2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

[Frank Lee]

I doubt Chandler takes a buyout unless he has a deal lined up elsewhere. Besides, he has the sweetest part time job ever.

I also don’t see McD stretching any contracts as he’s made such a big deal about cap space for next yr. the dude already has his tux rented.... but no prom date in sight.

[nevetsov]

Yeah I think those expirings are too valuable to waste on anything on the market right now. K Love might be available, but is he enough to move the needle? His price will only come down as the season wears on.

They are only worth losing for a big fish, none of which are ever obtainable at this point in the season where every team is currently undefeated.

Consider this scenario - let's say a month in and we are playing above average ball - not lights out, but enough to have improved to a 10-12 seed. B Knight is playing good ball. The Hornets are flailing and not on pace for the playoffs. There are rumblings of AD being unhappy, and they consider the idea of blowing it up, but their demands are steep. Young talent, expirings, and you have to take Jrue Holiday's massive deal too (they only have those two on the books as massive salary beyond this year). Thats a total of $50m of salary going out.

We have $25m in expirings straight up in Chandler, Dudley and Daniels that we will not miss. Knight is a young, capable replacement for Holiday for $13m. Or they migh want Warren, who's close with Payton. And we can easily come up with $10m of young talent and picks to satisfy the remaining criteria.

We have all the pieces necessary to make a midseason trade with a desperate team.

EDIT: Forgot about Ariza's $15m expiring. Better make that $40m of expiring deals to play with.

[lilfishi22]

I think Reed and or Bridges can easily replicate what Daniels does on the offensive side of the ball. Defensively its not even a question. There's no real reason to keep Troy even though he's been a pretty good pick up for us.

I agree. He was barely above a positive offensively with his shooting last season 0.08 ORPM while he was a MASSIVE negative defensively -4.55DRPM which puts him at an overall RPM of -4.47 which puts him at 108 out of 111 SG's.

If Reed or Bridges can hit a combined 3 3PA a game at near .400, I think we've already replicated Daniels *only* contribution on the court. The only reason we've kept Daniels is because we were desperate for shooters and he's cheap.

[lilfishi22]

I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think it's been discussed in the past but his impact from a 'veteran leadership' standpoint appears to be minimal if not negligible.

[AtheJ415]

The Suns offseason is over imo unless Bev or Collison gets cut. We shouldn't be moving anything for a middling PG, so absent Lillard becoming available, I don't see any other moves. Reed is going to keep his spot, as is Shaq imo. The only other one that makes sense imo is if we can move Dudley or Chandler to free up a roster spot for Sauce, but that would require a team wanting Dudley or Chandler without giving us back multi-year salary, and that is probably not going to be the case.

[BobbieL]

I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think it's been discussed in the past but his impact from a 'veteran leadership' standpoint appears to be minimal if not negligible.

I think with Ariza and Corliss - there is veteran leadership for Ayton. Granted - if he is fully mentally on board - that’s different. I just wonder what team might want him. San Antonio maybe since they almost traded for him last year. Of course post buyout

[lilfishi22]

I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell

[SkinnyOMiller]

I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think it's been discussed in the past but his impact from a 'veteran leadership' standpoint appears to be minimal if not negligible.

The biggest thing is they have a center that historically has excelled in areas which are the biggest question marks for Ayton. Whatever he could pick up from Chandler would be well worth it, especially when it comes to blocking out, post defense and setting screens, he's a good guy to learn from and emulate for Ayton.

[starbosa10]

I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell

not to mention in a year or so Okobo/Shaq could greatly improve as well

[LukasBMW]

I doubt Chandler takes a buyout unless he has a deal lined up elsewhere. Besides, he has the sweetest part time job ever.

I also don’t see McD stretching any contracts as he’s made such a big deal about cap space for next yr. the dude already has his tux rented.... but no prom date in sight.

Chandler will be kept as a backup center and mentor to Ayton. Len was helpless and stupid. Ayton might actually learn a thing or two from Chandler.

At the all star break, I bet we give Chandler the option to stay or get a buyout. I think he stays if we are in the playoff hunt. I think he will be bought out if we suck so he can join a contender.

Unless of course we use his expiring deal as tradebait.

[sunwillrise0304]

no sense to let tyson go even through trade

We are bad for 3 seasons and tyson still stay and happy .
This season we are going to improve and his contract is expiring, tyson will be retained at vet min after this season.

the odd man out is daniel.

[bigfoot]

Probably more like - - - Hey Koko, check out D'Antoni. Do u see he got to the Western Finals w/ Ariza (6-8) and Tucker (6-6) as their forwards? Watcha think --- we can roll out two 6-8 guys in Warren n Ariza. The rest is history.....and will prove to be a mistake when three weeks in Ariza decides he's not suited to play frontcourt......afterall, he's a career wingman. Not a frontcourt player.

