Transaction Discussion Part 3 (Trades, Free-Agency, News, Rumors & Ideas)

[Popovich]

Trezz is simply not an NBA starter. First of all he's only 6'8", and as our Serbian friend 'Popovich' noted on the other thread, a 21st century big man has to be able to score away from the basket.

Actually I first heard about that theory probably in the NBA show "Starters" and later during all those TV coverage's while following Jokic's matches and specially when he had a clash vs KAT.

[janmagn]

I hope Tobi would take a discount like Lou. Maybe something like 10m/year? I know that's low but if we get him to take a deal like that it would be great

Lähetetty minun LG-M250 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[wco81]

I hope Tobi would take a discount like Lou. Maybe something like 10m/year? I know that's low but if we get him to take a deal like that it would be great

Lähetetty minun LG-M250 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

With all the teams with cap space next year?

Also doubtful he just settles for $18-20 million.

[janmagn]

I hope Tobi would take a discount like Lou. Maybe something like 10m/year? I know that's low but if we get him to take a deal like that it would be great

Lähetetty minun LG-M250 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

With all the teams with cap space next year?

Also doubtful he just settles for $18-20 million.

I didn't say it will happen but would be great if happened

Lähetetty minun LG-M250 laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[og15]

Trezz is simply not an NBA starter. First of all he's only 6'8", and as our Serbian friend 'Popovich' noted on the other thread, a 21st century big man has to be able to score away from the basket.

Actually I first heard about that theory probably in the NBA show "Starters" and later during all those TV coverage's while following Jokic's matches and specially when he had a clash vs KAT.

I think that's too much of a generalization. It depends on the rest of the team and what position and role the player has and their skills on both ends.

If Harrell was a Brand like 6'8 where he can defend and man the C position, especially in this small ball loving league, it's a totally different discussion.

Bigs today generally have to be very good on offense, and yes, able to affect the game outside of inside 15 feet OR be an impact player on defense so someone like Capela (only 6'9), our own DJ, Gobert, Adams, etc, usually both with rebounding and rim protection.

As a blanket statement it isn't accurate, it all just depends on your combination of skills. Harrell doesn't have the defensive acumen, so that basically eliminates him as a starter for most teams unless they have a pairing big who is primarily an outside guy but also protects the rim, and who has that? So for most teams unless something changes in his game on either end, he is still a bench big.

[esqtvd]

You ended up agreeing.

FTR, Elton was never a full-time C. When he finally played C full-time at age 33, he was a part-time player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html#advanced_pbp::none


It is generally true that 6'8" is too small to be a starting NBA center. And as you note, Trezz is not a rim protector. He's also a subpar rebounder [8.5 per 36 minutes].

[TrueLAfan]

So much of this depends on who’s on the floor with Harrell. There are more than a few PFs that he can defend, so it’s not like he’ll solely be a 6’8” C. OTOH—let’s say he’s on the floor with Danilo and Tobias. They can spread the court so much that the fact that Harrell lacks range isn’t as much of a factor. So there’s certainly plenty of minutes he can and should play during the season—but I’m also inclined to agree with esqtvd; he’s not a real NBA starter.

On another note—the comment about Tobias taking a discount? Doubt it. But the idea’s that he’d be “settling” with a deal starting at 18-20 million … really? I’d put Tobias’ value around that of Oladipo (4 year/$84 million contract), Aaron Gordon (4 years/$84 million), Jeff Teague (3 years/$57 million), etc. Those guys are/were occasional all-stars and very good players. Max players? No. But worth the $18-22 million they get. If we offered Tobias a 4 year/$85 million deal, I think we’d have a good chance of keeping him.

[og15]

You ended up agreeing.

FTR, Elton was never a full-time C. When he finally played C full-time at age 33, he was a part-time player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html#advanced_pbp::none


It is generally true that 6'8" is too small to be a starting NBA center. And as you note, Trezz is not a rim protector. He's also a subpar rebounder [8.5 per 36 minutes].

Certainly, Elton never "had" to be a C, but because of his length and ability to protect the rim, he was capable of playing C as we saw when he was older, and he was technically a PF/C, so he could be let on the floor with another PF and the team didn't suffer on defense. When Elton played though, C's were much bigger mass wise and teams still played with two guys that might not be able to shoot further than 15-17 feet, but he could still cope defensively with the bigger C's. In the current NBA, Elton would be a great guy to plug in at C because he can fill the defensive role.

