Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[dckingsfan]

Other than that glaring hole at PG, Phoenix has really improved themselves. Don't think they are a playoff team in the West though.

[Dat2U]

Said it all along, that was when Wall was still playing defense. He quit after the trade deadline completely. That was as good a wizards team as we had seen in the John Wall era. Why? Because they were playing a shortened 9 man rotation, giving Kelly Oubre starters minutes, and subbing him in for Morris at the 6 minute mark and playing a heavy amount of Wall-Beal-Oubre-Porter-Gortat. Morris also didn’t suck then. They were GS lite, absolutely running teams out of the gym.

Here’s a split on Oubre in 2016-2017, when he played 10- 20 minutes, he was -13.3, when he played less than 10 total minutes, he was -30.9. When he played more than 20 minutes, he was a positive net. In January of 2016-2017, he was playing 24 minutes a night with a +6.8 net rating shooting 37% from 3, in February, that dropped to 20 minutes a night and a -3.3 net rating only shooting 20% from 3. What happened with the team at that time? Well Brooks decided to play Jason F’ing Smith at PF and abandon small ball, they also traded for Bojan and Brandon Jennings.

I don’t know where I was going with this, but they were really good pre trade deadline and ruined it completely.

You like CCJ have no idea what your talking about.

That run was mainly on the surge in play of Markieff over a 2 month span. Gortat played well too. But once Markieff went from playing like an all-star to being the regular Markieff once again our play fell off.

Imagine running a replacement level PF out there and suddenly getting all-star quality play for 25 games or so. That's basically what happened.

You put a PF that's willing to defend next to a rim protector at C and suddenly perimeter defenders can look competent.

I literally said “Morris didn’t suck” in that stretch. I do know EXACTLY what I’m talking about. Wall was 18th in DRPM at the trade deadline, and dropped to 58th for point guards in the 20 some games after all star break. Brooks abandoned the small ball lineup that saved the season for us after the terrible start and replaced it with Jason Smith at PF, which was horrible. Bojan also cut into oubre’s minutes.

Just so you know, Wall had a sub 110 d rating in every month but March and April, where it skyrocketed to 114, he also had a negative net rating in both.

Why don’t you try this thing called “not throwing personal insults at anyone not slobbing on John Wall” and do some research. Oh yeah, that right, it’s actually everyone else’s fault that walls defense fell off.

Imagine actually thinking one players play is the lone reason for a team that won 18 of 21 turning into a sub .500 team after the trade deadline, and having the audacity to claim other people have no clue what they’re talking about.

RPM works differently than you suggest. Just because a player's RPM dropped or increased during the season doesnt necessarily mean a change in performance. It means there's a better sample size to judge their impact. Wall may have defended poorly all year long... however it takes over the course of an entire season for RPM to accurately show that.

For example A 20-game sample size for RPM honestly isn't very reliable. A 40-game sample is hit & miss. The creator of the stat pretty much said it takes about of season worth of games for the stat to normalize.

D-rating doesnt measure individual defense - it measures the 5-man unit on the floor while Wall is on the floor.

I criticize Wall when warranted. You find ways to criticize players you like and you find ways to prove the players you like are actually better than they are.

[Dat2U]

As for Markieff making a massive difference. Look at this way. Replace Mike Scott as your starting PF with Al Horford for 20 games and see any team make a significant jump. That's what pretty much happened with our run.

[dckingsfan]

But the point stands - Wall playing pound the rock and not playing D sets the entire team back. When he came back he reverted to the same form and we got the same results. This all from a supermax...

[payitforward]

I think u missed the point...
That’s y I used kelly as an example...
Otto isn’t aggressive and it’s detrimental to the team...he plays like a Kyle Korver when he have a far more versatile skill set...
He doesn’t take advantage of mismatches
Doesn’t attack an open lane frequently enough
If he isn’t open he won’t shoot or try to make a move he jus pass it back..
Yea it’s good to be mindful but sometimes u have to take a chance on yourself and believe u can score

Lets just agree that it would be better if Otto took more advantage of mismatches, if he attacked an open lane more frequently, if he added to his repertoire of moves. I have no problem with that.

The thing is... those same statements will be true of absolutely any player. That's obvious, right? & it's also obvious that Kelly Oubre isn't anywhere near as good a player as Otto Porter, right? Not on a remotely similar tier.

You tell how good a player is by looking at what he does -- not by what other things you'd like him to do. & when you look at what a player does in order to understand how good he is, you do not stop w/ what he does to score the ball.

