Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[dckingsfan]

What a load of revisionist history bs on Wall. Sorry but the majority of the hate of Wall on this board goes way beyond his game flaws and contract. Fact: Gortat started this whole mess. Every team has their hang ups and dirty laundry, even GState. The difference is keeping it in house. Gortat decided to air everything out in the media with his passive aggressive nonsense.

You had people here calling out Wall because he wore sunglasses to a game and the camera just happened to catch him smiling after a loss? And you want to talk about media racism? GTFO.

Some of you want to act like your hate is subjective but moon light on other boards gas lighting Wall. I won't call any of you out but drop the holier than thou garbage and just say you don't like the dude, and stop with the narrative around a guy none of you know nothing about.

Wall is lazy
Wall doesn't want to win
Wall is a lockeroom cancer
....and yeah. We're better without Wall.

Fake News!

I am going to respond to this only because I think it is pointed at me - correct me if I am wrong but...

I didn't call Wall out because he wore sunglasses. I didn't weigh in on the Gortat/Wall beef. I didn't call Wall out on being a bad person. I didn't call Wall out on being lazy. I didn't call Wall out about not wanting to win. I didn't call Wall out on being a cancer.

I DID say that we would be better off without Wall's supermax. I do feel we will be hamstrung by that contract and our current $107M in contracts for four players. I would be happy to discuss that elephant in the room.

If you didn't say any of those things, why do you think I was talking about you? I didn't know your position until now lol.

[DCZards]

I don't disagree - but what is the difference between 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3? We were still bounced in the first round?

And my point is not about Wall in isolation - it is about Wall as a supermax. Are we playing to be in the top tier of the east over time or is the bottom tier just getting into the playoffs okay. I think that Wall and the supermax are cement shoes.

I clearly don't think that Wall & supermax is going to cut it, that's all - nothing more.

And again, from March 10th on we had Otto hurt, Oubre who couldn't hit a 3 pointer to save his life and Beal who had completely run out of gas and couldn't hit anything in the 4th quarter.

I'll concede that the Zards could be hamstrung by Wall's supermax salary. That's certainly a real possibility. But that remains to be seen...and right now it is what it is as it relates to Wall's contract situation.

So the idea of blowing the team up or fretting over the future salary of a single player doesn't work for me at this juncture.

Meanwhile, here's what I see: I see a Zards team with three all-star level players (Wall, Beal & Porter); a top ten center (Howard) coming off a very good season; two young players (Oubre & Sato) who should continue to get better; a slightly improved bench (Rivers & Green); and an 18 year old (Brown) and 20 year old (Bryant) who look like they could be solid contributors down the road.

That team is capable of winning 50 games next season, if healthy.

Yes, advancing to the ECF seems unlikely given that the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers all look better than the Zards on paper. But that's why they play the games isn't it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What a load of revisionist history bs on Wall. Sorry but the majority of the hate of Wall on this board goes way beyond his game flaws and contract. Fact: Gortat started this whole mess. Every team has their hang ups and dirty laundry, even GState. The difference is keeping it in house. Gortat decided to air everything out in the media with his passive aggressive nonsense.

You had people here calling out Wall because he wore sunglasses to a game and the camera just happened to catch him smiling after a loss? And you want to talk about media racism? GTFO.

Some of you want to act like your hate is subjective but moon light on other boards gas lighting Wall. I won't call any of you out but drop the holier than thou garbage and just say you don't like the dude, and stop with the narrative around a guy none of you know nothing about.

Wall is lazy
Wall doesn't want to win
Wall is a lockeroom cancer
....and yeah. We're better without Wall.

Fake News!

Nah that's not me. I like his Dougie dance. I think his sunglass game is strong. None of that has a thing to do with on the court.

I don't like what he does in crunch time. My perception is that he criticized other members of the team while not taking full responsibility for his shortcomings as a player. I get mad at Wall when I think of the matchups. Guys like Lowry, Wright, Schroder, Teague, and Isaiah Thomas have all had strong games against him in playoffs when Washington has been eliminated.

Instead of holding the ball and taking a forced shot I think John needs to concentrate on making the best play even if that leads to another player besides him or Bradley Beal taking the shot. He also needs to pick up his energy and intensity on the defensive end at the end of games.

What I don't like is calling out lesser players and not taking responsibility as a leader. I also don't like a player failing the same way again and again. Some of this is on the coach, though.

