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Vegas over/under win totals

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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#21 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:54 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:If Booker played 20 of the 29 games he sat out on, we may have won another another 8-10? So that's already close to 30 wins alone on that sad team we put on the floor last season. With Ayton, more shooting from Ariza and Bridges (hopefully) and some more improvement from our young guys, I think we have a floor of 30 wins. Add in some big Booker games and the odd game where Bender puts on his big boy pants, that's another 5, maybe 8 wins.

So I'm still sticking to 35 wins but with a team with this much potential but still relative lacking in experience, the win deviation could easily be in the 10 game range. 45 wins isn't out of the question, but neither is 25, especially if we fall down hard because of the lack of talent from a playmaking standpoint and of course, injuries


Booker would have been good for 10 more wins if he played 20 more games? No, maybe a handful. We had a pretty brutal schedule to in. In the last 13 games he DID play, we won 1 game, against Memphis. In the 6 before that which he played, we won one against Dallas.

Our schedule was extremely tough down the stretch when he was out as well....most all against really good teams fighting for the playoffs.

I think we can improve a lot. I think mid 30s is do-able, and with Igor and our added shooting, defense, and Ayton, I could almost see anything....considering I watched that Hornacek coached team without a lot of talent win 48. Thinking of what Igor did with Slovenia, if things go just right, it wouldn't shock me if we were one of those final teams fighting for the playoffs either. This is one offseason it's tough to make a prediction...I'd probably stick with mid 30s but getting more than that won't surprise me at all.

I don't mean those exact games he sat out last season, we could've won half of those. I mean in any random 20 game stretch, we could have been good for 8-10 wins had he played and of course, if we weren't so intent on tanking. Last season whether he played or not, we were just a bad/good tanking team and we would've lost a lot of games anyway. I'm using last season's performance to project this upcoming season's W/L's.

What my point is that, with a poor tanking-minded team and him having played only 54 games, we were a 21 win team. Had we not tried to tank in a lot of games and had he played more, we probably come closer to 30 wins than low 20's. Happy to agree to disagree on this point but I'm using this as my basis for next season's projections. With the team we now have, a better coach, better system and internal improvements, a near 15-win improvement is what I'm projecting. More so than the talent we have on board, I do think that the coaching change will have the biggest impact on W's this season. While we have gotten better talent-wise, I think guys like Ayton, Bridges and even the 2-3 season 'vets' aren't necessarily ready to consistently contribute but coaching will be the difference maker, if Koko produces as advertised.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#22 » by Walt_Uoob » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:02 am

Wow, it's eye-opening to realize that even though we should be much improved next year, it's still hard to come up with many teams we'll be better than. We're still a bottom-10 team and bottom-3ish in the West. I'm glad to have resolved that cognitive dissonance early.

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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#23 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:09 am

Walt_Uoob wrote:Wow, it's eye-opening to realize that even though we should be much improved next year, it's still hard to come up with many teams we'll be better than. We're still a bottom-10 team and bottom-3ish in the West. I'm glad to have resolved that cognitive dissonance early.

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Yeah, the Kings are likely the only given at the bottom of the standings. I think the Grizzlies will do better than the numbers here. We may be better than them, but not sure...likely depends on their health...and then Dallas could be much improved since they actually added a defensive vet who has been All Defensive first team twice and should finish a lot of lobs from DSJr and Doncic....and then of course Doncic.
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Re: RE: Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#24 » by Walt_Uoob » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:24 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Walt_Uoob wrote:Wow, it's eye-opening to realize that even though we should be much improved next year, it's still hard to come up with many teams we'll be better than. We're still a bottom-10 team and bottom-3ish in the West. I'm glad to have resolved that cognitive dissonance early.

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Yeah, the Kings are likely the only given at the bottom of the standings. I think the Grizzlies will do better than the numbers here. We may be better than them, but not sure...likely depends on their health...and then Dallas could be much improved since they actually added a defensive vet who has been All Defensive first team twice and should finish a lot of lobs from DSJr and Doncic....and then of course Doncic.
Agreed. I think we finish better than the Kings, Hawks, Nets, and probably Magic and Knicks. Then we're in a tier with Mavs, Bulls, and a couple others. Clippers seem to have less talent but way more experience and good depth. Grizzlies I think will be back to being a solid team.

