Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[gtn130]

I swear people are more interested in watching us blow it up and play for lottery balls than trying to compete.

Trading Beal for Kawhi would have effectively done that. Kawhi was never going to put on a Wizards uniform. We'd end up selling Kawhi to LA for peanuts on the dollar.

This isn't true, and he'll play for Toronto. In order for him to sit out the year with an injury, he needs to actually substantiate that injury. All of this stuff is codified in the CBA, and he'll be in breach of contract if he doesn't have an observable injury preventing him from playing. In the CBA it's called a Fitness-to-Play Panel that makes that determination. He could pull it off with the Spurs because they thought he was acting in good faith, and didn't want to hurt their long term relationship.

As it applies to the Wizards, yeah I would rather the Wizards blow it up then watch EG try and fail miserably every season to improve this capped out mediocre team. The Wizards are Wall losing a half step away from being Detroit.

[Kanyewest]

Do you guys really want a guy who quit on the best organization? A guy who is probably not the same as before? A guy who sat out that long for a hip bruise? This guy is as mentally weak as they come. Absolute pathetic behavior.

Yes.

I believe one of the last guys who was a cancer to that organization was Dennis Rodman.

[Dark Faze]

I swear people are more interested in watching us blow it up and play for lottery balls than trying to compete.

Trading Beal for Kawhi would have effectively done that. Kawhi was never going to put on a Wizards uniform. We'd end up selling Kawhi to LA for peanuts on the dollar.

Blah. His chances of staying with Toronto or Washington for that matter aren't insignificant. Once you move to a place, get acclimated and forge new bonds there, fight with a team and develop a sense of loyalty, have that team be able to offer you more money, and have an entire city do everything they can to whoo you for an entire 8 months...things change. If he were in DC he'd be doing a lot of winning and competing for an ECF. Similarly he'll do the same for Toronto.

With that said, I like the current roster well enough. If everything goes perfectly, I think we can surprise a team to make the ECF, if things turn out averagely, then another second round exit, if it goes badly, first round exit.

[MVPofDC]

I have a hard time believing, on a team with not one but two All Stars, that our best player is neither one of them.

[payitforward]

Beal & DeRozan are about the same in value except for Beal being so much younger -- which w/o question adds to Beal's value.

I don't think this is true when you consider fit and versatility. Not many teams are looking for a DeRozan whereas nearly every team can easily add Beal to their roster since he's much better off ball, won't have to be the focal point of the offense and will be improving floor spacing for his team. There will always be an effectively larger market for someone like Beal than DeRozan despite their isolated values as basketball players being similar.

You are speculating -- but how could you or anyone do otherwise unless the 2 are traded one for the other & we see whether & what is added to which side of the trade.

Still, maybe you are right -- in the sense of your last sentence which could also be about other players. But, really, I just meant they are about equally productive players.

[payitforward]

WE ARE NOT SUBPAR BECAUSE OF OTTO PORTER

he is worth every single penny of that max deal. Basketball is not all about points per game and flashy highlights. Otto Porter is ... basically top 20 in the NBA for every advanced stat known to man. He's also only 24 years old.

He is EXACTLY what you want in a basketball player. ...

I often disagree with Nat (i.e. "often" = when he's wrong ), but he is 1000% right in this case. Otto Porter is the best player on the Washington Wizards. By a fair amount.

That doesn't mean he's the equal of Kawhi Leonard at his peak. But, trading him for an expiring Kawhi who is coming off injury would be an act of self-destruction beyond even what Ernie is foolish enough to contemplate.

The notion of adding a R1 pick & god knows what else is so off the wall that it indicates someone who really hasn't thought this through -- to put it nicely.

Now... this is all historical given Toronto's trade for Leonard. I haven't looked at that yet; I don't know what is involved in this move. But, I'm thankful that it means we won't be sending out our best player.

Note that I'd have been more than happy to trade Wall for Leonard. Just because Wall's Super Max hamstrings us so badly going forward.

You guys put way too much stock in advanced metrics.

Actually, I don't put any stock in "advanced metrics." I put stock in numbers I understand & which contribute to winning/losing basketball games in ways that can be demonstrated.

I'd say it's you who might be putting too much stock in "advanced metrics" -- e.g. things like "can create his own shot," which is a characterization of a very complex combination of factors that are almost always beyond being understood quantitatively -- so that they can't be compared in one player or another as to how they affect games.

For example, LeBron James can "create his own shot." No problem. But I also read people saying Austin Rivers can "create his own shot." LeBron James is a great player. Austin Rivers is a lousy player.

Of course you may have been talking about something altogether different! So... why am I still typing?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Nonsense. If we're ignoring contracts, and strictly looking to be the best we can be. It's either Beal or Porter getting shipped out. Preferably Beal.

why would we ever "ignore contracts"? you think we're beating GS in 2018-2019?? and even then, your statement is pretty debatable. I 100% feel that Otto Porter is more important to this team than Wall. He's our best player.

I'm just talking about Xs and Os dude. Yes, ignoring contracts. Nobody's beating G-State now or anytime in the near future. Otto Porter is our most efficient player. He doesn't move the needle though. He's too passive. He doesn't take over games. I get it. You don't like John Wall, but he's our best player.