Sent from my LG-TP260 using RealGM mobile app

[dckingsfan]

I don't disagree - but what is the difference between 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3? We were still bounced in the first round?

And my point is not about Wall in isolation - it is about Wall as a supermax. Are we playing to be in the top tier of the east over time or is the bottom tier just getting into the playoffs okay. I think that Wall and the supermax are cement shoes.

I clearly don't think that Wall & supermax is going to cut it, that's all - nothing more.

And again, from March 10th on we had Otto hurt, Oubre who couldn't hit a 3 pointer to save his life and Beal who had completely run out of gas and couldn't hit anything in the 4th quarter.

I'll concede that the Zards could be hamstrung by Wall's supermax salary. That's certainly a real possibility. But that remains to be seen...and right now it is what it is as it relates to Wall's contract situation.

So the idea of blowing the team up or fretting over the future salary of a single player doesn't work for me at this juncture.

Meanwhile, here's what I see: I see a Zards team with three all-star level players (Wall, Beal & Porter); a top ten center (Howard) coming off a very good season; two young players (Oubre & Sato) who should continue to get better; a slightly improved bench (Rivers & Green); and an 18 year old (Brown) and 20 year old (Bryant) who look like they could be solid contributors down the road.

That team is capable of winning 50 games next season, if healthy.

Yes, advancing to the ECF seems unlikely given that the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers all look better than the Zards on paper. But that's why they play the games isn't it.

Gotcha - I understand how you see the team. You believe the team could finish in the top 4 of the east with 50+ wins. No reason to blow that up.

I see a team without a top 20 player, who has supermaxed a player that struggles to make it into the top 50 argument, that will probably win between 40 and 48 games, will not be in the top 4 in the east and will either be bounced in the first or second round. I would say, move on from Wall while we can still trade him.

Your argument is legit - respectfully agree to disagree on the way forward.

BTW, I agree with you - this isn't John Wall's fault - he didn't offer himself a supermax contract

[ClutchDJ]

I don't disagree - but what is the difference between 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3? We were still bounced in the first round?

And my point is not about Wall in isolation - it is about Wall as a supermax. Are we playing to be in the top tier of the east over time or is the bottom tier just getting into the playoffs okay. I think that Wall and the supermax are cement shoes.

I clearly don't think that Wall & supermax is going to cut it, that's all - nothing more.

And again, from March 10th on we had Otto hurt, Oubre who couldn't hit a 3 pointer to save his life and Beal who had completely run out of gas and couldn't hit anything in the 4th quarter.

I'll concede that the Zards could be hamstrung by Wall's supermax salary. That's certainly a real possibility. But that remains to be seen...and right now it is what it is as it relates to Wall's contract situation.

So the idea of blowing the team up or fretting over the future salary of a single player doesn't work for me at this juncture.

Meanwhile, here's what I see: I see a Zards team with three all-star level players (Wall, Beal & Porter); a top ten center (Howard) coming off a very good season; two young players (Oubre & Sato) who should continue to get better; a slightly improved bench (Rivers & Green); and an 18 year old (Brown) and 20 year old (Bryant) who look like they could be solid contributors down the road.

That team is capable of winning 50 games next season, if healthy.

Yes, advancing to the ECF seems unlikely given that the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers all look better than the Zards on paper. But that's why they play the games isn't it.

Gotcha - I understand how you see the team. You believe the team could finish in the top 4 of the east with 50+ wins. No reason to blow that up.

I see a team without a top 20 player, who has supermaxed a player that struggles to make it into the top 50 argument, that will probably win between 40 and 48 games, will not be in the top 4 in the east and will either be bounced in the first or second round. I would say, move on from Wall while we can still trade him.

Your argument is legit - respectfully agree to disagree on the way forward.

BTW, I agree with you - this isn't John Wall's fault - he didn't offer himself a supermax contract

This is....this is something.

[BigA]

I don't disagree - but what is the difference between 4-0, 4-1, 4-2 and 4-3? We were still bounced in the first round?

And my point is not about Wall in isolation - it is about Wall as a supermax. Are we playing to be in the top tier of the east over time or is the bottom tier just getting into the playoffs okay. I think that Wall and the supermax are cement shoes.

I clearly don't think that Wall & supermax is going to cut it, that's all - nothing more.