I do agree about Harrell not being a starter for most teams because of his lack of defensive skills more so than his outside abilities. I don't agree with the general statement that a 21st century big man has to be able to score away from the basket, it paints too large a brush. I think both you and Popovich if you examine the league would agree that it is true. Well, obviously it is true because a lot of the top teams start C's that can't do any scoring away from the basket, so it isn't something we need to determine. What we can discuss is if and how much it might limit a team against certain matchups depending on the mobility of that player to switch out to the perimeter, certainly, but that's digressing.

[esqtvd]

You ended up agreeing.

FTR, Elton was never a full-time C. When he finally played C full-time at age 33, he was a part-time player.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html#advanced_pbp::none


It is generally true that 6'8" is too small to be a starting NBA center. And as you note, Trezz is not a rim protector. He's also a subpar rebounder [8.5 per 36 minutes].

Certainly, Elton never "had" to be a C, but because of his length and ability to protect the rim, he was capable of playing C as we saw when he was older, and he was technically a PF/C, so he could be let on the floor with another PF and the team didn't suffer on defense. When Elton played though, C's were much bigger mass wise and teams still played with two guys that might not be able to shoot further than 15-17 feet, but he could still cope defensively with the bigger C's. In the current NBA, Elton would be a great guy to plug in at C because he can fill the defensive role.

I do agree about Harrell not being a starter for most teams because of his lack of defensive skills more so than his outside abilities. I don't agree with the general statement that a 21st century big man has to be able to score away from the basket, it paints too large a brush. I think both you and Popovich if you examine the league would agree that it is true. Well, obviously it is true because a lot of the top teams start C's that can't do any scoring away from the basket, so it isn't something we need to determine. What we can discuss is if and how much it might limit a team against certain matchups depending on the mobility of that player to switch out to the perimeter, certainly, but that's digressing.

When it comes to centers, yes, dinosaurs still walk the earth. And the occasional Rudy Gobert is gonna pull his weight and then some. But you can't have a 6'8" center who's limited to the paint.

As the 21st century goes on, you're going to see more DMCs, Embiids and KATs evolve. The Wes Unselds [6'7"] have already died off.

Here are number the of 3-pointers made (orange) and attempted (blue) per game by centers, as classified by Basketball-Reference

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/04/17/five-out-nba-entering-era-of-3-point-shooting-centers/

[TrueLAfan]

It depends on who you’re playing with. Unseld would start today; he’d be great today. Wes Unseld was effective because he was, maybe, the best passing C of all time, and he just brutally abused opponents on offense and defense. I’ve never seen a guy set screens and picks like Unseld. Never. (The closest I’ve seen in the current NBA? Mr. Marcin Gortat.) Unseld was a smart player—he took his disadvantage (low height) and focused on the advantages that gave him. His center of gravity was about three inches above his ankles, so he couldn’t be moved off the post on D and his screens were bone crunching. He also had the Brand thing--incredibly long arms that, when rebounding and combined with leveraging his center of gravity and getting good position, made him an a okay shot blocker and great rebounder. If Trezz could play 35 mpg, set picks and screens like Gortat, average 4 or 5 assist a game, and rebound about 35%-40% better, he’d be something like Wes Unseld. And he’d not only be a starter, he’d a be great, great player.

But Unseld had the benefit of playing alongside a long PF that had range (less than he thought) and got tons of strong side blocks because that PF was mobile and came over on guys that couldn’t move around Wes. Unseld needed Hayes, but Unseld helped Elvin Hayes a lot (MO, more than vice versa). If Montrezl Harrell is on the court with a guy that a player that can rebound and spread the court while making occasional passes—Harrell is fine. That’s why teams want(ed) him. But I’m sticking/agreeing with his current level and style of play not being NBA starter level. He’d have to play alongside a specific type of player to start in the NBA—and have a specific type of backup. He could be a good to very good starter—maybe, if he could play the minutes (which we don’t know about yet). Right now, he’s a valuable rotation player who still has some upside, just like his contract implies.