He's not a superstar, but he's paid as if he is one.

[JWizmentality]

why would we ever "ignore contracts"? you think we're beating GS in 2018-2019?? and even then, your statement is pretty debatable. I 100% feel that Otto Porter is more important to this team than Wall. He's our best player.

I'm just talking about Xs and Os dude. Yes, ignoring contracts. Nobody's beating G-State now or anytime in the near future. Otto Porter is our most efficient player. He doesn't move the needle though. He's too passive. He doesn't take over games. I get it. You don't like John Wall, but he's our best player.

He's not a superstar, but he's paid as if he is one.

Otto Porter's not an Allstar, but he's paid as if he's one. I can do this tit for tat game all day bruh.

[JWizmentality]

I often disagree with Nat (i.e. "often" = when he's wrong ), but he is 1000% right in this case. Otto Porter is the best player on the Washington Wizards. By a fair amount.

That doesn't mean he's the equal of Kawhi Leonard at his peak. But, trading him for an expiring Kawhi who is coming off injury would be an act of self-destruction beyond even what Ernie is foolish enough to contemplate.

The notion of adding a R1 pick & god knows what else is so off the wall that it indicates someone who really hasn't thought this through -- to put it nicely.

Now... this is all historical given Toronto's trade for Leonard. I haven't looked at that yet; I don't know what is involved in this move. But, I'm thankful that it means we won't be sending out our best player.

Note that I'd have been more than happy to trade Wall for Leonard. Just because Wall's Super Max hamstrings us so badly going forward.

You guys put way too much stock in advanced metrics.

Actually, I don't put any stock in "advanced metrics." I put stock in numbers I understand & which contribute to winning/losing basketball games in ways that can be demonstrated.

I'd say it's you who might be putting too much stock in "advanced metrics" -- e.g. things like "can create his own shot," which is a characterization of a very complex combination of factors that are almost always beyond being understood quantitatively -- so that they can't be compared in one player or another as to how they affect games.

For example, LeBron James can "create his own shot." No problem. But I also read people saying Austin Rivers can "create his own shot." LeBron James is a great player. Austin Rivers is a lousy player.

Of course you may have been talking about something altogether different! So... why am I still typing?

I'm a simpleton dude. I'm not that deep. Look, Wall is an amazing talent but he's inefficient and does things here that all drive us nuts. Otto Porter is a good player that does many things well but nearly as often as he should. He has the potential to be our best player but he doesn't have the drive. It's why you'll sometimes get goose egg games from him as if he never played at all. Even some of Wall's worst games, you look at the boxscore afterwards and you wouldn't know he played poorly cause he'll still gives you the effort.

[deneem4]

I often disagree with Nat (i.e. "often" = when he's wrong ), but he is 1000% right in this case. Otto Porter is the best player on the Washington Wizards. By a fair amount.

That doesn't mean he's the equal of Kawhi Leonard at his peak. But, trading him for an expiring Kawhi who is coming off injury would be an act of self-destruction beyond even what Ernie is foolish enough to contemplate.

The notion of adding a R1 pick & god knows what else is so off the wall that it indicates someone who really hasn't thought this through -- to put it nicely.

Now... this is all historical given Toronto's trade for Leonard. I haven't looked at that yet; I don't know what is involved in this move. But, I'm thankful that it means we won't be sending out our best player.

Note that I'd have been more than happy to trade Wall for Leonard. Just because Wall's Super Max hamstrings us so badly going forward.

You guys put way too much stock in advanced metrics.

Actually, I don't put any stock in "advanced metrics." I put stock in numbers I understand & which contribute to winning/losing basketball games in ways that can be demonstrated.

I'd say it's you who might be putting too much stock in "advanced metrics" -- e.g. things like "can create his own shot," which is a characterization of a very complex combination of factors that are almost always beyond being understood quantitatively -- so that they can't be compared in one player or another as to how they affect games.

For example, LeBron James can "create his own shot." No problem. But I also read people saying Austin Rivers can "create his own shot." LeBron James is a great player. Austin Rivers is a lousy player.

Of course you may have been talking about something altogether different! So... why am I still typing?

Aggressiveness and confidence is what otto porter is mising...
Great players always have those traits...otto lacks that which makes him somewhat subpar with his skillset
If otto had kelly mindset he would be the best player in the east
If kelly had otto skill set he would be the

Basketball is mental as well and otto lacks heavy in that department

[deneem4]

and im not at all worried bout toronto kwahi...hes not lebron he became great within a well organize d machine and alltime great coach as well as players....heck Isaiah thomas was almost an mvp and a rookie when head to head with lebron under brad stevens...
Coaches matter...i actually see derozan having a better year than kwahi next year individual wise

[payitforward]

I have a hard time believing, on a team with not one but two All Stars, that our best player is neither one of them.

Well, if you judge how good a player is by what he has been awarded then I can see why.