And again, from March 10th on we had Otto hurt, Oubre who couldn't hit a 3 pointer to save his life and Beal who had completely run out of gas and couldn't hit anything in the 4th quarter.

I'll concede that the Zards could be hamstrung by Wall's supermax salary. That's certainly a real possibility. But that remains to be seen...and right now it is what it is as it relates to Wall's contract situation.

So the idea of blowing the team up or fretting over the future salary of a single player doesn't work for me at this juncture.

Meanwhile, here's what I see: I see a Zards team with three all-star level players (Wall, Beal & Porter); a top ten center (Howard) coming off a very good season; two young players (Oubre & Sato) who should continue to get better; a slightly improved bench (Rivers & Green); and an 18 year old (Brown) and 20 year old (Bryant) who look like they could be solid contributors down the road.

That team is capable of winning 50 games next season, if healthy.

Yes, advancing to the ECF seems unlikely given that the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers all look better than the Zards on paper. But that's why they play the games isn't it.

Gotcha - I understand how you see the team. You believe the team could finish in the top 4 of the east with 50+ wins. No reason to blow that up.

I see a team without a top 20 player, who has supermaxed a player that struggles to make it into the top 50 argument, that will probably win between 40 and 48 games, will not be in the top 4 in the east and will either be bounced in the first or second round. I would say, move on from Wall while we can still trade him.

Your argument is legit - respectfully agree to disagree on the way forward.

BTW, I agree with you - this isn't John Wall's fault - he didn't offer himself a supermax contract

I'm more on dckingsfan's side of the general argument, but I think John is arguably a top 20 player and pretty clearly a top 30 player. Saying that he "struggles to make the top 50 argument" isn't fair IMO.

[dckingsfan]

I'll concede that the Zards could be hamstrung by Wall's supermax salary. That's certainly a real possibility. But that remains to be seen...and right now it is what it is as it relates to Wall's contract situation.

So the idea of blowing the team up or fretting over the future salary of a single player doesn't work for me at this juncture.

Meanwhile, here's what I see: I see a Zards team with three all-star level players (Wall, Beal & Porter); a top ten center (Howard) coming off a very good season; two young players (Oubre & Sato) who should continue to get better; a slightly improved bench (Rivers & Green); and an 18 year old (Brown) and 20 year old (Bryant) who look like they could be solid contributors down the road.

That team is capable of winning 50 games next season, if healthy.

Yes, advancing to the ECF seems unlikely given that the Celtics, Raptors, and Sixers all look better than the Zards on paper. But that's why they play the games isn't it.

Gotcha - I understand how you see the team. You believe the team could finish in the top 4 of the east with 50+ wins. No reason to blow that up.

I see a team without a top 20 player, who has supermaxed a player that struggles to make it into the top 50 argument, that will probably win between 40 and 48 games, will not be in the top 4 in the east and will either be bounced in the first or second round. I would say, move on from Wall while we can still trade him.

Your argument is legit - respectfully agree to disagree on the way forward.

BTW, I agree with you - this isn't John Wall's fault - he didn't offer himself a supermax contract

I'm more on dckingsfan's side of the general argument, but I think John is arguably a top 20 player and pretty clearly a top 30 player. Saying that he "struggles to make the top 50 argument" isn't fair IMO.

You make a good point - If I phrased it as "struggles to make the top 50 argument due to health" would that make more sense? Can we agree he wasn't a top 30 player last year? I didn't have him as a top 30 player the year before either.

[DCZards]

You make a good point - If I phrased it as "struggles to make the top 50 argument due to health" would that make more sense? Can we agree he wasn't a top 30 player last year? I didn't have him as a top 30 player the year before either.

Two seasons ago, a healthy Wall averaged 23 pts. on 45% shooting, was third in the NBA in assists, led the NBA in total steals (2nd in steals per game), shot 80% from the FT line AND was third team all-NBA. Kinda hard to argue that he wasn't a top 30 player that year.

(He did have far too many TOs though. )

[dckingsfan]

You make a good point - If I phrased it as "struggles to make the top 50 argument due to health" would that make more sense? Can we agree he wasn't a top 30 player last year? I didn't have him as a top 30 player the year before either.