[esqtvd]

It depends on who you’re playing with. Unseld would start today; he’d be great today. Wes Unseld was effective because he was, maybe, the best passing C of all time, and he just brutally abused opponents on offense and defense. I’ve never seen a guy set screens and picks like Unseld. Never. (The closest I’ve seen in the current NBA? Mr. Marcin Gortat.) Unseld was a smart player—he took his disadvantage (low height) and focused on the advantages that gave him. His center of gravity was about three inches above his ankles, so he couldn’t be moved off the post on D and his screens were bone crunching. He also had the Brand thing--incredibly long arms that, when rebounding and combined with leveraging his center of gravity and getting good position, made him an a okay shot blocker and great rebounder. If Trezz could play 35 mpg, set picks and screens like Gortat, average 4 or 5 assist a game, and rebound about 35%-40% better, he’d be something like Wes Unseld. And he’d not only be a starter, he’d a be great, great player.

But Unseld had the benefit of playing alongside a long PF that had range (less than he thought) and got tons of strong side blocks because that PF was mobile and came over on guys that couldn’t move around Wes. Unseld needed Hayes, but Unseld helped Elvin Hayes a lot (MO, more than vice versa).

Well, it's the offseason, so I suppose debating Wes Unseld in the 21st century is just the summertime ticket. I love this stuff, bruh. Props.


With lifetime averages of 10.8 ppg and 14 rpg--and only 0.6 bpg--the numbers certainly aren't there. He didn't get to the line all that much [3 FTAs per game], and only hit 66% of them. 51% FG wih a career high of only 57%. Makes DJ look pretty damn good.

Neither are there any Wes Unselds [6'7"] out there today. Closest is Draymond, who can stick the 3, and Draymond doesn't start at C. And at only 6'9", you can say some nice things about Clint Capela, but Unseld is a HOFer. Clint...likely not.

Hey, it was a different game back then, and Unseld could play it. But it was more like Old Time Hockey. Today, there is no sticking out your butt and backing down someone in the post. These kids just go up, over, and around them.

[TrueLAfan]

Yeah, this is what the offseason is for. Hopes for the future and arguing about the past.

So Unseld ... You can't look at the basic numbers, especially for blocks. More advanced stats, including blocks, began to be kept in 1974—the year he hurt his knee. At the time, it was considered a potentially career ending injury (probably a torn MCL and ACL. He lost some of his hops, which adversely affected his shot blocking. Most of the blocks he got were the result of his (surprising, but frequently noted) quickness and his techniques of pushing a player out of the desired shot zone just as the opposing player was about to jump. Opposing players often tried to make an adjustment on the fly. Unseld was simply ahead of them. He wasn’t a great shot blocker, but reading over some of the article form the period mentions blocked shots (and multiple blocked shot) games with enough frequency that I feel pretty confident saying he was a 1 to 1.5 bpg game prior to 1973-4.

As for the scoring—Unseld was a good scorer when he was younger, prior to the trade for Elvin Hayes. He easily scored in double figures every year and had a little bit of range. But that went out when Elvin showed up. I don’t want to totally rip on Elvin Hayes, who had a lot of strengths as a ballplayer. But, well—Elvin pretty much never passed up shots, and was simply a poor—and unwilling--passer. He was also moody and incredibly grating. Some of my favorite comments about an NBA player are related to Elvin Hayes and none of them are good. (Google “John Lally Elvin Hayes”.)

The thing is, Wes Unseld is the best thing that ever happened to Elvin Hayes. We were talking about how Harrell could be (but isn’t really) a starter today. Wes Unseld would help Trezz a ton. Elvin Hayes blocked shot number went up markedly when he was able to get help side blocks while opposing big men struggled to get around The Wall That Was Wes Unseld (and then dropped when he left Balitmore after Wes retired). Unseld’s shot attempts dropped by 3 or 4 per game after Hayes came on board--even though Wes shot 51% and Hayes shot 45%. Hayes wanted those extra shots. Wes kept his mouth shut to keep Hayes happy and for team unity. On D, Unseld guarded the other team’s best frontcourt player, regardless of the size differential and regardless of the opposing player’s style of play. Hayes matched up much better physically against Bob McAdoo or Nate Thurmond or Bill Walton or Artis Gilmore than Unseld did. But Unseld did the dirty work. He went out and guarded those elite players, often 15-20 feet from the basket—and he did a terrific job.