Doesn't everybody remember the JJ issue at start of last season? They played him at PF guarding Blake and Blake destroyed him. And JJ went in locker room and told reporters he hates playing PF and don't wanna be guarding big ass men like that. I don't blame him.

Teams need TWO bigs on the floor at all times. I'm old school. Even the Warriors rolled out McGee/Green as starters. And now they rolling out Boogie/Green. Pelicans same w/ Boogie/AD and now Randle/AD. Or Celtics' deep run with Horford/Baynes. Or Blake/Drummond. Or Pau/LaMarcus. Or Kanter/Porzingis or Jokic/Millsap. The list goes on and on and on w/ practically every NBA team except Suns and Rockets ---- and guess what both have Phx affiliations (tucker, d'antoni). Clearly it's a stupid valley desert mentality to play small ball and that goes nowhere. Period. No ifs or buts.

The whole spill about "u don't need bigs" is a giant myth. No team goes on to win consistently without 2 bigs on the floor at most times. And Suns will really make Ayton's job much harder by making him the only big on the floor. You've got a SG playing effing PF and you got a rookie Center who you're going to rely on 99% of the time. Not gonna work. Disaster waiting to happen.

Let's make it simple for you then. Tell us what big man we could have gotten in free agency this offseason that played defense and could hit the three ball. Don't throw out any RFAs (e.g., Gordon) because they would have been matched. Just tell us who (and it needs to be a PF) we would have had a reasonable chance of attracting.

1. I don't kno why all of a sudden everybody says u need a big man to hit three pointers. Is this to make the playoffs? So Ariza signing is so u can have a wing play PF so u can win games???????

2. The answer to your question on who I would sign instead: NONE. NOBODY.

You got Chriss/Bender to deal with right now. If they on the team, they play PF. Period. No matter how awful they are. It's not like you went into offseason thinking you're going to win the West. It's not like you went into signing Ariza into thinking you're going to propel yourself into the playoffs. The Ariza signing is a complete head scratcher of a move. It's redundant and he is only making things more complicated for Warren/Jackson/Bridges....Not to mention stunting their minutes and growth esp for JJ and Bridges.

The answer to your question is nobody. You play PF with Bender and Chriss and you got nothing to lose cause u have no winning expectations this season. You showcase them and hope and pray you can unload them via trade for another PF (coupled w/ Chandler expiring or something like that). That's the way you would get yourself a PF. Not the free agent market.

With the Ariza signing, I don't understand what you're trying to do. Win? Have a wing play PF to teach something to the young guys? Try to make the playoffs w/ small ball? But wait...He's only 1 year deal so it's not long term plans for the Suns. So totally confused.

But ------ if you still not satisfied w/ my answer, then u can throw half the money (say around 6-10 million) on guys like Ed Davis, E Illyasova, N Bjeilica, and Montrez Harrell who's still available and is a stud of a power forward......Heck of a player that is 500x better than Chriss and Bender cause he has drive, will, and passion on the court and still not signed.

....Gonna love watching Suns vs practically any team this year when there's a screen and players switch and you're left screaming at the TV cause Ariza is left to guard Anthony Davis or Blake or Drummond on the switch and they just dunk over em. Gonna be one crazy season of shouting at the TV......

The answer to #1 is very simple if you followed the Suns last season. We had the worst defense and worst three point shooting in the league. To compete you need a decent defense and the ability to hit three pointers. We need at least three starters who can hit the three ball preferably four plus they need to play defense. We drafted Ayton but its questionable if he can hit the three. One of JJ or Warren is probably the starting SF and neither can't hit the three. So we need a PG, SG, and PF who can hit the three. Knight, Booker, and a PF. Bender and Chriss are still unreliable players.

So the second point is everyone and I mean everyone (except maybe you) wants to see the Suns win next year. Booker wants to win, Koko want's to win, McD wants to win, and the fans want to win. Because Chris and Bender are still questionable we can't count on them to help win. So we needed a PF who can play D and hit the 3. McD's stated objective was to add shooting to the team and winning veteran players, coaches, and draft picks. Ariza, Bridges, Koko, and the assistants fit that priority. Ariza has a ring, Koko has ring, several of the coaches have rings, and Bridges has two NCAA championships under his belt. McD brought in character people to help move from a losing environment to a winning environment

In regards to your complaint about Ariza getting switched onto Davis or Blake or Drummond. He had that issue last year with Houston and did fine. Also, Drummond and Davis and Blake will have to cover Ariza on the three point line sacrificing their rebounding abilities. Remember the post up is the least efficient shot in the NBA while the corner three, Ariza's speciality is the most efficient. Roughly 1.27 points per corner three point shot versus .78 per post up. I'll take Ariza all day shooting threes and getting posted up by Drummond, Blake, or Davis. You see Davis is about .98 points per post up and he is one of the best in the league. So over 10 post ups Davis gets 9.8 points while Ariza on 10 corner three pointers nets 12.7 points. That is why Ariza as PF makes sense.

