conflated your logic around what the Bulls should do based around what you think they will do. I have stated what I think the best thing to do is regardless of what I think they will or won't do (though I happen to think they will do what I suggest too only because its so obviously the right thing IMO).

If we want to predict what they might do with LaVine or Portis rather than what the right thing to do with LaVine and Portis then it is a separate discussion. I care more about the first debate and will just wait and see on the second.
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Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Wiretap: Bulls Hope To Re-Sign Zach LaVine At $14M-$16M 

Post#1940 » by fleet » Fri Jul 6, 2018 3:39 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
fleet wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:Agreed. And there's just not a lot of money out there. The question is does that mean the front office should screw a player by offering them well under what their real market value is because they have the leverage of them being restricted during a year when no one has money?

I don't agree with the characterization of using leverage as screwing the player. It's a 2 way street. Agents and players understand this completely. No franchise operates on the generosity principle. Unless in an extreme circumstance where the player has a long record of accomplishment for the team. Safe to say, that is not Lavine at all.
So if the Bulls offered, say 8 mil, you're fine with that?

I remember the Bulls telling Scottie he might regret signing their offer, because he could likely get more if he waited. We all know he signed anyway, took the financial security. And he did regret it. The market is what it is. And Zach Lavine is no Scottie Pippen..

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