Two seasons ago, a healthy Wall averaged 23 pts. on 45% shooting, was third in the NBA in assists, led the NBA in total steals, shot 80% from the FT line AND was third team all-NBA. Kinda hard to argue that he wasn't a top 30 player that year.

(He did have far too many TOs though. )

At a minimum I have the following as better that year:
Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Rudy Gobert, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Stephen Curry, Nikola Jokic, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Damian Lillard, Clint Capela, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Andre Iguodala, DeMar DeRozan and Draymond Green. And I wouldn't supermax all of these players.

The others I have we could fight over - I don't have him breaking the top 30 that year.

And this year - I think we could agree - he didn't sniff top 50. Well, maybe we don't agree on that either. But maybe he will improve over the next couple of years.

[BigA]

Gotcha - I understand how you see the team. You believe the team could finish in the top 4 of the east with 50+ wins. No reason to blow that up.

I see a team without a top 20 player, who has supermaxed a player that struggles to make it into the top 50 argument, that will probably win between 40 and 48 games, will not be in the top 4 in the east and will either be bounced in the first or second round. I would say, move on from Wall while we can still trade him.

Your argument is legit - respectfully agree to disagree on the way forward.

BTW, I agree with you - this isn't John Wall's fault - he didn't offer himself a supermax contract

I'm more on dckingsfan's side of the general argument, but I think John is arguably a top 20 player and pretty clearly a top 30 player. Saying that he "struggles to make the top 50 argument" isn't fair IMO.

You make a good point - If I phrased it as "struggles to make the top 50 argument due to health" would that make more sense? Can we agree he wasn't a top 30 player last year? I didn't have him as a top 30 player the year before either.

Sure, it's certainly reasonable to make those arguments. And to be concerned about his level of play going forward, and especially whether his play will justify the supermax. That's the broad argument here.

[DCZards]

At a minimum I have the following as better that year:
Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Rudy Gobert, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Stephen Curry, Nikola Jokic, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Damian Lillard, Clint Capela, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Andre Iguodala, DeMar DeRozan and Draymond Green. And I wouldn't supermax all of these players.

Iggy and Capela did not have a better 2016-17 season than Wall. And it's debatable that DeRozan and Lillard had better seasons. Wall was easily a top 20-25 player in 2016-17.

Why is it so hard for you to give Wall the props he deserves for an outstanding 2016-17 season?

[dckingsfan]

At a minimum I have the following as better that year:
Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Rudy Gobert, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Stephen Curry, Nikola Jokic, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Damian Lillard, Clint Capela, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Andre Iguodala, DeMar DeRozan and Draymond Green. And I wouldn't supermax all of these players.

Iggy and Capela did not have a better 2016-17 season than Wall. And it's debatable that DeRozan and Lillard had better seasons. Wall was easily a top 20-25 player in 2016-17.

[payitforward]

...The Zards struggled mightily without Wall the last 6 weeks or so of the regular season...and probably would have been swept by Toronto in the playoffs if Wall had not returned.

They struggled without Wall, yes -- & with an injured & significantly hampered Otto Porter, with Brad Beal looking/performing worn down from having played almost 20% than in any previous season, with Kieff at his usual journeyman level, with Oubre in the down part of his year, with Mike Scott at the nadir of his up-then-down-down-down season, with Gortat's eye on the exit sign, with Mahinmi committing 8 fouls per 40 minutes, with Jason Smith unplayable, with McCullough unplayable, with Meeks far from effective, & with Frazier & the corpse of Sessions as the rest of our bench except for Satoransky.

John Wall is an outstanding point guard. When he's out we are a worse team. Sato had a fantastic season. When he doesn't get minutes, we are a worse team. Otto Porter is one of the best young players in the league. When he's injured we are a worse team. Brad Beal is a really good SG. When he plays almost 3000 minutes in a season, he loses effectiveness.

Thinking of this team as "John Wall (& some other guys)" is not a way to understand anything. He's not LeBron James, not Michael Jordan, not Magic Johnson. He's a terrific player when he's at the top of his game, but he is not a superstar.

In his very best year so far, his peak performance, John Wall was among (not near the apex of) the top ten guards in the league. That is dxmn good! Even at his best, however, he isn't on the same tier as James Harden, Chris Paul, Steph Curry or Russell Westbrook. &, of course, there'll be young players who come along & are better than he is (& no doubt better than at least some of those other guys too). Especially since John is about to start his 9th NBA season. He's in the 2d half of his career. Players tend to begin their decline as they get into the meat of that 2d half.