Could he play effectively today? God, yes. His defensive impact alone would be great. The least important part of his D was his shot blocking ability. What he had were great defensive instincts and a great motor—and those will still work now. Unseld was a rock—but he was also quick and fast. Remember, the NBA of the 1970s was a running league. And the great Cs were not just interior players, like some people today now think. Dave Cowens? Bob McAdoo? Bob Lanier? Jack Sikma? Those guys and plenty of other top big men had range. Unseld guarded them all. And he was great at it. How great? Modern statistical analysis gives us an idea that goes beyond the basic raw numbers--and the ocnclusion is very very clear. The new statistics allowed Defensive Box Score to be calculated after 1974. Unseld was in the league top 10 every year after that. He was in the top 5 six times. He led the league twice. He had five seasons in the top 10 in VORP (Value Over Replacement Layer) between 1974 and 1980, when he retired. His defensive rating is 96.3—7th all-time. This is battling against Cs in the Golden Age of Centers.

Scoring? Could have scored more—would have if Hayes wasn’t there. He shot over 50% and had modest range. But still, Unseld had too many high level skills in too many areas to keep him from being valuable today, scoring or not. His passing numbers speak for themselves—but the comments of other players reinforce it. Unseld is simply a great passing big man. Smart playmaking? His A/TO ratio was over 2 to 1. The opened lanes from the three today would help, not hurt that. Little things? Outlet passes. Bone crunching picks. Off the court? Didn’t complain to the press. Played through injuries. A stand up guy.

In Clipper terms--the New Wes we have isn't what we need. But the Old Wes would help us a ton.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It depends on who you’re playing with. Unseld would start today; he’d be great today. Wes Unseld was effective because he was, maybe, the best passing C of all time, and he just brutally abused opponents on offense and defense. I’ve never seen a guy set screens and picks like Unseld. Never. (The closest I’ve seen in the current NBA? Mr. Marcin Gortat.) Unseld was a smart player—he took his disadvantage (low height) and focused on the advantages that gave him. His center of gravity was about three inches above his ankles, so he couldn’t be moved off the post on D and his screens were bone crunching. He also had the Brand thing--incredibly long arms that, when rebounding and combined with leveraging his center of gravity and getting good position, made him an a okay shot blocker and great rebounder. If Trezz could play 35 mpg, set picks and screens like Gortat, average 4 or 5 assist a game, and rebound about 35%-40% better, he’d be something like Wes Unseld. And he’d not only be a starter, he’d a be great, great player.

But Unseld had the benefit of playing alongside a long PF that had range (less than he thought) and got tons of strong side blocks because that PF was mobile and came over on guys that couldn’t move around Wes. Unseld needed Hayes, but Unseld helped Elvin Hayes a lot (MO, more than vice versa).

Well, it's the offseason, so I suppose debating Wes Unseld in the 21st century is just the summertime ticket. I love this stuff, bruh. Props.


With lifetime averages of 10.8 ppg and 14 rpg--and only 0.6 bpg--the numbers certainly aren't there. He didn't get to the line all that much [3 FTAs per game], and only hit 66% of them. 51% FG wih a career high of only 57%. Makes DJ look pretty damn good.

Neither are there any Wes Unselds [6'7"] out there today. Closest is Draymond, who can stick the 3, and Draymond doesn't start at C. And at only 6'9", you can say some nice things about Clint Capela, but Unseld is a HOFer. Clint...likely not.

Hey, it was a different game back then, and Unseld could play it. But it was more like Old Time Hockey. Today, there is no sticking out your butt and backing down someone in the post. These kids just go up, over, and around them.

The very first basketball game I ever saw my dad took me to in around 1972. They were still called the Baltimore Bullets. I remember one player in particular had a big afro. He secured a rebound and afterwards threw what I now know to be called an outlet pass. What I remember the most was his fat jiggled after he threw the pass the length of the court.

That player was Wes Unseld.

About 12 or 13 years later, I would see him often at Bowie State University. I was a student at that time . By then Wes Unseld was the coach of the Washington Bullets and that is where they held their preseason training.