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Re: RE: Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#25 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:30 am

Walt_Uoob wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Walt_Uoob wrote:Wow, it's eye-opening to realize that even though we should be much improved next year, it's still hard to come up with many teams we'll be better than. We're still a bottom-10 team and bottom-3ish in the West. I'm glad to have resolved that cognitive dissonance early.

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Yeah, the Kings are likely the only given at the bottom of the standings. I think the Grizzlies will do better than the numbers here. We may be better than them, but not sure...likely depends on their health...and then Dallas could be much improved since they actually added a defensive vet who has been All Defensive first team twice and should finish a lot of lobs from DSJr and Doncic....and then of course Doncic.
Agreed. I think we finish better than the Kings, Hawks, Nets, and probably Magic and Knicks. Then we're in a tier with Mavs, Bulls, and a couple others. Clippers seem to have less talent but way more experience and good depth. Grizzlies I think will be back to being a solid team.

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Yeah, for awhile I thought the Clippers would be bad..but then I remembered they still had a bunch of vets...some depends on health...but Harris is solid as is Lou Williams, and then if Gallinari, Bradley, Beverley, Teodosic, Boban, Dekker are healthy they can play and then they added Mbah Moute, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander and Jerome Robinson...a solid defensive wing and two lotto picks.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#26 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:30 am

Jacob Goldstein not coming out with good predictions for the Suns as usual...

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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#27 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:37 am

So we're projected to have not even have a 1 game improvement in 2019....?
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#28 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:42 am

lilfishi22 wrote:So we're projected to have not even have a 1 game improvement in 2019....?


I haven't asked him but my guess would be that we would be improved as a team but the other teams near the bottom would be healthy and improved as well...then you have a team like the Lakers adding a big difference maker.

But it largely is reliant on what guys have done so far, so it won't project Jackson well and likely won't have great projections for any rookies so it might be hard for a simulation tool to improve us much relatively speaking.

He probably says in comments where he thinks the model is off....though I haven't looked at any yet.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#29 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:47 am

The only way we don't see a more meaningful improvement is if Ayton doesn't impact that game as advertised.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#30 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:58 am

Yeah, I expect around our over/under total, and I think it could be over if things click. Just a very tough conference and of course the big question at PG.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#31 » by bwgood77 » Fri Aug 3, 2018 6:30 pm

Projected NBA win totals, playoff standings for all 30 teams in 2018-19
by Kevin Pelton on http://www.espn.com/nba

Spoiler:
Let's take a first look at how the 2018-19 NBA season might play out after a busy offseason highlighted by LeBron James' move from the Cleveland Cavaliers to the Los Angeles Lakers.

For the past three seasons, we've been using ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) along with a projection of games played and my best guess at playing time to forecast the upcoming NBA campaign. After unusually large errors in last season's projections for the Boston Celtics, Indiana Pacers and Toronto Raptors, I've made a couple of changes to the process.

As Andrew Johnson recently explored on Nylon Calculus, players who change teams tend to see their RPM decline, particularly if they rate far better than average offensively, and they are now projected separately from players who stay on the same team. Additionally, I redid the way players without RPM projections are handled using their outlook from my SCHOENE player projection system, improving the accuracy of their defensive ratings. The changes improved how well RPM projections retrodicted past seasons using actual minutes played, both in and out of sample.

Inevitably, the unpredictable nature of injuries, midseason trades, randomness and factors that can't be quantified by RPM mean some teams will exceed or fall short of their projections. Nonetheless, they give us an early guideline of what to expect from the upcoming season, so let's take a look conference-by-conference.

Western Conference
1. Golden State Warriors
Projected wins: 58.6

The Warriors ended up falling short of last season's expected 62.6 wins, largely because of injuries. Though Golden State may be healthier this season, aging and regression to the mean drop the Warriors' projection to about where they ended in 2017-18 (58 wins) -- though it's still 3.5 wins ahead of any other team.

2. Utah Jazz
Projected wins: 53.4

In a conference that no longer appears to have a second elite team, Utah moves up despite -- or perhaps in part because of -- a relatively quiet offseason. With Rudy Gobert in the lineup, the Jazz won at a 54-win clip in 2017-18, so it's reasonable to think they can maintain that pace this season.