Here's what Otto Porter did in 2017-18: he grabbed 50% more rebounds than an average wing, he turned the ball over 60% as often as an average wing, he blocked 1/3 more shots than an average wing, & he got 45% more steals than an average wing.

While he did all this he also scored pretty well in my book: an average wing posts 48% on 2pt shots; Otto scored sank 2 point shots at a 53.7% clip. An average wing shoots 36% on 3 pt. attempts. Otto shot them at over 44%. An average wing shoots just over 79% on FTs. Otto shot just under 83%. And, of course, while doing all this stuff Otto also outscored an average wing by @ 11%.

[Dat2U]

But the point stands - Wall playing pound the rock and not playing D sets the entire team back. When he came back he reverted to the same form and we got the same results. This all from a supermax...

Not sure I follow you b/c the circumstances at the beginning of the season and the end of the season were very different.

Wall clearly not right early in the season, tried to play through it and it hurt the team. He stood around too much, didn't try to get all the way to the rim and freelanced far too much on D. While he was hurt, the rest of the team outside of Morris was pretty healthy. That's why for a short time it looked liked we were better when he went out.

When Wall came back at the end of the year he was a completely different player and although the sample size is small, he played arguably as well as he's ever played. However the difference is by the end of the year, Otto was a shell of himself b/c of the injury and Beal played like he had worn down from all the attention he got in Wall's absense. Did you forget some of the horrible losses we had towards the end without Wall??? We were tied 2-2 in game five up in the 4th quarter against Toronto with Wall doing ALL the heavy lifting. Who else showed up in the playoffs? Outside Wall & maybe Mike Scott, did anyone else? I know it's easy to blame the super max guy that isn't even a supermax until next year but this analysis just doesnt cut it.

[deneem4]

I think u missed the point...
That’s y I used kelly as an example...
Otto isn’t aggressive and it’s detrimental to the team...he plays like a Kyle Korver when he have a far more versatile skill set...
He doesn’t take advantage of mismatches
Doesn’t attack an open lane frequently enough
If he isn’t open he won’t shoot or try to make a move he jus pass it back..
Yea it’s good to be mindful but sometimes u have to take a chance on yourself and believe u can score

Lets just agree that it would be better if Otto took more advantage of mismatches, if he attacked an open lane more frequently, if he added to his repertoire of moves. I have no problem with that.

The thing is... those same statements will be true of absolutely any player. That's obvious, right? & it's also obvious that Kelly Oubre isn't anywhere near as good a player as Otto Porter, right? Not on a remotely similar tier.

You tell how good a player is by looking at what he does -- not by what other things you'd like him to do. & when you look at what a player does in order to understand how good he is, you do not stop w/ what he does to score the ball.

Here's what Otto Porter did in 2017-18: he grabbed 50% more rebounds than an average wing, he turned the ball over 60% as often as an average wing, he blocked 1/3 more shots than an average wing, & he got 45% more steals than an average wing.

While he did all this he also scored pretty well in my book: an average wing posts 48% on 2pt shots; Otto scored sank 2 point shots at a 53.7% clip. An average wing shoots 36% on 3 pt. attempts. Otto shot them at over 44%. An average wing shoots just over 79% on FTs. Otto shot just under 83%. And, of course, while doing all this stuff Otto also outscored an average wing by @ 11%.

You bringing up numbers thats not relevant. Otto mindset scoring wise is his bbiggest weakness and its a big weakness to have...
For a player to be that efficent and young and not scoring atleast 20 pts per game is a problem.
And its not on wall or brooks because they give otto the ball...

Il sum it up like this...is this the best otto will be?
Is his ceiling kyle korver or klay thompsom

[dckingsfan]

But the point stands - Wall playing pound the rock and not playing D sets the entire team back. When he came back he reverted to the same form and we got the same results. This all from a supermax...

Not sure I follow you b/c the circumstances at the beginning of the season and the end of the season were very different.

Wall clearly not right early in the season, tried to play through it and it hurt the team. He stood around too much, didn't try to get all the way to the rim and freelanced far too much on D. While he was hurt, the rest of the team outside of Morris was pretty healthy. That's why for a short time it looked liked we were better when he went out.