Wes really was a great player who had a very high basketball IQ. It was pure joy watching him and Elvin Hayes and Phil Chenier and Bob Dandridge. They won one championship and almost another in the late 70s.

[brianmc]

check this out....

-trade Danilo and Louis Williams for expiring contracts
-renounce all the FA's except Tobi Harris
-Buyout Avery Bradley. Stretch the $2mill owed to him over 3 years.
-Waive Evans, Thornwell
-Only guaranteed contracts left- SGA, J Robinson, Harrell
-you now have $65 million in space while accounting for 8 incomplete roster holds at $897,158 a pop
-if you renounce Tobi Harris's cap hold of $22.2 mill and you got about $86 million in cap space.
-Get Harris to agree to 5 years/$18 mill a season and you'd still have 2 max slots.

Kawhi, Klay Thompson and Tobi Harris would be a nice big 3. I don't care what Thompson says. I can't see GSW giving him the max starting at $32.7 million. He'd have 4 rings by then ... he gonna leave tens of millions on the table?

Or what if Durant comes to LAC with Thompson? Or Kyrie or Jimmy Butler? Durant would have 3 rings by next off season. Taking a new team to the championship would only enhance his legacy and keep him in Cali. Also put him centerstage against Lebron who will be fading within 2 seasons.. while Durant is still prime.

[QRich3]

Don't think we can realistically make a deal that brings back expiring contracts for a package of Lou and Gallo, not at the moment anyway. Don't think planning anything around Klay Thompson leaving the Dubs is realistic either. Not overly excited about either Butler or Irving, who knows about Kawhi, I guess it'll depend on his attitude and how healthy he looks this season. But I'm not all that excited about paying Tobi what he'll be asking for either.

On the other hand, I'm very excited about Shai and Jerome, and about who can we bring in upcoming drafts, or which young players can we trade all these veterans for.

I'm all for adding top free agents if you can do it like Boston did, keeping your young core intact. If you have to start spending assets into trading for capspace, or taking playtime out of the young guys development, eff free agency. Free agency is always very expensive and one out of 30 teams only strikes gold once every few seasons. The vast majority of the time it's a disappointment.

[Quake Griffin]

Don't think we can realistically make a deal that brings back expiring contracts for a package of Lou and Gallo, not at the moment anyway. Don't think planning anything around Klay Thompson leaving the Dubs is realistic either. Not overly excited about either Butler or Irving, who knows about Kawhi, I guess it'll depend on his attitude and how healthy he looks this season. But I'm not all that excited about paying Tobi what he'll be asking for either.

On the other hand, I'm very excited about Shai and Jerome, and about who can we bring in upcoming drafts, or which young players can we trade all these veterans for.

I'm all for adding top free agents if you can do it like Boston did, keeping your young core intact. If you have to start spending assets into trading for capspace, or taking playtime out of the young guys development, eff free agency. Free agency is always very expensive and one out of 30 teams only strikes gold once every few seasons. The vast majority of the time it's a disappointment.

Perfect post. Agree completely.

It's one thing to talk tough about the idea of free agency.
It's another to dig into the details of who is available, our chances of getting them, and what adding them actually does for our franchise.

[esqtvd]

Of the last 7 champions, Bron, Durant and Kawhi have 6 of 'em. So yes, free agency is the latest fashion.

But the point is not just FAs, you're also looking at being desirable in sign & trades and also keeping whoever you might get in a Kawhi-type trade. You have to keep the franchise competitive and attractive; tanking is the opposite of that. We have the latter by virtue of having the richest owner in sports and being in LA. but nobody in their prime is going to want to join a team 3 years away.

[simon24]

Don't think we can realistically make a deal that brings back expiring contracts for a package of Lou and Gallo, not at the moment anyway. Don't think planning anything around Klay Thompson leaving the Dubs is realistic either. Not overly excited about either Butler or Irving, who knows about Kawhi, I guess it'll depend on his attitude and how healthy he looks this season. But I'm not all that excited about paying Tobi what he'll be asking for either.

On the other hand, I'm very excited about Shai and Jerome, and about who can we bring in upcoming drafts, or which young players can we trade all these veterans for.