[payitforward]

Aggressiveness and confidence is what otto porter is missing...
Great players always have those traits...otto lacks that which makes him somewhat subpar with his skillset
If otto had kelly mindset he would be the best player in the east
If kelly had otto skill set he would be the

Basketball is mental as well and otto lacks heavy in that department

But there are plenty of players with tremendous aggressiveness & confidence who are no good at all. Thinking you are as good as Michael Jordan is not the same as being as good as Michael Jordan -- & in fact it can make you worse.

Austin Rivers would be the textbook example of that. He has all that kind of "mental" stuff you point at, but he's a terrible player.

Moreover, there's also a natural tendency to under-estimate guys who aren't flashy; that too is part of what I think you are doing w/ Porter.

A guy who executes a thunderous dunk & then flexes his upper body muscles & glares at his opponent has just scored 2 points. Period.

A guy who scores 6 more points than a teammate in a game isn't better than that teammate if it took 8 more shots to get those the points. More importantly, shooting .375 (3 for 8) helps your team lose not win.

Finally, a lot of things look impressive but mean very little. You know who led the Wizards in blocked shots per 40 minutes last year? Chris McCullough. You know who came in 2d to Chris? Jason Smith.

[MVPofDC]

I have a hard time believing, on a team with not one but two All Stars, that our best player is neither one of them.

Well, if you judge how good a player is by what he has been awarded then I can see why.

I can agree with this logic but to a point.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm just talking about Xs and Os dude. Yes, ignoring contracts. Nobody's beating G-State now or anytime in the near future. Otto Porter is our most efficient player. He doesn't move the needle though. He's too passive. He doesn't take over games. I get it. You don't like John Wall, but he's our best player.

He's not a superstar, but he's paid as if he is one.

Otto Porter's not an Allstar, but he's paid as if he's one. I can do this tit for tat game all day bruh.

It's too easy.

Scott Brooks is paid as if he's a good coach.

Ernie Grunfeld? Paid as if he's a GM. Dude could just as well throw darts at random freaking names at free agency and draft time. He's like a bad teacher or a professor with tenure. He's also sorta family wrt to the owner. He's getting paid for life.

Ted Leonsis? He's rolling in profits along with all the other owners, as if he gives a damn about the Wizards.

[NatP4]

Yo why is realgm Mobile page so garbage

[deneem4]

Aggressiveness and confidence is what otto porter is missing...
Great players always have those traits...otto lacks that which makes him somewhat subpar with his skillset
If otto had kelly mindset he would be the best player in the east
If kelly had otto skill set he would be the

Basketball is mental as well and otto lacks heavy in that department

But there are plenty of players with tremendous aggressiveness & confidence who are no good at all. Thinking you are as good as Michael Jordan is not the same as being as good as Michael Jordan -- & in fact it can make you worse.

Austin Rivers would be the textbook example of that. He has all that kind of "mental" stuff you point at, but he's a terrible player.

Moreover, there's also a natural tendency to under-estimate guys who aren't flashy; that too is part of what I think you are doing w/ Porter.

A guy who executes a thunderous dunk & then flexes his upper body muscles & glares at his opponent has just scored 2 points. Period.

A guy who scores 6 more points than a teammate in a game isn't better than that teammate if it took 8 more shots to get those the points. More importantly, shooting .375 (3 for 8) helps your team lose not win.

Finally, a lot of things look impressive but mean very little. You know who led the Wizards in blocked shots per 40 minutes last year? Chris McCullough. You know who came in 2d to Chris? Jason Smith.

I think u missed the point...
That’s y I used kelly as an example...
Otto isn’t aggressive and it’s detrimental to the team...he plays like a Kyle Korver when he have a far more versatile skill set...
He doesn’t take advantage of mismatches
Doesn’t attack an open lane frequently enough
If he isn’t open he won’t shoot or try to make a move he jus pass it back..
Yea it’s good to be mindful but sometimes u have to take a chance on yourself and believe u can score

[verbal8]

I have a hard time believing, on a team with not one but two All Stars, that our best player is neither one of them.

All-Stars - Counting stats
Winning Players - Efficiency

[verbal8]

I swear people are more interested in watching us blow it up and play for lottery balls than trying to compete.

Trading Beal for Kawhi would have effectively done that. Kawhi was never going to put on a Wizards uniform. We'd end up selling Kawhi to LA for peanuts on the dollar.

For the Wizards I think Porter is more valuable than Leonard(with injury and FA risks). I think Beal is about equal value, but getting Leonard would definitely be the riskier path.

The Wall contract essentially has the Wizards locked into a win-now high risk approach. If Leonard bolts it is just a one year swing for the fences scenario. If Leonard resigns, Wall and Leonard would likely have similar peak/declines that would be the contender window for the Wizards.

Without a talent upgrade the Wizards are a bottom of the play-off seed team at best for the remainder of Wall's contract.

[MVPofDC]

I have a hard time believing, on a team with not one but two All Stars, that our best player is neither one of them.

All-Stars - Counting stats
Winning Players - Efficiency

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. In terms of efficiency, if you're looking at PER, the top 10 is filled with All Stars: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics. John Wall makes an appearance at #49, followed by Beal #56 and Otto #57.