When Wall came back at the end of the year he was a completely different player and although the sample size is small, he played arguably as well as he's ever played. However the difference is by the end of the year, Otto was a shell of himself b/c of the injury and Beal played like he had worn down from all the attention he got in Wall's absense. Did you forget some of the horrible losses we had towards the end without Wall??? We were tied 2-2 in game five up in the 4th quarter against Toronto with Wall doing ALL the heavy lifting. Who else showed up in the playoffs? Outside Wall & maybe Mike Scott, did anyone else? I know it's easy to blame the super max guy that isn't even a supermax until next year but this analysis just doesnt cut it.

My point is that Wall has played the same way not just last season but year after year. At the very beginning of the season the entire team was healthy and not sharing the ball.

When he went out with injury and until Porter couldn't move and Beal wore down, we were sharing the ball - it was fun to watch and we were winning. Yes, the team was still healthy during that time.

SuperW came back to play the same way - the same way he has year after year. Again we weren't a very good team. Again, and maybe only what I saw he just doesn't make those around him that much better. During the playoffs - well, we got bounced. Kyle Lowry was arguably as effective as our supermax.

I know we should let Wall have a pass - he is the best player on the team and your favorite. But it seems like, just maybe, Gortat might be more right than wrong.

But then no more excuses - if we are back to a sub-50 win team and we have a supermax clogging up the next logical steps in the transition - then he needs to go as much as Grunfeld.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Yes, aggressiveness should not be mistaken for effectiveness. But a lack of aggressiveness can sometimes be counterproductive. People here rave about Otto's efficiency. And, yes, going 8 for 12 with 1.0 turnover is efficient.

But I think the Zards would be better off with the Otto who goes 12 for 18 with 1.5 turnovers and puts pressure on defenses by hunting for shots (maybe even forcing shots) from time to time. That Otto needs to improve his ability to put the ball on the floor and create for himself.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteot01/splits/2018

Otto Porter's highest usage was the month of February. He had a very good offensive rating and he averaged over 19 points.

Guess who did not play at all in the month of February?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2018/splits/

Wizards averaged 29 assist in the month of February. By percentage it was their winningest record month at 8 and 4. Different people generated more assists than one guy holding on to the ball. That's when the media kept insisting they were not better without John Wall.

8-4 is decent, but how do you reconcile 2017 when the Wizards had the 2nd best record in the league over a two and a half month period and were considered the hottest team in the league. Wall was player of the month and led the way.

Very simple. I want all you Wall ass kissers to read this, especially Dat2U.

When Wall is playing great the Wizards are by far better. John Wall is the most talented player on the team. At his best he is Far Better than anyone else on the team.

What happened over 2 and 1/2 months in 2017 is very similar to when the Wizards swept Toronto in the playoffs. Wall led the way and they played very well. Other players also played very well.

John Wall had knee surgery after starting this season off very poorly.

How did 2017 end? Boston handed them their ass in the playoffs with John Wall playing quite horribly.

How did this year's playoffs end? Supermax John Wall played like crap again despite good overall playoff stats. Delon Wright made him look stupid. Kyle Lowry outplayed him.

There is one thing consistent about John Wall and that is inconsistency. How many Eastern Conference Finals have the Wizards been to? Zero. The man has been here eight years.

During Everybody Eats portions of the year I saw enough to let me know they would do fine with another point guard. I believe the best thing they can do is trade supermax John Wall because he is not worth his contract. His knees are most likely not going to hold up and he is not going to be the consistent good leader to get it done.

You can point to two and a half months but I can point to eight years of futility and frustration

How did the 2016 playoffs end?

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Why even argue with CCJ? He's never getting off the bash Wall boat. To him, almost anyone is better. From Eric Maynor to MCW to whatever free agent off the street that has caught the glimmer of his eye. Theres no point in expecting any rational analysis out of it.

Yeah put out some b******* names and then call me irrational.

I put out stats. Facts. I don't need to get personal.

You're wrong about John Wall and time's going to prove me right ...again. I don't even have any animus. I'm not even mad at you.

I'm frustrated that the Wall fans are the ones that are irrational. I wouldn't choose any point guard instead of John Wall but I think this team would be a lot better with Damian Lillard. I think they'd just be just as good with Kemba Walker. Same with Kyle Lowry. Those guys aren't as good of an athlete aaJohn Wall but they're smarter and they just make better plays when it counts. They shoot the ball better especially in crunch time . John makes some of the most ridiculously dumb plays I have ever seen. He's been doing it for years.