3. Houston Rockets
Projected wins: 53.0

Even if the Rockets had brought everyone back this offseason, their RPM projection would likely have come in well south of last season's 65 wins, which slightly exceeded their point differential (typical of a 61-win team). Factor in the downgrade from Trevor Ariza (minus-1.2 projected RPM) and Luc Mbah a Moute (minus-0.1) to Carmelo Anthony (minus-1.6, and reportedly on his way to Houston) and James Ennis (minus-1.7), and Houston drops slightly behind Utah in terms of projected average wins.

4. Denver Nuggets
Projected wins: 50.5

Though they fell just short of the postseason, the Nuggets won 46 games with newcomer Paul Millsap (38 games) playing less than half their games. Add in the development of young talent and possible addition by subtraction with the Wilson Chandler trade, and Denver is a sleeper to contend for home-court advantage in the opening round.

5. Minnesota Timberwolves
Projected wins: 49.6

Having beaten out the Nuggets for the last playoff spot in the West, the Timberwolves also figure to improve by virtue of better health after going 10-13 in the 23 games Jimmy Butler missed.

6. Oklahoma City Thunder
Projected wins: 47.2

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Surprisingly, even after re-signing Paul George, the Thunder don't look any better than they did last season, when they won 48 games with the point differential of a 50-win team. While conventional wisdom has Anthony's departure in the addition-by-subtraction category, likely replacement Jerami Grant (projected minus-1.7 RPM) actually rates worse. And newcomers Nerlens Noel (minus-1.1) and Dennis Schroder (minus-1.2) don't project as significant upgrades on the second unit, so even a full season from Andre Roberson after a ruptured patella tendon doesn't keep Oklahoma City in the projected top four in the West.

7. New Orleans Pelicans
Projected wins: 44.1

This projection for the Pelicans is more in line with their point differential (typical of a 44-win team) than their actual 48 wins last season. With the adjustment for changing teams, neither Elfrid Payton (minus-1.3 projected RPM) nor Julius Randle (minus-1.0) look like major upgrades for New Orleans -- though they came at value prices.

8. Portland Trail Blazers
Projected wins: 42.0

The Blazers' offseason makeover of their bench, along with regression to the mean, is responsible for a projected drop from last season's 49 wins -- good for third in the West. Seth Curry (projected minus-1.4 RPM) doesn't rate as well as Napier, while Davis' departure means more minutes for second-year center Zach Collins (minus-1.9).

9. L.A. Lakers
Projected wins: 41.2

When the Lakers first signed LeBron, I put together a preliminary RPM projection that pegged them for 50 wins. So why the drop to 41 in the full version? No team was hit harder by the adjustment for players changing teams than the Lakers, who project to have just 55 percent of their minutes played by returning players. (Only the Phoenix Suns are lower in this regard.) And no individual was hit harder than James, whose projected RPM dropped from plus-5.0 to plus-2.7. While LeBron's offensive RPM did in fact take a huge hit when he joined the Miami Heat in 2010-11 (from plus-8.7 to plus-4.8), he's still likely to beat that projection.

If James drops only to a plus-4.0, the Lakers would move into eighth, and even if this projection is accurate for all teams they would still probably be better than 50-50 bets to make the playoffs because somebody else falls out, so RPM isn't necessarily calling them a lottery team. Nonetheless, these projections do now suggest the Lakers are far from challenging the best teams in the West.

10. San Antonio Spurs
Projected wins: 38.5

The narrative about the Spurs since the Leonard trade has been that they're adding DeRozan to a team that won 47 games last season with virtually no contribution from Kawhi. (I even mentioned something similar in my trade grades.) The problem with that analysis is San Antonio lost two other starters in Danny Green and Kyle Anderson, who filled Leonard's spot in the lineup. Anderson rated as the Spurs' second-best player by RPM last season and Green (minus-0.2) projects better than DeRozan (minus-0.4) by RPM. Add in aging from San Antonio's veteran core and it's certainly possible the Spurs won't be as good as they were last season, though I wouldn't necessarily bet against them making the playoffs.

11. LA Clippers
Projected wins: 35.5

The Clippers attempted to remain in playoff contention while mostly avoiding long-term salary to maintain their 2019 cap space, but by RPM they achieved only one of those two goals. They project as also-rans in the West playoff race in part because newcomers Marcin Gortat (minus-1.4 projected RPM) and Mike Scott (minus-1.8) rate poorly. So too does Avery Bradley (minus-1.1), who may as well be a holdover, while one-and-done point guards like Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (minus-2.7) have been ineffective as rookies.