I'm all for adding top free agents if you can do it like Boston did, keeping your young core intact. If you have to start spending assets into trading for capspace, or taking playtime out of the young guys development, eff free agency. Free agency is always very expensive and one out of 30 teams only strikes gold once every few seasons. The vast majority of the time it's a disappointment.

Would it be a good idea to pay Harris what he wants when he could get moved like Blake down the line? I'm not sure what the stars' FAs perception of LAC is post Lob City. I recall players were upset when Blake got moved. Not sure how they're taking the Bowen move either.

I agree on your points on the rookies and FA. I'm curious to see will they literally redshirt Shai and Jerome by having them play very little and be in and out G League or move Bradley and Beverly at some point of the season so SGA and JR can be starters or is it just realistic at best to expect them to get minutes over Milos and Lou as backups at some point of the season?

[Quake Griffin]

Don't think we can realistically make a deal that brings back expiring contracts for a package of Lou and Gallo, not at the moment anyway. Don't think planning anything around Klay Thompson leaving the Dubs is realistic either. Not overly excited about either Butler or Irving, who knows about Kawhi, I guess it'll depend on his attitude and how healthy he looks this season. But I'm not all that excited about paying Tobi what he'll be asking for either.

On the other hand, I'm very excited about Shai and Jerome, and about who can we bring in upcoming drafts, or which young players can we trade all these veterans for.

I'm all for adding top free agents if you can do it like Boston did, keeping your young core intact. If you have to start spending assets into trading for capspace, or taking playtime out of the young guys development, eff free agency. Free agency is always very expensive and one out of 30 teams only strikes gold once every few seasons. The vast majority of the time it's a disappointment.

Would it be a good idea to pay Harris what he wants when he could get moved like Blake down the line? I'm not sure what the stars' FAs perception of LAC is post Lob City. I recall players were upset when Blake got moved. Not sure how they're taking the Bowen move either.

I agree on your points on the rookies and FA. I'm curious to see will they literally redshirt Shai and Jerome by having them play very little and be in and out G League or move Bradley and Beverly at some point of the season so SGA and JR can be starters or is it just realistic at best to expect them to get minutes over Milos and Lou as backups at some point of the season?

Maybe.

Tobias could be unmovable at the wrong number.

Keep in mind the rumors supported the idea that the Clippers were shopping Griffin (to the Wolves and Thunder) and could not find a suitor until Stan Van Gundy came through with that lottery pick. It's reasonable to think that if SVG didn't come through with that offer, that we would still have Griffin on our roster....maybe even a disgruntled Griffin.
____________________
I think it is realistic to expect Shai to play but not Jerome.
However annoying that is, that's the [stupid] path this organization has decided to go down.

[Neddy]

Tobias could be unmovable at the wrong number.

Keep in mind the rumors supported the idea that the Clippers were shopping Griffin (to the Wolves and Thunder) and could not find a suitor until Stan Van Gundy came through with that lottery pick. It's reasonable to think that if SVG didn't come through with that offer, that we would still have Griffin on our roster....maybe even a disgruntled Griffin.
____________________
I think it is realistic to expect Shai to play but not Jerome.
However annoying that is, that's the [stupid] path this organization has decided to go down.

for Tobias being unmovable at certain numbers, absolutely.

and disgruntled Griffin would also be probably investing more into his show biz career than working to regain his bounce while continuing to expand his game. I don't see him being the dedicated type like CP3, MJ, Larry, Magic, or Kobe who drive his teammates crazy when perceiving them as not putting in the same effort as he. to have the best player of your team, the franchise guy with the most $$ and most accolades and TV commercials, to not be the unquestioned leader of your team in the locker room, then he ain't worth the max, and Blake was never going to be that guy. unlike Mack trade for the Raiders, this one, was a good deal.

your last point about Jerome not being ready, I agree. I don't even see Doc truly giving enough minutes to Shai to begin with. if everybody is healthy, Pat, Avery, Milos and Lou are going to play every game. that top 4 are heavy enough that without an injury or two, I don't even see enough PT to develop Shai to his max this season. I am not even sure at this point that Jerome will be on our roster by the end of this season. I get his odd feeling lately that we didn't draft 4 guards in the last 2 drafts to have them compliment each other, but rather to compete and see who comes out on top and who develops into a trade asset. Shai seems to fit the mold of the first type, and Jerome the latter type.