I apologize for the auto-correct errors. I truly hate autocorrect

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Otto Porter's highest usage was the month of February. He had a very good offensive rating and he averaged over 19 points.

Guess who did not play at all in the month of February?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2018/splits/

Wizards averaged 29 assist in the month of February. By percentage it was their winningest record month at 8 and 4. Different people generated more assists than one guy holding on to the ball. That's when the media kept insisting they were not better without John Wall.

Yeah, we were 8-4 in February and feeling pretty good about ourselves. Some fans were climbing on the “We’re better without Wall” bandwagon. Then the rest of the regular season happened.

The Zards were 7-13 between March and the end of the season. (Wall played in 4 of those games. The team went 2-2 in them.)

So what happened after February? Well, teams began to better defend “everybody eats” and game plan for our new and different starting PG (Sato).

That stretch effectively ended the “We’re better without Wall” mantra...at least for most Zards fans.

Markieff Morris came back down to earth and then some.

Teams did defend better. Sato did fall off and the schedule got a lot tougher. Most of all Bradley Beal was taken out of his playmaking role by other team's game-planning.

Another thing is that for a while the Wizards were on a phenomenal free-throw shooting pace. When John went out of the lineup for a while they were on an unsustainable hot streak from the free throw line.

Regardless, I still liked what I saw better that month without John.

For all of you that get lost in this "Wall attack"; my complaint has to do with the ball not moving when one guard pounds the ball.

Instead of having a ball dominant guard it is better to have many passes and many people involved in the playmaking.

When there are near 30 assist a game the first pass is made before 14 seconds left on the clock. That almost never happens when John Wall is dominating the ball.

[ClutchDJ]

I go away for a bit & CCJ still hates John just as much as before, lmao.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Otto Porter's highest usage was the month of February. He had a very good offensive rating and he averaged over 19 points.

Guess who did not play at all in the month of February?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2018/splits/

Wizards averaged 29 assist in the month of February. By percentage it was their winningest record month at 8 and 4. Different people generated more assists than one guy holding on to the ball. That's when the media kept insisting they were not better without John Wall.

Yeah, we were 8-4 in February and feeling pretty good about ourselves. Some fans were climbing on the “We’re better without Wall” bandwagon. Then the rest of the regular season happened.

The Zards were 7-13 between March and the end of the season. (Wall played in 4 of those games. The team went 2-2 in them.)

So what happened after February? Well, teams began to better defend “everybody eats” and game plan for our new and different starting PG (Sato).

That stretch effectively ended the “We’re better without Wall” mantra...at least for most Zards fans.

I agree with you that the "everybody eats" success faded over time as the Scouting Report came out, but it's worth noting that Otto Porter hurt himself in the March 10th Miami game and was a shadow of himself for the next month. Otto's poor play and limited minutes also contributed to that poor stretch in March/April.

Thanks that was the main reason that everybody eats stop working. Totally forgot about his injury.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And tanking to avoid Cleveland, and not having a backup guard or any quality backups for that matter with Oubre fading and Sato obviously being a starter. A lot of fatigue.

They still played at a 47 win pace IIRC.

The topic shouldn’t be “are the wizards better without John Wall” it should be: “why the F*** is Satoransky on the bench while trey Burke Brandon Jennings ty Lawson Ramon sessions Marcus Thornton disgrace the game of basketball?”

Sato literally averaged 10-6-4 on 53/50/90 shooting splits with 173 assists to 56 turnovers as a starter with a 123 offensive rating, +5.1 net.

And we benched him for the playoffs

A lot of people are mad at me because of my stance on John Wall. The real thing to be angry about is being a wizard fan in the first f****** place.

Being stuck with Ernie Grunfeld is like a curse.

What I want to say one more time is if you think I don't like John Wall you really underestimate how I feel about this crappy coach Scott Brooks. The Wizards could have been really good if he had just played the right lineups.

Ernie Grunfeld hired Scott Brooks. The real reason I see no hope for the Wizards is the coach and this general manager.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Imagine the national media saying “why the hell is Tomas Satoransky not playing 30+ minutes a night??? This dude shot over 40% from 3 in every single month of the season, that’s not a fluke. In February, he averaged 13 points 7 assists 3.5 rebounds on .713 TS% with a 133 offensive rating in only 29 minutes a game because Brooks STILL wanted to use a no point guard lineup!!! Can you believe that???”

“Imagine wall and Satoransky on the court together, the guy is a 6’7 and shoots 47% from 3, why is it one or the other?”