[bigfoot]

The Suns offseason is over imo unless Bev or Collison gets cut. We shouldn't be moving anything for a middling PG, so absent Lillard becoming available, I don't see any other moves. Reed is going to keep his spot, as is Shaq imo. The only other one that makes sense imo is if we can move Dudley or Chandler to free up a roster spot for Sauce, but that would require a team wanting Dudley or Chandler without giving us back multi-year salary, and that is probably not going to be the case.

Moving Dudley or Chandler would be tough as you suggest. However, Daniels might be moveable. Low cost, last year of contract, good three point shooter, crappy defender. His three point shooting is tops. Maybe Koko can improve his defense but I'd rather see Reed and Bridges get his time. He's the one I would want to move for Sauce.

[TeamTragic]

Smart S&T. Grizzlies/Nets. I would say that Ainge doesn't match.

KAT negotiating his contract with the Wolves. Any chance it falls through and we sign him next season?

[lilfishi22]

I'm all about keeping Chandler around. I think a year of Ayton learning from him and working with him everyday in practice would be invaluable. Chandler is a pro's pro, he was a very good center in this league for a long time and his strengths matchup well with a lot of Ayton's weaknesses. I think it would be tremendous to have such an accomplished veteran to learn from.

I think it's been discussed in the past but his impact from a 'veteran leadership' standpoint appears to be minimal if not negligible.

The biggest thing is they have a center that historically has excelled in areas which are the biggest question marks for Ayton. Whatever he could pick up from Chandler would be well worth it, especially when it comes to blocking out, post defense and setting screens, he's a good guy to learn from and emulate for Ayton.

Are you suggesting we keep him around after his contract is over or just for this season?

I don't mind keeping him around if there's no takers for his expiring deal but I'm for sure not holding out of any trade talks because of his so-called veteran leadership.

[TOO]

Smart S&T. Grizzlies/Nets. I would say that Ainge doesn't match.

KAT negotiating his contract with the Wolves. Any chance it falls through and we sign him next season?

Does 0% count?

[PhxLax]

I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell

RONDO. I'll still take it to my grave that Rondo is by far the best (and most underrated) PG the NBA had to offer w/ regards to the free agent class of 2018 and 2019. Nobody comes close to Rondo's smarts, ability to read offense, and ability to defend. A true (arrogant) champ.

If I were GM, I would have throw all the money in the world to Rondo for many years to come. But I'm sure many would say you glad I'm not the GM

[PhxLax]

Let's make it simple for you then. Tell us what big man we could have gotten in free agency this offseason that played defense and could hit the three ball. Don't throw out any RFAs (e.g., Gordon) because they would have been matched. Just tell us who (and it needs to be a PF) we would have had a reasonable chance of attracting.

1. I don't kno why all of a sudden everybody says u need a big man to hit three pointers. Is this to make the playoffs? So Ariza signing is so u can have a wing play PF so u can win games???????

2. The answer to your question on who I would sign instead: NONE. NOBODY.

You got Chriss/Bender to deal with right now. If they on the team, they play PF. Period. No matter how awful they are. It's not like you went into offseason thinking you're going to win the West. It's not like you went into signing Ariza into thinking you're going to propel yourself into the playoffs. The Ariza signing is a complete head scratcher of a move. It's redundant and he is only making things more complicated for Warren/Jackson/Bridges....Not to mention stunting their minutes and growth esp for JJ and Bridges.

The answer to your question is nobody. You play PF with Bender and Chriss and you got nothing to lose cause u have no winning expectations this season. You showcase them and hope and pray you can unload them via trade for another PF (coupled w/ Chandler expiring or something like that). That's the way you would get yourself a PF. Not the free agent market.

With the Ariza signing, I don't understand what you're trying to do. Win? Have a wing play PF to teach something to the young guys? Try to make the playoffs w/ small ball? But wait...He's only 1 year deal so it's not long term plans for the Suns. So totally confused.

But ------ if you still not satisfied w/ my answer, then u can throw half the money (say around 6-10 million) on guys like Ed Davis, E Illyasova, N Bjeilica, and Montrez Harrell who's still available and is a stud of a power forward......Heck of a player that is 500x better than Chriss and Bender cause he has drive, will, and passion on the court and still not signed.

....Gonna love watching Suns vs practically any team this year when there's a screen and players switch and you're left screaming at the TV cause Ariza is left to guard Anthony Davis or Blake or Drummond on the switch and they just dunk over em. Gonna be one crazy season of shouting at the TV......