None of this is a criticism of John Wall -- far from it; there is no reason to criticize him -- unless you think that anything short of unqualified glorification (e.g. calling him "the Wallstar" rather than by his name) is a criticism. & if that's what you think, then maybe the word "think" is being misused in the description.

[Dat2U]

The Wizards are far more hamstrung by Ernie Grunfeld than the are by John Wall's supermax!

[dckingsfan]

The Wizards are far more hamstrung by Ernie Grunfeld than the are by John Wall's supermax!

Or another way to say it - who gave John Wall the supermax!

[payitforward]

At a minimum I have the following as better that year:
Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Rudy Gobert, James Harden, Jimmy Butler, Stephen Curry, Nikola Jokic, Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Karl-Anthony Towns, Anthony Davis, Damian Lillard, Clint Capela, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Andre Iguodala, DeMar DeRozan and Draymond Green. And I wouldn't supermax all of these players.

Iggy and Capela did not have a better 2016-17 season than Wall. And it's debatable that DeRozan and Lillard had better seasons. Wall was easily a top 20-25 player in 2016-17.

Why is it so hard for you to give Wall the props he deserves for an outstanding 2016-17 season?

But, there are only 20 guys on his list!!

Moreover, why would anyone want to deny Wall props for a terrific season?

In fact, using a number of widely-employed metrics, John Wall ranks between 8-10 among NBA guards that year. That's 2 out of 5 positions, so I have no problem with the idea that he was among the 25 best NBA players that year.

But, that's the only year he ranks as high as that. Compare to guys like Chris Paul, Harden & Curry. Year in year out those guys are among the best 8-10 players in the league -- at any position!

[DCZards]

But, there are only 20 guys on his list!!

Moreover, why would anyone want to deny Wall props for a terrific season?

In fact, using a number of widely-employed metrics, John Wall ranks between 8-10 among NBA guards that year. That's 2 out of 5 positions, so I have no problem with the idea that he was among the 25 best NBA players that year.

But, that's the only year he ranks as high as that. Compare to guys like Chris Paul, Harden & Curry. Year in year out those guys are among the best 8-10 players in the league -- at any position!

No one is suggesting that Wall is in the class of Paul, Harden and Curry...certainly not me. I was simply making the argument that it was silly to suggest that Wall was not a top 30 player during the 2016-17 season. It sounds like you agree with me.

What's wrong with Wallstar? It's a cute nickname. Now that I know you don't like it I think I'll use it more often.

[payitforward]

But, there are only 20 guys on his list!!

Moreover, why would anyone want to deny Wall props for a terrific season?

In fact, using a number of widely-employed metrics, John Wall ranks between 8-10 among NBA guards that year. That's 2 out of 5 positions, so I have no problem with the idea that he was among the 25 best NBA players -- that year.

But, that's the only year he ranks so high. Compare to guys like Chris Paul, Harden & Curry. Year in year out those guys are among the best 8-10 players in the league -- at any position!

No one is suggesting that Wall is in the class of Paul, Harden and Curry...certainly not me. I was simply making the argument that it was silly to suggest that Wall was not a top 30 player during the 2016-17 season. It sounds likenyou agree with me.
What's wrong with Wallstar? It's a cute nickname. Now that I know you don't like it I think I'll use it more often.

Ok "Zardspostingstar" -- you do that!

Wall had a great year in 2016-17. I don't see why he can't do that again 2 or 3 times, & I hope he does -- starting w/ the upcoming season!

[NatP4]

The Wizards are far more hamstrung by Ernie Grunfeld than the are by John Wall's supermax!

yeah having the extra 20 million that Wall will make over other max players certainly wouldn't help us at all. Not like we could steal away Clint Capela with an offer sheet or sign Tyreke Evans, Kyle O'Quinn, and Trevor Ariza.

[dckingsfan]

The Wizards are far more hamstrung by Ernie Grunfeld than the are by John Wall's supermax!

yeah having the extra 20 million that Wall will make over other max players certainly wouldn't help us at all. Not like we could steal away Clint Capela with an offer sheet or sign Tyreke Evans, Kyle O'Quinn, and Trevor Ariza.

Although the impact of that would be in the future. The stupid Nicholson, Smith & Mahimni signings are what are killing us now.