The media became very divisive. They attacked Gortat and took John Wall's side. Gortat's divisive tweets are the main reason they started being so defensive over John Wall. They defended John Wall so vehemently that they actually put Tomas Satoransky down by insisting that the Wizards were not better without John Wall.

There were so many nice plays Satoransky made that did not make highlights it was obvious the media was waiting for the Wizards to f*** up. Once Satoransky started making bad plays they made sure to play those highlights again and again. Tomas was rattled and those nationally televised games did him no good because he wilted.

I really believe the NBA is in effect racist. European players have to play like brothers or they will be buried by media coverage. If it's not a highlight-reel move it's not going to get covered nicely.

The only way a guy like Tomas Satoransky is going to get his props in this league as if he were traded to San Antonio.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Yeah, we were 8-4 in February and feeling pretty good about ourselves. Some fans were climbing on the “We’re better without Wall” bandwagon. Then the rest of the regular season happened.

The Zards were 7-13 between March and the end of the season. (Wall played in 4 of those games. The team went 2-2 in them.)

So what happened after February? Well, teams began to better defend “everybody eats” and game plan for our new and different starting PG (Sato).

That stretch effectively ended the “We’re better without Wall” mantra...at least for most Zards fans.

I agree with you that the "everybody eats" success faded over time as the Scouting Report came out, but it's worth noting that Otto Porter hurt himself in the March 10th Miami game and was a shadow of himself for the next month. Otto's poor play and limited minutes also contributed to that poor stretch in March/April.

Porter hurt, Beal wearing down and deciding to do hero ball (and not succeeding) and Oubre's huge funk... saying that "everybody eats" success faded is just not the case. And then we didn't improve when Wall came back - so there is that...

Do we want to go back to the Wall pounds the ball offense?

Thank you. They did not improve when Wall returned.

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

And we benched him for the playoffs

Sato benched himself for the playoffs...he was a deer in the headlights. Hopefully, the experience he gained as a starter last season will carry over into this season. Overall, he did play well in that role.

Sato has earned the right to play more...maybe not 30 mins a game though. More like around 25 mins.

The year before the Wizards went out and acquired Bogdanovic just to bench Satoransky. Their defensive intensity fell off a cliff and they got worse but Scott Brooks did not enjoy playing this player.

Deer in the headlights happens when you worry about the coach sitting you on the bench at the very first opportunity which has happened to Tomas two years in a row.

Lawson played and Tomas did not a quite him. Brooks did.

This coach is sabotaging this player

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[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I go away for a bit & CCJ still hates John just as much as before, lmao.

I'm pretty consistent.

But I don't hate John... not as a person.

What I would love to see is the Wizards trade John Wall to the Lakers where he could end up with a Hall of Fame career and at least a couple of championships.

That's not hate

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, we were 8-4 in February and feeling pretty good about ourselves. Some fans were climbing on the “We’re better without Wall” bandwagon. Then the rest of the regular season happened.

The Zards were 7-13 between March and the end of the season. (Wall played in 4 of those games. The team went 2-2 in them.)

So what happened after February? Well, teams began to better defend “everybody eats” and game plan for our new and different starting PG (Sato).

That stretch effectively ended the “We’re better without Wall” mantra...at least for most Zards fans.

I agree with you that the "everybody eats" success faded over time as the Scouting Report came out, but it's worth noting that Otto Porter hurt himself in the March 10th Miami game and was a shadow of himself for the next month. Otto's poor play and limited minutes also contributed to that poor stretch in March/April.

And Oubre shot a lovely 26% from 3 point land during the stretch. We basically played without 2 of our best 5 players during that stretch. In my mind, that doesn't take away from the good stretch.

[dckingsfan]

I go away for a bit & CCJ still hates John just as much as before, lmao.

Hmmm, wondering if I am falling into the same camp. I guess this season just kind of turned it for me. I saw how the team "could" play without him. I saw that supermax coming down the tracks and I just felt that we should trade him - guess that kind of makes me a hater.

I see him as an oft-injured PG that depends on speed and athleticism - I worry that he is going to struggle to get back to what he was even in ('16-'17) and that his upward trajectory is now flat. That he is going to beef big-time with Howard.

I just thing the value proposition salary/(production) with his upcoming salary just isn't there.

But I also understand the other perspective - if EG were to trade Wall for picks/players - do we trust how that would turn out? And if he is your favorite player - then sorry...