12. Memphis Grizzlies
Projected wins: 33.1

Though the Grizzlies have beaten poor RPM projections in the past, that wasn't the case last season, when their controversial 35-win projection actually proved 13 too many. That was partly due to injury and an emphasis on draft positioning, but even with the addition of Anderson (projected plus-1.4 RPM), Memphis actually projects worse than a season ago. Aging is a factor there, with stars Mike Conley and Marc Gasol another year removed from their primes.

13. Dallas Mavericks
Projected wins: 32.1

Dallas is a bit closer to competing in the West than last season's 24-58 record, given the Mavericks' point differential was more typical of a 32-win team. Without much incentive to lose games after trading a protected pick to the Atlanta Hawks to move up for Luka Doncic, Dallas should be closer to that mark this season, though projections for Doncic (minus-0.8, still fourth-best among rookies) and DeAndre Jordan (0.0) are conservative.

14. Phoenix Suns
Projected wins: 27.2

While the Suns might be trying to win after signing Ariza to a one-year, $15 million contract, RPM still doesn't see them as particularly competitive. After all, Phoenix was last in the league in both offensive and defensive rating, so even a projected improvement to 27th on offense won't help much. (The Suns still project as the league's worst defense on a per-possession basis.)

15. Sacramento Kings
Projected wins: 25.4

No expected lottery team has less incentive to lose games than the Kings, who owe their 2019 first-round pick to either the 76ers (if it lands No. 1 overall) or the Celtics (otherwise). But even after decent additions in free agents Nemanja Bjelica (minus-0.5 projected RPM) and Yogi Ferrell (minus-0.2), Sacramento is the only team without a single player projected better than league average by RPM. So the Kings come in just behind Atlanta with the league's lowest average wins.
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Re: Vegas over/under win totals 

Post#32 » by bigfoot » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:50 am

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2018/8/15/17691760/phoenix-suns-nba-schedule-tanking-again

So this article has me really questioning the reality of a win total of 30+ games. I think it's doable and here are some of the reasons why:

1) Our five worst players in terms of advanced stats of those receiving major minutes were Ulis, Bender, Chriss, Daniels, and Jackson. Fortunately Ulis is gone. Ariza will start and Bender/Chriss will have to compete for backup minutes at PF with Jackson, Warren, and Holmes. Daniels shouldn't see the light of day with Booker getting the most minutes and Reed, Bridges, Jackson, or even Shaq taking his playing time. Finally, Jackson, who is still a major question mark, will need to compete or be replaced by the likes of Warren, Ariza, Reed, Shaq, and Daniels. Really there is no gifting of minutes to Jackson, Bender, or Chriss this season.

2) Injuries were a major part of having to play the young guys ... Ulis, Chriss, Jackson, and Bender. The walking dead included Knight, Booker, Reed, Warren, Dudley, Chandler, and Williams, as they all missed quite a number of games last year, and many were at the beginning of the season. In fact the only players with more than 70 games played were the five mentioned in item #1 ... Ulis, Bender, Chriss, Jackson, and Daniels.

3) The coaching debacle at the beginning of the season. Triano having no training camp. Igor having a full summer and training camp to work the players has to be a bonus.

4) The lack of a real point guard for most of the season. Ulis played the most PG minutes by far. Nearly three times as many minutes as any of the others ... James, Canaan, Payton, Shaq, or Gray. The one bright spot at PG was Shaq who ended up with some of the best advanced stats on the team. He only played in the last 23 games so he logged very few minutes with Warren, Booker, and Chandler who were oft injured. Knight and Shaq will certainly be better than the diminutive midget Ulis and other PGs we trotted out last year, let alone the possibility of good stuff coming from either Canaan or Okobo.

5) Ayton has to count for something !!! Although not my preferred pick he's got to be better than Len. Right?

6) If we really quit tanking then Ariza, Knight, Warren, and Booker should be playing significant minutes, barring injury, every game for all 82 games. Even Chandler should be part of the equation for whole year. After all he still had some of the best advanced stats on the team last year and was the starter in 15 of our 21 wins.

So come January if we have 15 wins and 26 losses ... same number as last year ... then we should end up 30 and 52 for the year as long as we don't go into tank mode. We certainly have better players than last year because we don't have to play Ulis, Bender, Chriss, Daniels, or Jackson anymore. If they do step up their play great!! But now we have options to replace them.

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