The answer to #1 is very simple if you followed the Suns last season. We had the worst defense and worst three point shooting in the league. To compete you need a decent defense and the ability to hit three pointers. We need at least three starters who can hit the three ball preferably four plus they need to play defense. We drafted Ayton but its questionable if he can hit the three. One of JJ or Warren is probably the starting SF and neither can't hit the three. So we need a PG, SG, and PF who can hit the three. Knight, Booker, and a PF. Bender and Chriss are still unreliable players.

So the second point is everyone and I mean everyone (except maybe you) wants to see the Suns win next year. Booker wants to win, Koko want's to win, McD wants to win, and the fans want to win. Because Chris and Bender are still questionable we can't count on them to help win. So we needed a PF who can play D and hit the 3. McD's stated objective was to add shooting to the team and winning veteran players, coaches, and draft picks. Ariza, Bridges, Koko, and the assistants fit that priority. Ariza has a ring, Koko has ring, several of the coaches have rings, and Bridges has two NCAA championships under his belt. McD brought in character people to help move from a losing environment to a winning environment

In regards to your complaint about Ariza getting switched onto Davis or Blake or Drummond. He had that issue last year with Houston and did fine. Also, Drummond and Davis and Blake will have to cover Ariza on the three point line sacrificing their rebounding abilities. Remember the post up is the least efficient shot in the NBA while the corner three, Ariza's speciality is the most efficient. Roughly 1.27 points per corner three point shot versus .78 per post up. I'll take Ariza all day shooting threes and getting posted up by Drummond, Blake, or Davis. You see Davis is about .98 points per post up and he is one of the best in the league. So over 10 post ups Davis gets 9.8 points while Ariza on 10 corner three pointers nets 12.7 points. That is why Ariza as PF makes sense.

Save this so we can re-visit this debate 3 months into the season around December to see who is right vs wrong.

[AtheJ415]

I think people need to understand that it's not always possible and it's very much the norm for teams to take a number of seasons to find their starting (insert position) going forward that makes sense for the team from an age, talent and production standpoint.

This crop of free agent PG's has been pretty poor and those who are good were either going to be very expensive to sign (FVV) or their team are still holding onto them (Pat Bev, Collison, Lin). To just try and fill that hole with with an average PG who you have to overpay for is anti-intellectual. The Knight/Okobo/Shaq PG rotation isn't great, no one is arguing it's going to do wonders for us but to pay a guy like Avery Bradley 12m a year, Smart 12-15m a year or overpay FVV with a backloaded balloon contract would hurt us more than it would help us.

Next season there's going to be guys like
Rubio
Lin
Walker
Collison
Joseph
Teodosic
Bev
DLo
Rozier
Delon Wright
Tyus Jones
Brogdon
TJ McConnell
Dinwiddie.

It's a lot better class than this offseasons PG class
Exum
FVV
Parker
Rondo
Payton
MCW
IT
Mack
Smart
Jack
Napier
Larkin
Ty Lawson
Ferrell

RONDO. I'll still take it to my grave that Rondo is by far the best (and most underrated) PG the NBA had to offer w/ regards to the free agent class of 2018 and 2019. Nobody comes close to Rondo's smarts, ability to read offense, and ability to defend. A true (arrogant) champ.

If I were GM, I would have throw all the money in the world to Rondo for many years to come. But I'm sure many would say you glad I'm not the GM

If our goal was to set a new NBA record in shooting inability, combined with having the most unhealthy locker room cancer of the past 15 years to infect the youngsters, then yes, Rondo should be the guy. Rondo thinks he understands Xs and Os better than Rick Carlisle, and the team hated him so much that they booted him mid-series with no other playable PG on the roster and the rest of the roster voted him out of getting a share of the playoff salary. He then went to Sac and did the same thing. Not a single of the other 4 Celtics starters seem to have a good thing to say about him.

The 1 thing Phx seems to have going for it right now is locker room chemistry. Book, Jackson, etc. all like each other. They respect Tyson. They respect Igor. You want to light that on fire by bringing in a guy who has proven he will openly reject the coach's gameplan and stat hunt at the expense of his teammates?

I'd rather sign Marcus Smart to the super max. That's how awful that idea is.

[AtheJ415]

As for the other debate, you can go small at the 4 in today's league. Often you have to by necessity. This is particularly true if we're going to develop Ayton as a true 5 manning the interior. That said, while Ayton's focus this year should be almost all on defense, I would like to see him start to work on his 3 point shot in meaningless setting like SL in spurts. Ultimately, he has the touch to do it, and if we have that threat as a pop man from the 3 point line off the PnR to counter his rim runs, it will make the offense a lot better. Particularly with the off ball dives that can flood the paint, which is where Jackson and Warren excel.